OT--Thinking of buying a 911?

[mhughett]

I've recently had thoughts of buying a used 911--mainly because I've never owned a Porsche and thought it might be fun to have one. So I've been looking at the Rennlist message boards for the 996 (1999-2004) and 997 (2005-now) models to see what everyone thinks about their cars. This has been quite the eye-opener. Most everyone on these boards that has one of these cars prior to MY2009 either has a new car warranty, extended warranty or is scared $hitless of the IMS (Intermediate Shaft) failing and blowing up their engine. I know the numbers show that the actual failure rate is probably less than 10% but to me, that is unacceptable. Quite a number of people on the board have written in about their failures and for the ones out of warranty, they have had to pony up $15k-$20k for new engines. Porsche has not owned up to this design flaw and if the car is out of warranty, it's just tough luck--regardless of whether the car was properly maintained or not. The interesting thing is that it seems to fail more in engines that are seldom driven or driven very gently.

Another twist on this is that one of the guys whose engine recently failed during a HDPE was told by his Porsche dealer that "these cars are not built for the track and any failures that occur while at the track are not covered under warranty". WTF??? Apparently, similar wording is in their owner's manual as well. The bottom line is that I would have no issue keeping my M past the warranty expiration as I have no such worries about this engine either on the street or at the track. I understand the 2009 and newer 911's have a new engine design that eliminated about 40% of the parts, including the IMS and they should be much more reliable. I just might have to keep the M a little longer so that I can save a few more pennies for a newer one.

[Mirko]

Originally Posted by mhughett

Another twist on this is that one of the guys whose engine recently failed during a HDPE was told by his Porsche dealer that "these cars are not built for the track and any failures that occur while at the track are not covered under warranty".

I remember reading that somewhere too. Do they use that line on a GT2 or GT3? How would they explain the scaffolding in the back of the car as a daily non track use car. lol

Would be funny if BMW was saying the same thing about the Z4M considering the marjority of their ad's for it were it driving on a racetrack.

I've tossed around the idea of a 911 in the future. Even thought of getting a Cayman S instead of the Z4M but reading the failures that people were having I didn't bother and stayed with BMW which I think was a better choice anyways.

[mhughett]

Originally Posted by Mirko

I remember reading that somewhere too. Do they use that line on a GT2 or GT3? How would they explain the scaffolding in the back of the car as a daily non track use car. lol

Would be funny if BMW was saying the same thing about the Z4M considering the marjority of their ad's for it were it driving on a racetrack.

I've tossed around the idea of a 911 in the future. Even thought of getting a Cayman S instead of the Z4M but reading the failures that people were having I didn't bother and stayed with BMW which I think was a better choice anyways.

Funny you mention the GT3 because the Porsche dealer that said HDPE would void warranties said that if you wanted to track the car, you should get the GT3, which apparently is built for the track. Maybe that's why all the new Porsche ads on TV show the young lady picking up her kids from school, the cowboy picking up stuff from Home Depot, and the business executive decompressing in his car in the parking garage. They've gone from building race cars to building commuter cars.

[ShakyDog]

Also remember that your 10% is probably much higher than actual (over inflated). It is the Internet and most people complain more than praise.

That said I would have no problem with an older Porch, my only concern is the nearest dealer is 2 hours away. Nearest BMW dealer, 10-15 minutes.

Steve

[Evan70]

I've looked at them before, and the IMS is a major concern. Personally, I wouldn't consider one that doesn't have a warranty/extended warranty on it. I talked about it with a really good independent Porsche mechanic, and his statement was that it's nowhere near as common as the forums make it sound, but that it does happen. He was figuring maybe 5% rate. The really interesting thing was that his view was if you get a low mileage car, make sure to get a warranty, but if you were looking at a high mileage car (80K+ miles) then you're probably ok as long as it passes a PPI (pre purchase inspection) by a good mechanic. His reasoning being that if it hasn't shown up by then, that it's not going to.

[Huz-Z]

This site seems to have a lot of good advice, plus they offer retrofit kits to help you avoid an IMS failure. I have no idea how good the info or the kits are.

http://www.lnengineering.com/boxster.html

Scroll to the bottom for the various kits.

[gcochard]

Originally Posted by mhughett

Funny you mention the GT3 because the Porsche dealer that said HDPE would void warranties said that if you wanted to track the car, you should get the GT3, which apparently is built for the track. Maybe that's why all the new Porsche ads on TV show the young lady picking up her kids from school, the cowboy picking up stuff from Home Depot, and the business executive decompressing in his car in the parking garage. They've gone from building race cars to building commuter cars.

HDPE is a type of plastic

Further reading on the IMS: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html

Edit: Huz-Z you beat me to it. The page I put up has info on failure rate though, they say failure rate is 10% by 100k, so that PPI info might not be great advice.

[Aries326]

I almost went with a used Boxter S instead of my Z4. I did research on the major failure rates and it isn't acceptable for a a luxury brand. I'm quite happy with my Z4.

[gcochard]

I'd have bought a porsche if they WERE replacing engines out of warranty, free new engine yay!

[RevsPlease]

Don't get a Boxster or Cayman!
996 carrera = good
997 carrera = bad. Lots of engine failure.
997.2 = good. They fixed all the shit wrong with the original 997.

We just sold our 996 and picked up an 11' 4S in PDK. Fantastic car.

[zBone]

Originally Posted by RevsPlease

Don't get a Boxster or Cayman!
996 carrera = good
997 carrera = bad. Lots of engine failure.
997.2 = good. They fixed all the shit wrong with the original 997.

We just sold our 996 and picked up an 11' 4S in PDK. Fantastic car.

