M3 myths and reality

[MaxL]

I have been looking at upgrading 335xi to an M3 instead of my initial plan of adding Boxer Spyder to supplement the 335xi to have a two-car stable. Two cars just do not work for me now.

Anyway, to me it seems that M3 is practically the best/only option for a car that is fund at the track and can be the only car in the family (of two, neither driving to work). I looked at pretty much anything under 80K mildly used - Carerra S (too impractical, especially for skiers & mountain bikers), GTR, AMG C63, Lexus IS-F, RS4, and M5. It seems that M3 is the best fit for my needs.

Then I looked at this board and saw a bunch of complaints about M3. So which of the following are true and to which extent? Not to cause a flame war - just just want to gather some kind of an FAQ to help new owners understand what they are getting into. So are these myths or reality?

1. Bad brakes for a track. There is a lot of bitching around, and it is easy to see that most people complain ONLY because they are convinced that quality of brakes is proportional to the number of cylinders. But still, there seem to be many legitimate concerns. After some research my conclusion is that 90+% of weekend track drivers will be happy with performance pads + fluid + possibly scoops, and only pros really need BBK. Is that a correct conclusion?

2. Suspension - not much criticism. It seems that coilovers or springs do not necessarily result in better lap times, especially with EDC, and lowering is mostly for cosmetic purposes. Track performance-wise, vast majority should be fine with just camber adjustment. Correct?

3. Gas mileage - the consensus is that it is bad, and some tunes make it worse, but no way to improve it. How bad it is, for example compared to 335i or 335xi? Any way to improve it, at least for highway driving? I am worried mostly about the range.

4. M3 is not a straight line car - rapid straight line acceleration causes all kinds of problems. People say it over and over again, which worries me. I have no interest in drag racing, but, putting it simply, any track has a long straight where you are supposed to accelerate as fast as you can. I find it tough to believe that an M car was not designed to handle that, if even 335 does Ok. Is it just an exaggeration or is there any truth to it?

5. Mods are overpriced compared to other cars in the same class. Seen it mentioned many times, but did not do direct price comparisons. How cost of mods compares to cost of 335 mods or cayman/boxster mods?

6. M3 is underpowered and, short of supercharging, there is not much mod potential. I've seen this statement many times, but it still puzzles me - what in the same or similar class has better power-to-weight? Even c63 is slower most of the time. Also, there is a ton of posts about the miracle effects of exhaust mods. So who is right? Or, just to make it easier to answer, can I get an M3 to 460+ crank HP without supercharging and how much it's going to cost?

7. M3 kills brakes and tires faster than most other track-worthy cars (e.g. 911, Corvette or STI). This one makes sense to me - it is a rather heavy car. But is the difference really significant?

Theses are other points that people complain about a lot on this forum, but I am not as much worried about those.

[shaunt]

There will always be bitching and whining but at the end of the day there is a reason why fans and critics alike say this is the best driving experience you can get short of $75,000.

[montreal red]

1. brakes are decent enough for occasionally track duty. i run on stock pads and stock brake lines with only upgraded fluid and it works just fine. i did 5 track events last year and will do another 5 more this year. as you get better, upgrading to a bbk is always an option.

2. suspension is more than adequate for track duty. lots of people upgrade this more for cosmetic reasons (to get lower ride height).

3. gas mileage is definitely awful compared to the 335. esp if you have a lead foot like me. no way to improve this imo. but if you have to ask bout gas mileage, the m3 is definitely not for you. its no an econo-car.

4. the m3 will be able to take straights on the track with no problems. but i dont recommend drag racing it. drag racing puts 10 times more stress on the car's components compared to accelerating from a rolling start.

5. mods are a little overpriced compared to 335 mods but if you compare the mods with those for the 911s or caymans, they are pretty much in line and very comparable in terms of price.

6. i feel like the m3 is a little underpowered compared to the competition. but there are lots of options to resolve this. engine tune, air filter, exhaust, removing the cats, changing the diff. all these would give a noticeable amount of power.

