Dual Clutch Transmissions

MistaVauros · 12-05-2011, 11:25 PM

I'm not sure if there is a thread out there regarding this topic, but I am curious how the DCT stacks up against the competition. Anyone here have experience with the Porsche's PDK, Mercedes-Benz's SpeedShift, Mitsubishi's SST, and Audi's S-Tronic?

Which one shifts the fastest, has the best rev-matching, best ratios, etc...

Please reply with your experience!

Arben72 · 12-05-2011, 11:53 PM

I can help you a bit here. I've driven a mistibishi evo, and m3 with dct, and a c63 which I'm not sure if it has dct. The m3 had the best out of all categories in speed and throttle blips. The evo and c63's dct where about equal to each other but I think the evo's throttle blips where a bit louder and more abrupt. I haven't driven a pdk Porsche or Audi s line to tell you about them but I hope I helped.

HotIce · 12-06-2011, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arben72

I can help you a bit here. I've driven a mistibishi evo, and m3 with dct, and a c63 which I'm not sure if it has dct. The m3 had the best out of all categories in speed and throttle blips. The evo and c63's dct where about equal to each other but I think the evo's throttle blips where a bit louder and more abrupt. I haven't driven a pdk Porsche or Audi s line to tell you about them but I hope I helped.

The C63 doesn't have a DCT. It basically has a wet clutch instead of a torque converter(Think motorcycle gearbox). From the video on youtube, it can change gears in 100ms. The M3's DCT has come a long way and feels really good. There was a review a couple weeks ago by someone that compared the Caymans PDK, the GT-R's DCT and the M-DCT.

MistaVauros · 12-06-2011, 12:11 AM

I guess the real comparison comes down to PDK vs DCT...

rdollie · 12-06-2011, 12:39 AM

Not completely. I actually like the PDK experience a bit more in the Cayman but that was also in part because it was connected to that flat 6 and the combination simply feels more sporty and engaging that what we get in the M. I found Audi's S-tronic to be VERY comparable to our DCT. Mercedes wet clutch AMG automatic doesn't come close in feel but is a very quick shifter and somewhat closer in speed to the DCT than the old SMG in my experience.

aajami · 12-06-2011, 12:59 AM

Are Audi's S-tronic, Porsche's PDK, Lamborghini's e-Gear, and VW's DKG all sourced from the same manufacturer?

And isn't the MB AMG SLS transmission a true DCT?

mkoesel · 12-06-2011, 08:30 AM

Hot|Ice posted a thread on this awhile back. Hunt it down.

There have been others in the past, though mostly comparing technical attributes rather than firsthand driving impressions.

Mercedes does have a DCT in the SLS.

All of their other AMG cars use planetary boxes, most (all now?) with a wet clutch rather than a torque converter these days. These are not DCT and cannot have two gears engaged simultaneously.

If you check wikipedia, there is a good (but maybe slightly outdated) list of which OEMs use which supplier's DCT.

Our Jetta TDI has DSG and I love it, but I can't even begin to compare it to my M3 because the car won't rev past 4200 RPM (yes, exactly half the M3 RPM), it lacks paddles, and it's generally just a completly different car. But it does shift very fast.

saeyedoc · 12-06-2011, 10:59 AM

I have both PDK and DCT, haven't had the E90 long enough to make a fair comparison, but I think they're fairly close.
DCT has more options, have mostly been driving in S4 to get the throttle blips.
PDK I drive in regular mode on my commute to work, makes a big difference in gas mileage, getting >20 now. Sport mode is more fun, but can be jerky at very low speeds. Sport mode is good for just tooling around on roads and Sport+ was amazing on the track. Held gears to red line, one less thing to concentrate on while on the track. I don't use the manual shift much in the Porsche, the transmission seems to read my mind most of the time.
Will have to get more seat time with the D modes on the DCT to make a fair comparison.

valeram · 12-06-2011, 02:46 PM

I've got the new 2012 C63 MCT. The M3 DCT is still way better than the C63 MCT. One annoying thing with the MCT is that, the car must be stationary when you change the shifting mode from C/S/S+ to M (instructions from the manual). Some AMG drivers change the trans mode to M even when the car is moving and reported that no harm was done, I don't know about that!

The shift in the M3 DCT is a lot faster and smooth compared to the C63 MCT.

ShadeD1 · 12-06-2011, 06:36 PM

Tracked an 2008 3.2 Audi TT with a DSG for almost 3 years before I got my M3. I liked it's transmission better on the street but not as much on the track. Smoother (but slower) shifts, almost dainty even. I had the transmission "flashed" which greatly improved it's response and behavior, particularly in automatic mode.

sqweak · 12-07-2011, 09:37 PM

FWIW, I drove an Lancer Ralliart ("Evo Lite") with SST for a little over a year. I hated it, and as a result didn't even consider the DCT.

