135 overpriced? Not if you tally up the features...

ersatzS2 · 02-09-2008, 10:54 AM

Since I'm new to bmw's I am catching up on my reading of various forums. Over on an M3 forum there is a lot of grousing about the "over-priced" one series. I couldn't care less about the M3/335/135 comparisons myself; All bmws have looked to me to be overblown and barge-like for a five years, and the appeal of the 1-series to me is exactly because it is so compact, and an ideological turn toward compact sports-sedan roots.

However, the more I read, the more it seems like even on it's merits, exactly the opposite is true: The 135 is an extraordinary value relative to other bimmers on a pure feature to feature basis.

Three examples:

Performance: The 1 is going to be a chip away from contending with an M3/M5 in HP. Time will tell what the suspension can really do but all the fundamentals are there to make this a sweet handling car.
Options: I just read in another thread that comfort access as an option costs half on the 1 as on a 5-series. Betcha if you surveyed other options you'd find the same dynamic... Buy a 1, get your options at 50% off?
Other Features: I was over on the Dinan site the other night- have you SEEN what they charge for their big-brake kits? >$6K! Obviously there are M3 customers who want fixed caliper brembos and paying 15% of the entire price of a 135 to upgrade. Out of sympathy for those other poor slobs suckered into overpaying by the halo-effect of past glories, I won't even mention the Dinan pricetag of upgrading to forced induction...

Yoot1 · 02-09-2008, 11:28 AM

You are correct. The 135i is a fantastic value. It's interesting to note that while BMW sells more cars than Audi, they make less profit. A few years ago I asked my car designer friends back in Detroit why that is.

They pointed out many things on my Audi that were cheap, but cleverly designed to look expensive. It was a real eye opener and has prevented me from buying another Audi even though I still like them.

BMW does the opposite, they make expensive to build cars that look comparatively cheap. Or as my friends say, "oh they cut corners, just less than anyone else".

infinitekidM2C · 02-09-2008, 11:34 AM

actually we should all be grateful that 3, 5 and 7 series owners are subsidizing the 1 series:biggrin: All of his points are spot-on..same parts will cost more if u own one of those boats..

WolfsburgerMitFries · 02-09-2008, 11:43 AM

Alright, lets test that theory and tally up some features. First of all, Why can I order any Honda, Volkswagen, Toyota, Chevrolet, etc, with metallic paint for $0, but if I want metallic paint on my BMW its $475? That's a transparent rip off all day long.

Lets look at infotainment options, Sattelite radio for $595? That's insane, and another transparent rip off. Most car manufactures simply include sat radio as standard equipment (at the 1 series price point) or at least bundle it with the navigation option. Buy a Dodge Challenger and sat radio is free with a 1 year trial subscription.

Let's add up all the infortainment options...
Navigation $2100
HD radio $350
IPOD/USB $400 (that's another ridicuously overpriced option that's free in many other cars as cheap as a Scion)
Premium hifi $875 (generic speakers)
Sat radio $595

That's a total of $4320 for alot of STANDARD EQUIPMENT items in many other modern cars. And the 'premium hifi' is nothing special (for example, compared to Volkswagen who partners with Dynaudio for the excellent speakers in their premium hifi option).

I don't mind paying a premium for a premium car at all, but I do mind paying a premium (being extorted) for $0.10 worth of metallic flake in my paint, and and basic modern electronic necessities like an ipod/usb port.

Yoot1 · 02-09-2008, 11:46 AM

Yes, options are high profit items. (When I speak of profit, I'm only referring to percent of revenue, and not magnitude.)

Scoobyfun · 02-09-2008, 12:28 PM

I think that you pay a lot of money for that premium badge...

My wife drives a 118d company car with little options, new net price +/- 26.000 eur, 2 year warranty.
I drive a fully loaded Toyota Avensis wagon, new net price +/- 26.000 eur., 5 year warranty.
Quality is absolutely the same (Toyo is even better), fuel consumption is almost the same, performance is almost the same...
There is of course a very big difference in terms of driving dynamics ... no discussion!
And there is the famous BMW badge...

But if I compare european 135i prices to the 08 Sti or 08 Evo, then the BMW is the cheapest of the lot:w00t:

What I am afraid of is the fact that BMW plans to save 6 billion euros the next 4 years!!! How will this affect the quality of their vehicles? They will certainly not start selling their cars cheaper!

cracka · 02-09-2008, 04:00 PM

Clearly the options are pricey, but here is another thing to consider...