7. the m3 is a heavy car and would certainly eat more brakes and tires compared to a lotus for example but other cars like the c63, is-f and rs4 are equally heavy if not heavier... so in this class of car, its acceptable. the m3 is NOT a stripped out race car after all. its more of a luxury GT car that can do some track duty. it wasnt built to compete with louts exiges.

hope that answers some questions!

[Poppin Fresh]

4. Long straight tracks will give the M3's engine a chance to stretch it's legs out. Not much torque but top end is great with the high revving V8.

[Serious]

the brakes work but if you are really serious about tracking the car they are definetly going to be the achilles heel at least mechanically (usually biggest problem is technique)... but ultimately its a big heavy very powerful car, so its going to chew up brakes and tires.

When people say the car isn't a straight line car... they just mean its wasn't designed or supported by the aftermarket to be a great performer in drag or street racing... the funny thing is that what you describe, " long straights on a track" is exactly what the s65 is designed to chew up, the engine needs to have its legs stretched to really show its potential, down a front or back straight the motor is going to absolutely shine.

As for suspension, lap times will improve with stiffer springs and better dampers, the stock stuff is probably a good mix/compromise suspension... but there are gains to be had, don't be fooled.

[saeedg48]

Just don't take off crazy fast. High speeds are fine. It's a german car which means it should and needs to cope w/t Autoban speeds.

Just don't sit there and take off @ 3K after dropping the clutch.

[MrHarris]

I warped my rotors after one autocross day, and I believe it was from the pads.

[CATCH_M3]

The underpowered thing is a myth. The torque curve for this car is beautiful.. I posted a thread on this yesterday (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351328).

The car has more torque at the wheels than a c5 z06 in lower gears, which has 400 lb-ft @ 4,800 rpm rated at the engine. (http://forums.carmudgeons.com/showthread.php?t=23608). People just see that the car has 'only' 295 lb.ft torque at the engine and assume it has no torque when you drive; but it's not very relevant as the car is geared short. This results in the bad gas mileage, which is definitely true though. ()

With a few bolt-on mods you'll be breaking 12 in the 1/4 mile.. I definitely do not think that is straight line 'slow' for a street car. (air filter, scoops, pulleys, headerback exhaust, tune, r-compound tires.)

[MaxL]

Thanks for all the info - seems that the impression I got from my research is correct, and some of the things are mentioned are just exaggerations while others are facts that you just have to accept.

One more thing I forgot to mention - there is pretty much no talk about voided warranty or things like that. Does it mean that the car never breaks or is BMW more lenient to M3 track use and light mods? What's the likelihood of getting not covered by warranty if tracking stock car? What about car with minor bolt-ons (exhaust + intake)?

Thanks!

[CATCH_M3]

I asked my sales rep and he said that anything that breaks 'at the track' is your responsibility. (But doesn't necissarily void warranty even if you admit to tracking.)

Cosmetic, Air filter, RPi scoops, & axleback exhaust are a definite ok. Anything else you could run into trouble for.. Just be wary of that. Which dealership do you deal with in Toronto? Budds/Dinan would be the way to go for anything more hardcore imo.

There is one guy on the board from Asia who got his engine warranty voided because of a tune. Therefore if I did it, I would go to Cross avenue or Budds and get it done that way. Not much more $ and only a little bit more conservative

[OC ///M]

Interesting questions. I'm actually switching out of the M3 after 2 years and into a Boxster Spyder in a few months so my answers may interest you.

Originally Posted by MaxL

...So are these myths or reality?

1. Bad brakes for a track. There is a lot of bitching around, and it is easy to see that most people complain ONLY because they are convinced that quality of brakes is proportional to the number of cylinders. But still, there seem to be many legitimate concerns. After some research my conclusion is that 90+% of weekend track drivers will be happy with performance pads + fluid + possibly scoops, and only pros really need BBK. Is that a correct conclusion? You will find plenty of anecdotal evidence to support the above-captioned statements, but it really comes down to this: The car's brakes are fine for most owners on the street, if you plan on tracking the car, you should consider an aftermarket solution.