Why not the Cayman? Just curios; I was looking at buying a Cayman before I stumbled upon the Z4MC, and I loved the styling better on the Z4 so that's what I've been pursuing - but I'd be interested to hear why I made the right decision :-)

[RevsPlease]

Originally Posted by torabone

Why not the Cayman? Just curios; I was looking at buying a Cayman before I stumbled upon the Z4MC, and I loved the styling better on the Z4 so that's what I've been pursuing - but I'd be interested to hear why I made the right decision :-)

Well for starters, certain model years of Cayman were plagued with oil starvation issues; leaving owners with blown motors, and often an outright refusal from Porsche to replace said engine on the basis of having seemingly unrelated "performance" modifications. Basically if you were doing so much as an auto-x and happened to have an aftermarket exhaust and encountered ( a common) engine failure, you were stuck footing the bill for the blown motor. That being the first reason you made the right choice, the second reason is a simple one: if you are going to buy a Porsche, do it right! Don't get a sissy cayman/Boxster, get a 911! You will thank yourself in the end. Take it from someone who is on their second 911

[mhughett]

Originally Posted by cliffhopper

HDPE is a type of plastic

Further reading on the IMS: http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html

Edit: Huz-Z you beat me to it. The page I put up has info on failure rate though, they say failure rate is 10% by 100k, so that PPI info might not be great advice.

Obviously a typo on my part (meant HPDE) but the funny part is that I was in the plastics business for 12 years and my company sold HDPE film and bags. I'm sure that's why I flipped the letters (high density poly-ethylene for those that are interested in the abbreviation).

[mhughett]

Originally Posted by RevsPlease

Don't get a Boxster or Cayman!
996 carrera = good
997 carrera = bad. Lots of engine failure.
997.2 = good. They fixed all the shit wrong with the original 997.

We just sold our 996 and picked up an 11' 4S in PDK. Fantastic car.

If my research is correct, the 996 and 997.1 Carrera's have the same issues with the IMS as the Cayman and Boxters (986/987). Failures are just as prevalent with the 996's as the 997's. They put a beefed up bearing in the models from about 2006 on but even these have still failed on numerous occasions. It seems to be kind of hit and miss.

I agree with you that Porsche did redesign the engines on all models effective with the MY2009's.

[bdn3d]

I remember hearing this awhile back so I assume all the bugs are gone...

http://www.newsday.com/classifieds/c...rvey-1.1819101


obviously the prices are a bit higher considering they are newer.

[chickdr]

This: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=436153 thread is a good one about IMS and possible avoidance by adding a warning device. I loved my 02 Boxster. No problems but I only had it for 4yrs/ 14K miles on a lease.

[Finnegan]

I agree with the posts about anything Porsche makes that isn't the most current model engine. Don't do it. It's as simple as that.

Most of you know I dumped my Gen I Cayman (great handling car BTW) because the motor is as fragile as fine crystal. Even if the car isn't taken to the track there's a lot of cases of the motor blowing up between 40K-60K miles. With all of the inherent oiling issues (AOS oil ingestion, single oil pump in the wrong place, oil starvation, and possibly an overall design flaw), a steering system that melts (common with even light track use), and a braking system that gets confused at speed with heavy braking and doesn't work, it wasn't a risk worth taking. If there's any doubt about that, take a look at this thread over on P9. If you're still not convinced, search on power steering coolers and ice pedal.

After spending a good chunk of time over on P9 and related Pforums, the biggest issue I have with Porsche is their attitude and approach with customers. Basically it boils down to them trying to find a way to blame the customer for the problem and refusing to cover things under warranty. Even those who have never taken their car to the track, or overreved find the warranty to be rather worthless. Some come through with getting coverage, but the fights required to get anything covered are prolonged and outrageous--it really is beyond belief the lengths they'll go to stick the costs to the customers. Even when people "win" they still often end up paying a good chunk out of pocket when under warranty.

Steering system melts? "You shouldn't drive our "race-breed" cars on the track." Engine blows up? "Well it's that axle-back exhaust, but we'll scope it, at 5K in your expense, to see if it's our fault (it never is), and then you can pay 15K for a new engine plus 5K for the scope--or you can just pay 15K for a new engine. Which do you want to do fella?" Nice. Sure, we're seen a lot of inept BMW mechanic stories here on Zpost, but all and all BMW seems to have come though and fixed the issues (or at least tried to fix the issues). Even with the camshaft bolt issue I have yet to here "well, you drove the car on the track, or you drove it too hard, it's your fault, that will be 2K to fix it buddy, too bad". Nope, they've fixed the problem and in some cases provided a new motor. Heck, my SA knows I track my car and they still fixed my diff and my headlights. No problem, no grief, no hassle. That doesn't seem to be the case with Porsche.

[EenyBear]

The 993 air-cooled Porsches seem pretty bomb-proof and sell at a premium over the 996 models. I've got a buddy with a 993 twin turbo and it's a sweet ride.

Yeah, the post 1998 IMS issue scared me right into the arms of my '07 Z4MC. Once there, I had no reason to look back.

Also, the low-end torque of the Z4M was reminiscent of a Gallardo I once had the pleasure of driving. And the Cayman S I was looking at had all it's power come online north of 5,000rpm and otherwise felt, to me, like a Corolla. Precise, but boring.

$0.02

[Swashplate]

Just Say No.

[esqu1re]

I guess I made the right choice too.

[jra]

modded 993's are a thing of beauty

[Jbs]

I have always wanted a 996 gt3... too bad about these motor issues. i haven't found many affordable cars i would want over the moupe otherwise :/