(not trying to start 6mt vs dct here, just my experience)

To me it just felt like an automatic. Even in sports/with the paddles. Sure, it gave you some control but just felt like the "autostick" trans of old to me. Even running it constantly in manual just didn't do it for me, so I switched back to 6MT. Couldn't be happier.

-=Hot|Ice=- · 12-07-2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by valeram

I've got the new 2012 C63 MCT. The M3 DCT is still way better than the C63 MCT. One annoying thing with the MCT is that, the car must be stationary when you change the shifting mode from C/S/S+ to M (instructions from the manual). Some AMG drivers change the trans mode to M even when the car is moving and reported that no harm was done, I don't know about that!

The shift in the M3 DCT is a lot faster and smooth compared to the C63 MCT.

Can you take some pics of the C63 and share them so it makes my wait that much less painful?

Nine · 12-07-2011, 10:12 PM

You know you are in good company when you are in the same sentence as MB SLS, Ferrari 458 italia, Ferrari California, the DCT in the M3 is not fast, it's INSTANT.

I personally have not had extensive time with PDK, I will be test driving soon, I've heard nothing but great things about PDK too.

MistaVauros · 12-07-2011, 10:27 PM

I think I just might go test drive a Cayman with PDK just to experience it for myself. I am also curious about how good the S Tronic will be when the Audi RS5 arrives next year.

valeram · 12-08-2011, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

Can you take some pics of the C63 and share them so it makes my wait that much less painful?

Here you go

mkoesel · 12-08-2011, 06:50 PM

LOL @ last pic.

Nice car tho. In sedan or coupe form that's a beast. Have a blast with it valeram.

Z K · 12-09-2011, 11:41 AM

The Mitsubishi Evo X's TC-SST has more in common with the GT-R than any other car. It is developed by Getrag specifically for the Evo. It isn't very refined to drive but not quite as extreme as the GT-R's transmission which makes a ton of noise all the time. It also has a Super-Sport mode which can be accessed by holding the shift speed selector for a while. Kinda like a "race" mode that shifts very fast and hard. It also has a Launch Control mode which is accessed via Super-Sport.

Some tuners have re-programmed the TCU (transmission control unit) to shift and feel like the GT-R transmission in R mode. Upgraded clutch packs and hardware is also available aftermarket to handle high power applications above 600whp. Although very few tuners know how to tune the transmission to handle high power. The manual transmission is preferred among tuners for high power applications.

I didn't like driving it much as it felt too much like an automatic in normal driving so I had a manual transmission.

FVM3 · 12-09-2011, 02:48 PM

I always think that M3 has the best DCT. I've driven tons of DCT cars such as GTR, gti, EVO...

MistaVauros · 12-10-2011, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christopherchenm

I always think that M3 has the best DCT. I've driven tons of DCT cars such as GTR, gti, EVO...

DCT better than GT-R's twin-clutch transmission?! Hmm...

M3ryder55 · 12-10-2011, 10:16 PM

i know this much, i absolutely love it despite prior issues with my original tranny that got swapped out at 3k.. not to mention a terrible experience with a dealership

and my friend has a v10 audi r8. and even he admits my dct clowns his flappy paddle

aznkuja328 · 12-11-2011, 04:13 AM

forget about the mct on c63. it's nothing close to m-dct.

gthal · 12-11-2011, 05:02 AM

MCT on the C63 is a step down in performance from the DCT. It is a very capable transmission and is very fast for upshifts and downshifts. However, compared to the DCT it isn't as "immediate." I never felt that it wasn't fast enough or responsive enough but the DCT's reactions and timing are perfect. The mating of the M3s engine and DCT are a perfect combination IMO and in some ways, the DCT is the most technically amazing part of the M3.

12-05-2011, 11:25 PM	#1
MistaVauros ///M... Nuff Said. 217 Rep 585 Posts Drives: 2020 M5 Competition Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Maryland iTrader: (0) Garage List 2020 BMW M5C [0.00]	Dual Clutch Transmissions - Comparison I'm not sure if there is a thread out there regarding this topic, but I am curious how the DCT stacks up against the competition. Anyone here have experience with the Porsche's PDK, Mercedes-Benz's SpeedShift, Mitsubishi's SST, and Audi's S-Tronic? Which one shifts the fastest, has the best rev-matching, best ratios, etc... Please reply with your experience! __________________ Present: 2020 M5 Competition (I'm back!) Past: '17 Audi R8 V10 Plus, '13 M5 Comp, '13 X5M, '13 GT-R, '12 GT-R Black Edition '11 E92 M3 ZCP, '05 E46 M3 ZCP, '03 E46 M3 "Dream as if you'll live forever, Live as if you'll die today" - J. Dean
	Appreciate 0 Tweet Quote