2. Suspension - not much criticism. It seems that coilovers or springs do not necessarily result in better lap times, especially with EDC, and lowering is mostly for cosmetic purposes. Track performance-wise, vast majority should be fine with just camber adjustment. Correct? Yes, more or less, the car comes ready out of the box in this regard. If I had to do it over, I would NOT have installed the lowering springs.

3. Gas mileage - the consensus is that it is bad, and some tunes make it worse, but no way to improve it. How bad it is, for example compared to 335i or 335xi? Any way to improve it, at least for highway driving? I am worried mostly about the range. On the contrary, I witnessed a genuine improvement in mileage after my software tune. I average over 20 mpg on the custom Powerchip tune when @ ~ 75 mph highway speeds. At the track it's closer to 11mpg.

4. M3 is not a straight line car - rapid straight line acceleration causes all kinds of problems. People say it over and over again, which worries me. I have no interest in drag racing, but, putting it simply, any track has a long straight where you are supposed to accelerate as fast as you can. I find it tough to believe that an M car was not designed to handle that, if even 335 does Ok. Is it just an exaggeration or is there any truth to it? An exaggerated point, argueably true, that overlooks the car's ease and ability at the limit into and out of the corners that bookend the straights.

5. Mods are overpriced compared to other cars in the same class. Seen it mentioned many times, but did not do direct price comparisons. How cost of mods compares to cost of 335 mods or cayman/boxster mods? True, they treat us like P-car/F-car owners!

6. M3 is underpowered and, short of supercharging, there is not much mod potential. I've seen this statement many times, but it still puzzles me - what in the same or similar class has better power-to-weight? Even c63 is slower most of the time. Also, there is a ton of posts about the miracle effects of exhaust mods. So who is right? Or, just to make it easier to answer, can I get an M3 to 460+ crank HP without supercharging and how much it's going to cost? The M3 is NOT underpowered, it's overweight. Yes, it can be done, (w/o supercharging) take a look at the sticky Pencilgeek has made up in the "Engine Performance" section. Also, don't forget the benefits of shedding weight on this porker where you can.

7. M3 kills brakes and tires faster than most other track-worthy cars (e.g. 911, Corvette or STI). This one makes sense to me - it is a rather heavy car. But is the difference really significant? My PS2's went out just as fast on my former 335. It really depends on the driver, I would submit there is a negligible difference between the Vette, M3, and 911 in terms of tire/brake wear, only BMW NA covers brakes through 50k miles!

Theses are other points that people complain about a lot on this forum, but I am not as much worried about those.

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by CATCH_M3

Cosmetic, Air filter, RPi scoops, & axleback exhaust are a definite ok. Anything else you could run into trouble for.. Just be wary of that. Which dealership do you deal with in Toronto? Budds/Dinan would be the way to go for anything more hardcore imo.

I have not dealt with a dealership yet - I just moved from USA less than a year ago, and did not need dealer's attention since then. I do intend to track and most probably mod the M3 (especially now after a friend of mine built a wholesale autoparts business, which includes performance parts) - so which dealership would be better?

[RichB]

I agree with most responses to your observations. In regards to MPG, I found my range is 80 miles less per tank in my M3 than my 335i, which equates to approx 20%-25% lower fuel economy. The 335i got me spoiled on the great MPG. I had a 700 mile trip recently in my M3 doing 83MPH at 20.2 MPG. The problem is I love the engine sound and engine response so I would be more aggressive at times, which kills the fuel economy more than the 335i.

My commute is 18 miles, 50% highway, 50% suburbs. Driving conservatively I can easily get 19.x MPG. If I play around a bit, my MPG goes to the 18s. MPG is not that bad if you consider what you get.

When I tracked my 335i, I would get 9-10 MPG. I have not tracked my M3 yet. The 335i would eat the front tires much more than the rears on the track due to the heavy car leaning in the turns. With daily driving, my driving style caused the 335i RFTs to need replacing at 20K miles. I imagine my M3 rear tires will wear faster due to the greater fun factor and immediate power delivery compared to the 335i. I "play" a lot more in the M3.