What value do you place on the 4/50k everything-but-tires warranty & maintenance plan, with a free loaner if they need to keep yours?

Even normal maintenance on German cars in particular can get expen$ive pretty quickly.

infinitekidM2C · 02-09-2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ersatzS2

The 135 is an extraordinary value relative to other bimmers on a pure feature to feature basis.

Actually wolfsburger i think u've missed his point which is relative to other bimmers, its a value...which i totally agree...now relative to japanese cars...we might have a problem

spudw · 02-09-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

Buy a Dodge Challenger and sat radio is free with a 1 year trial subscription.

Dodge and other car makers need to include those items as incentives. Take away the free bbq, 0% financing and other freebies and I doubt you'd touch a challenger with a 10-foot pole if you could have a 1er instead.

It comes down to getting what you pay for. Bet it costs more to develop a BMW and far fewer compromises are made in the name of profit.

abc · 02-09-2008, 10:09 PM

[quote=Yoot1;62266]

They pointed out many things on my Audi that were cheap, but cleverly designed to look expensive. It was a real eye opener and has prevented me from buying another Audi even though I still like them.

quote]

This is potentially facinating. Please elaborate. Many things like???

Deutsch · 02-10-2008, 12:07 AM

In the grand scheme of things a BMW will cost you no more than a Lexus over a period of ten years. A few people got scared when they took their BMW in for servicing and got the bill and spread the negative propaganda; boo-hoo. You get what you pay for.

While I still have a hard time digesting $40k for a subcompact car in this instance (as many have said and I will repeat, twice) you're getting what you pay for. Personally, I'll save ten grand and buy a Clubman and use the cash I didn't spend on a 135i on JCW upgrades.

Audi's using VW switchgear!?!?! No freak'n sh!t! Last time I checked VWAG was (and always has been) Audi's parent company (soon to be Porsche, can't wait for that).

samuraichkn · 02-10-2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoot1

You are correct. The 135i is a fantastic value. It's interesting to note that while BMW sells more cars than Audi, they make less profit. A few years ago I asked my car designer friends back in Detroit why that is.

They pointed out many things on my Audi that were cheap, but cleverly designed to look expensive. It was a real eye opener and has prevented me from buying another Audi even though I still like them.

BMW does the opposite, they make expensive to build cars that look comparatively cheap. Or as my friends say, "oh they cut corners, just less than anyone else".

Can you elaborate on the Audi thing for me? Im kinda intereseted to see where they cut costs on things. thanks

Sandman · 02-10-2008, 07:52 AM

Can anyone think of a better-performing/faster "four seat" coupe that's well-equipped for around $40K? The closest competitor seems to be the G37, which is about the same price comparably equipped.

As it's been said, the 135i is in a category of its own. :headbang:

asv · 02-10-2008, 09:04 AM

BREAKING NEWS: Luxury brand auto options are expensive. More at 11. :biggrin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

Alright, lets test that theory and tally up some features. First of all, Why can I order any Honda, Volkswagen, Toyota, Chevrolet, etc, with metallic paint for $0, but if I want metallic paint on my BMW its $475? That's a transparent rip off all day long.

TP 135i · 02-10-2008, 10:07 AM

WolfsburgerMitFries · 02-10-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asv

BREAKING NEWS: Luxury brand auto options are expensive. More at 11. :biggrin:

Breaking news, metallic paint is metallic paint and its not worth $475, and sat radio as a stand alone option is worth $200 at a maximum.

Here's more breaking news, its a blatant rip off and there's no way you can marginalize or justify it. I'll be happy to sell you BMW brand gasoline for your BMW car for $6 a gallon...after all its luxury gasoline for a luxury car, right?

WolfsburgerMitFries · 02-10-2008, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spudwest

Take away the free bbq, 0% financing and other freebies and I doubt you'd touch a challenger with a 10-foot pole if you could have a 1er instead.

There's no free bbq or 0% financing on a Challenger, and if you took away the sattelite radio, it would still sell faster than crack in the projects.

asv · 02-10-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

Breaking news, metallic paint is metallic paint and its not worth $475, and sat radio as a stand alone option is worth $200 at a maximum.

Here's more breaking news, its a blatant rip off and there's no way you can marginalize or justify it. I'll be happy to sell you BMW brand gasoline for your BMW car for $6 a gallon...after all its luxury gasoline for a luxury car, right?