12-05-2011, 11:53 PM	#2
Arben72 Banned 50 Rep 462 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Illinois iTrader: (0)	I can help you a bit here. I've driven a mistibishi evo, and m3 with dct, and a c63 which I'm not sure if it has dct. The m3 had the best out of all categories in speed and throttle blips. The evo and c63's dct where about equal to each other but I think the evo's throttle blips where a bit louder and more abrupt. I haven't driven a pdk Porsche or Audi s line to tell you about them but I hope I helped.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-06-2011, 12:11 AM	#4
MistaVauros ///M... Nuff Said. 217 Rep 585 Posts Drives: 2020 M5 Competition Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Maryland iTrader: (0) Garage List 2020 BMW M5C [0.00]	I guess the real comparison comes down to PDK vs DCT... __________________ Present: 2020 M5 Competition (I'm back!) Past: '17 Audi R8 V10 Plus, '13 M5 Comp, '13 X5M, '13 GT-R, '12 GT-R Black Edition '11 E92 M3 ZCP, '05 E46 M3 ZCP, '03 E46 M3 "Dream as if you'll live forever, Live as if you'll die today" - J. Dean
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-06-2011, 12:39 AM	#5
rdollie Second Lieutenant 2 Rep 264 Posts Drives: 2009 M3 DCT Sedan Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Seattle area iTrader: (0)	Not completely. I actually like the PDK experience a bit more in the Cayman but that was also in part because it was connected to that flat 6 and the combination simply feels more sporty and engaging that what we get in the M. I found Audi's S-tronic to be VERY comparable to our DCT. Mercedes wet clutch AMG automatic doesn't come close in feel but is a very quick shifter and somewhat closer in speed to the DCT than the old SMG in my experience.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-06-2011, 12:59 AM	#6
aajami Brigadier General 432 Rep 4,567 Posts Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Manhattan Beach, CA iTrader: (4)	Are Audi's S-tronic, Porsche's PDK, Lamborghini's e-Gear, and VW's DKG all sourced from the same manufacturer? And isn't the MB AMG SLS transmission a true DCT? __________________ '09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather \| ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL \| link 1 / link 2 Mods: M Performance exhaust \| ZCP retrofit \| Euro airbox \| GTS DCT flash \| JPN 240 ECU flash \| Euro LCI taillights \| CRT lip \| OEM alarm retrofit \| Space Gray bumper plugs \| BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-06-2011, 08:30 AM	#7
mkoesel Moderator 7515 Rep 19,368 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	Hot\|Ice posted a thread on this awhile back. Hunt it down. There have been others in the past, though mostly comparing technical attributes rather than firsthand driving impressions. Mercedes does have a DCT in the SLS. All of their other AMG cars use planetary boxes, most (all now?) with a wet clutch rather than a torque converter these days. These are not DCT and cannot have two gears engaged simultaneously. If you check wikipedia, there is a good (but maybe slightly outdated) list of which OEMs use which supplier's DCT. Our Jetta TDI has DSG and I love it, but I can't even begin to compare it to my M3 because the car won't rev past 4200 RPM (yes, exactly half the M3 RPM), it lacks paddles, and it's generally just a completly different car. But it does shift very fast.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-06-2011, 10:59 AM	#8
saeyedoc Captain 284 Rep 835 Posts Drives: 2013 Carrera S, 2013 Panny GTS Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, TX iTrader: (0)	I have both PDK and DCT, haven't had the E90 long enough to make a fair comparison, but I think they're fairly close. DCT has more options, have mostly been driving in S4 to get the throttle blips. PDK I drive in regular mode on my commute to work, makes a big difference in gas mileage, getting >20 now. Sport mode is more fun, but can be jerky at very low speeds. Sport mode is good for just tooling around on roads and Sport+ was amazing on the track. Held gears to red line, one less thing to concentrate on while on the track. I don't use the manual shift much in the Porsche, the transmission seems to read my mind most of the time. Will have to get more seat time with the D modes on the DCT to make a fair comparison.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-06-2011, 02:46 PM	#9
valeram Major 37 Rep 1,413 Posts Drives: 992 TTS, 991.2 GT3 T, F80 M3 C Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Dublin, OH iTrader: (0)	I've got the new 2012 C63 MCT. The M3 DCT is still way better than the C63 MCT. One annoying thing with the MCT is that, the car must be stationary when you change the shifting mode from C/S/S+ to M (instructions from the manual). Some AMG drivers change the trans mode to M even when the car is moving and reported that no harm was done, I don't know about that! The shift in the M3 DCT is a lot faster and smooth compared to the C63 MCT.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-06-2011, 06:36 PM	#10