I owned a Boxster in the past and it was a very fun car to drive. The lighter weight is noticeable and adds to the fun. The Boxster does not have the same sort of power as the M3, so there is a trade off. I think the M3 is the ideal DD. I love mine and highly recommend it. Best car I have owned.

In regards to the brakes....I met a guy at a couple track events who had a new (2008) E92 M3. He complained that the brakes warped a couple times and were replaced under warranty. He ended up putting on track pads for the track events and no longer had brake issues. He also owned an early 90s Ferrari. He preferred to track the M3....faster, more reliable, comfortable, etc. He was in the fast group and gave a lot of praise to the M3. Other than the track pads, his car was completely stock. I imagine it will be a great tracking car.

[CATCH_M3]

Originally Posted by MaxL

I have not dealt with a dealership yet - I just moved from USA less than a year ago, and did not need dealer's attention since then. I do intend to track and most probably mod the M3 (especially now after a friend of mine built a wholesale autoparts business, which includes performance parts) - so which dealership would be better?

Hm, well the Dinan authorized retailers & installers are Budds BMW in Oakville & Cross Avenue Auto also in Oakville if you are looking into that route. In terms of where to buy your car, I would shop around and honestly go to wherever has one that you want for the best price. Most dealerships I have heard good AND bad about; but not really many horror stories. I personally have gotten service from Autohaus, Budds, BMW Toronto, BMW London. They have all been at least OK to me. The best service I have received for any of my BMWs is from Rocco @ RMP Automotive in Etobicoke (not a dealer). As long as you have a good relationship with your sales guy & an SA you should be fine.

And what wholesale autoparts? Hook us up! We are deprived in Canada.

[dhoggm3]

Brakes are great for the track. Just use track pads and go have fun. The stock pads aren't up to it.

[ihyln]

I don't mean to be rude but if gas mileage/tires comes across your mind when looking at this car then it's simply not for you. Expensive cars are expensive to maintain, it's as simple as that.

The Veyron costs around $200,000 a year to maintain and I doubt you'll see Ferrari/Lambo owners ask "so I want to buy a Veyron but I'm concerned about the gas mileage"

[Trier Germany]

You have to Pay if you wanna play! The M3 is not a cheap car to drive Gas Tires will eat most of your money and mods will take therest.

[ismelllikepoop]

Originally Posted by ihyln

I don't mean to be rude but if gas mileage/tires comes across your mind when looking at this car then it's simply not for you. Expensive cars are expensive to maintain, it's as simple as that.

The Veyron costs around $200,000 a year to maintain and I doubt you'll see Ferrari/Lambo owners ask "so I want to buy a Veyron but I'm concerned about the gas mileage"

you make it sound like we're driving some exotic car. a e550 or a 550i cost as much if not more. costs can come into consideration, thats why i was wary of the c63, i didnt want to have to spend $1400 on tires every 7k miles.

[ihyln]

tell me who aside from the uneducated buy tires that cost $1400? There are comparable tires to the PS2s that cost half that. That said, gas is probably the only major concern for people but honestly who the hell cares, you live once.

[Jeff_DML]

range does suck, it could use a bigger tank, think it is 16.6 gallons and the car is rated 14/20 so that doesn't get you that far.

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by RichB

I agree with most responses to your observations. In regards to MPG, I found my range is 80 miles less per tank in my M3 than my 335i, which equates to approx 20%-25% lower fuel economy. The 335i got me spoiled on the great MPG.

Oh, that is not bad at all. My 335xi is getting spectacular mileage, and I can live with 20-25% worse. To those who say it is not ok to ask about mileage in performance cars - tell it to Obama... On a serious note - I'd hate having to stop just for gas or leaving a track in the middle of the day to fill up or having to explain my car to environmentally-inclined people. Also, with the way things are going now, there is a small but real chance that such cars would be taxed with annual fees in the future. It is not the cost of gas that concerned me. The money I'm saving by upgrading to M3 instead of buying a second car would buy a lot of fuel.

[CATCH_M3]

I think the M3 can get 'decent' gas mileage. The only thing is when driving it vs. your 335i you'll probably be more tempted to 'play' making the gas mileage horrible. But thats because of choices you would make while driving it. I know thats the case with me.