Its called "pricing to market."

Your definition of value may not align with the typical BMW customer.

Charging more for metallic paint is a standard industry practice. Its not rational, but does it need to be?

Not including a 30 cent printer cable with a printer is not a rational practice either, but its the industry standard.

PS, if you think $450 is a ripoff, go configure a Porsche.

Yoot1 · 02-10-2008, 07:22 PM

[quote=abc;62424]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoot1

They pointed out many things on my Audi that were cheap, but cleverly designed to look expensive. It was a real eye opener and has prevented me from buying another Audi even though I still like them.

quote]

This is potentially facinating. Please elaborate. Many things like???

Actually, mostly little things. And some are just a matter of opinion.

Climate control
Door locks
Seat motors
Parking brakes
Suspension weight
Bearing parts that should be hardened
Quality of body steel
Rust proof plating quality

I did say cleverly designed, which is one reason why Audi's are cost effective.

psyshack · 02-10-2008, 09:44 PM

One of the reasons Im waiting on my 1er purchase is the chance to get the price down. I wont pay MSRP for any car! Call it being a cheap ass or what ever you want. But I wont pay it!

The local BMW dealer is dealing on 3's and Z4. So in time the 1 will be able to be purchased in the same manor.

The extra cost for paint and some of the other stuff is bad. Enter the G37S. I drove one this weekend. A very nice car. And does battle with the 3 quite well.

So while I wait for the hype to settle down over the 1. I can take a drive here in there in a G37S.

I would hate for BMW to loose a sale over ignorant pricing. But stranger things have happened.

MZWIE · 02-11-2008, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

Alright, lets test that theory and tally up some features. First of all, Why can I order any Honda, Volkswagen, Toyota, Chevrolet, etc, with metallic paint for $0, but if I want metallic paint on my BMW its $475? That's a transparent rip off all day long.

Lets look at infotainment options, Sattelite radio for $595? That's insane, and another transparent rip off. Most car manufactures simply include sat radio as standard equipment (at the 1 series price point) or at least bundle it with the navigation option. Buy a Dodge Challenger and sat radio is free with a 1 year trial subscription.

Let's add up all the infortainment options...
Navigation $2100
HD radio $350
IPOD/USB $400 (that's another ridicuously overpriced option that's free in many other cars as cheap as a Scion)
Premium hifi $875 (generic speakers)
Sat radio $595

That's a total of $4320 for alot of STANDARD EQUIPMENT items in many other modern cars. And the 'premium hifi' is nothing special (for example, compared to Volkswagen who partners with Dynaudio for the excellent speakers in their premium hifi option).

I don't mind paying a premium for a premium car at all, but I do mind paying a premium (being extorted) for $0.10 worth of metallic flake in my paint, and and basic modern electronic necessities like an ipod/usb port.

That's exaclty why I don't order all that junk.

Let's examine as you say:

Navigation - I'm not going to get lost in my own home town.

Sat radio - I already have a SAT receiver (which cost me $50). All I need to do is plug into the AUX input.

IPOD Adapter - See above. Plug into the AUX input.

HD Radio - Never listen to the radio. Only SAT.

Then you forgot the other useless options:

Leather - Wears out very quickly. Difficult to keep looking good.

Power seats - How many times do you need this. Once seats are set then that's it.

Assist (for BT only). - I already have that in my current car. Simply move it over to the new car.

Garage door opener - Some one steals the car. Reads the address from the registration. Boom their in. I keep the garage door opener in my briefcase.

And lastly - Sports package. Unfortunately we need this one so we can get the seats. As far as suspension is concerned it's not very good. The springs are too tall and too soft. The sways are too small. All this will be replaced on my car as soon as aftermarkets are available.

So my car = $36675 + tax.

It's not about the frufru stuff. It's all about performance. The fact that BMWNA doesn't let the US market order a car like we want is really annoying.

cracka · 02-11-2008, 10:23 AM

Let's say for shits & grins that BMW USA will sell as many 1ers as they can import, given the limited number that will be built. Now, given that scenario, wouldn't they be idiots not to charge a premium wherever possible?

I think that scenario is likely, and I think they're not idiots.

Everyone in the USA who's whining about the pricing, please try to remember that we can buy an E92 M3 for what the rest of the world is paying for a nicely equipped 135i.