ShadeD1 First Lieutenant 38 Rep 330 Posts Drives: 2011 X5 xDrive 35i Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Houston, TX iTrader: (0)	Tracked an 2008 3.2 Audi TT with a DSG for almost 3 years before I got my M3. I liked it's transmission better on the street but not as much on the track. Smoother (but slower) shifts, almost dainty even. I had the transmission "flashed" which greatly improved it's response and behavior, particularly in automatic mode.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-07-2011, 09:37 PM	#11
sqweak Private 7 Rep 78 Posts Drives: 2013 328i M-Sport Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Westside, SoCal iTrader: (0)	FWIW, I drove an Lancer Ralliart ("Evo Lite") with SST for a little over a year. I hated it, and as a result didn't even consider the DCT. (not trying to start 6mt vs dct here, just my experience) To me it just felt like an automatic. Even in sports/with the paddles. Sure, it gave you some control but just felt like the "autostick" trans of old to me. Even running it constantly in manual just didn't do it for me, so I switched back to 6MT. Couldn't be happier.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-07-2011, 10:12 PM	#13
Nine Banned 49 Rep 1,922 Posts Drives: Not ZCP, FML. Join Date: May 2010 Location: DC, Miami, NYC iTrader: (2)	You know you are in good company when you are in the same sentence as MB SLS, Ferrari 458 italia, Ferrari California, the DCT in the M3 is not fast, it's INSTANT. I personally have not had extensive time with PDK, I will be test driving soon, I've heard nothing but great things about PDK too.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-07-2011, 10:27 PM	#14
MistaVauros ///M... Nuff Said. 217 Rep 585 Posts Drives: 2020 M5 Competition Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Maryland iTrader: (0) Garage List 2020 BMW M5C [0.00]	I think I just might go test drive a Cayman with PDK just to experience it for myself. I am also curious about how good the S Tronic will be when the Audi RS5 arrives next year. __________________ Present: 2020 M5 Competition (I'm back!) Past: '17 Audi R8 V10 Plus, '13 M5 Comp, '13 X5M, '13 GT-R, '12 GT-R Black Edition '11 E92 M3 ZCP, '05 E46 M3 ZCP, '03 E46 M3 "Dream as if you'll live forever, Live as if you'll die today" - J. Dean
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-08-2011, 06:50 PM	#16
mkoesel Moderator 7515 Rep 19,368 Posts Drives: No BMW for now Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Canton, MI iTrader: (1)	LOL @ last pic. Nice car tho. In sedan or coupe form that's a beast. Have a blast with it valeram.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-09-2011, 11:41 AM	#17
Z K Major General 1889 Rep 5,506 Posts Drives: E90 M3, G20 M340i Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: San Francisco iTrader: (3)	The Mitsubishi Evo X's TC-SST has more in common with the GT-R than any other car. It is developed by Getrag specifically for the Evo. It isn't very refined to drive but not quite as extreme as the GT-R's transmission which makes a ton of noise all the time. It also has a Super-Sport mode which can be accessed by holding the shift speed selector for a while. Kinda like a "race" mode that shifts very fast and hard. It also has a Launch Control mode which is accessed via Super-Sport. Some tuners have re-programmed the TCU (transmission control unit) to shift and feel like the GT-R transmission in R mode. Upgraded clutch packs and hardware is also available aftermarket to handle high power applications above 600whp. Although very few tuners know how to tune the transmission to handle high power. The manual transmission is preferred among tuners for high power applications. I didn't like driving it much as it felt too much like an automatic in normal driving so I had a manual transmission.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-09-2011, 02:48 PM	#18
FVM3 Major General 273 Rep 5,751 Posts Drives: e92 m3, f30 328i Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Los Angeles iTrader: (2)	I always think that M3 has the best DCT. I've driven tons of DCT cars such as GTR, gti, EVO...
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-10-2011, 10:16 PM	#20
M3ryder55 Major 191 Rep 1,317 Posts Drives: 15' MW/SO Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Chatsworth, CA iTrader: (3)	i know this much, i absolutely love it despite prior issues with my original tranny that got swapped out at 3k.. not to mention a terrible experience with a dealership and my friend has a v10 audi r8. and even he admits my dct clowns his flappy paddle
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-11-2011, 04:13 AM	#21
aznkuja328 Private First Class 41 Rep 146 Posts Drives: F86 X6M F80 M3 991 GT3 Join Date: May 2010 Location: SoCal iTrader: (1)	forget about the mct on c63. it's nothing close to m-dct.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

12-11-2011, 05:02 AM	#22
gthal Major General 1904 Rep 5,678 Posts Drives: 2018 340i xDrive Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Canada iTrader: (2)	MCT on the C63 is a step down in performance from the DCT. It is a very capable transmission and is very fast for upshifts and downshifts. However, compared to the DCT it isn't as "immediate." I never felt that it wasn't fast enough or responsive enough but the DCT's reactions and timing are perfect. The mating of the M3s engine and DCT are a perfect combination IMO and in some ways, the DCT is the most technically amazing part of the M3.
	Appreciate 0 Quote