02-09-2008, 10:54 AM	#1
ersatzS2 Private First Class 16 Rep 186 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New Jersey iTrader: (0)	135 overpriced? Not if you tally up the features... Since I'm new to bmw's I am catching up on my reading of various forums. Over on an M3 forum there is a lot of grousing about the "over-priced" one series. I couldn't care less about the M3/335/135 comparisons myself; All bmws have looked to me to be overblown and barge-like for a five years, and the appeal of the 1-series to me is exactly because it is so compact, and an ideological turn toward compact sports-sedan roots. However, the more I read, the more it seems like even on it's merits, exactly the opposite is true: The 135 is an extraordinary value relative to other bimmers on a pure feature to feature basis. Three examples: Performance: The 1 is going to be a chip away from contending with an M3/M5 in HP. Time will tell what the suspension can really do but all the fundamentals are there to make this a sweet handling car. Options: I just read in another thread that comfort access as an option costs half on the 1 as on a 5-series. Betcha if you surveyed other options you'd find the same dynamic... Buy a 1, get your options at 50% off? Other Features: I was over on the Dinan site the other night- have you SEEN what they charge for their big-brake kits? >$6K! Obviously there are M3 customers who want fixed caliper brembos and paying 15% of the entire price of a 135 to upgrade. Out of sympathy for those other poor slobs suckered into overpaying by the halo-effect of past glories, I won't even mention the Dinan pricetag of upgrading to forced induction... __________________ 135i built 2/14/08 SGM w/Black and AL, 6 forward gears
	Appreciate 0 Tweet Quote

02-09-2008, 11:28 AM	#2
Yoot1 Private First Class 5 Rep 119 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Eastern Washington iTrader: (0)	You are correct. The 135i is a fantastic value. It's interesting to note that while BMW sells more cars than Audi, they make less profit. A few years ago I asked my car designer friends back in Detroit why that is. They pointed out many things on my Audi that were cheap, but cleverly designed to look expensive. It was a real eye opener and has prevented me from buying another Audi even though I still like them. BMW does the opposite, they make expensive to build cars that look comparatively cheap. Or as my friends say, "oh they cut corners, just less than anyone else". __________________ I want 1
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-09-2008, 11:34 AM	#3
infinitekidM2C Major General 4207 Rep 5,728 Posts Drives: 2019 M2 Competition Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Orange County, CA iTrader: (4) Garage List 2019 M2 COMPETITION [9.50] 2008 135i (my old car) [7.39]	actually we should all be grateful that 3, 5 and 7 series owners are subsidizing the 1 series:biggrin: All of his points are spot-on..same parts will cost more if u own one of those boats..
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-09-2008, 11:43 AM	#4
WolfsburgerMitFries Lieutenant 12 Rep 445 Posts Drives: BMW 3er Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lexington, KY iTrader: (0)	Alright, lets test that theory and tally up some features. First of all, Why can I order any Honda, Volkswagen, Toyota, Chevrolet, etc, with metallic paint for $0, but if I want metallic paint on my BMW its $475? That's a transparent rip off all day long. Lets look at infotainment options, Sattelite radio for $595? That's insane, and another transparent rip off. Most car manufactures simply include sat radio as standard equipment (at the 1 series price point) or at least bundle it with the navigation option. Buy a Dodge Challenger and sat radio is free with a 1 year trial subscription. Let's add up all the infortainment options... Navigation $2100 HD radio $350 IPOD/USB $400 (that's another ridicuously overpriced option that's free in many other cars as cheap as a Scion) Premium hifi $875 (generic speakers) Sat radio $595 That's a total of $4320 for alot of STANDARD EQUIPMENT items in many other modern cars. And the 'premium hifi' is nothing special (for example, compared to Volkswagen who partners with Dynaudio for the excellent speakers in their premium hifi option). I don't mind paying a premium for a premium car at all, but I do mind paying a premium (being extorted) for $0.10 worth of metallic flake in my paint, and and basic modern electronic necessities like an ipod/usb port.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-09-2008, 11:46 AM	#5
Yoot1 Private First Class 5 Rep 119 Posts Drives: 135i Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Eastern Washington iTrader: (0)	Yes, options are high profit items. (When I speak of profit, I'm only referring to percent of revenue, and not magnitude.) __________________ I want 1
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-09-2008, 12:28 PM	#6
Scoobyfun New Member 1 Rep 11 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2008 iTrader: (0)	I think that you pay a lot of money for that premium badge... My wife drives a 118d company car with little options, new net price +/- 26.000 eur, 2 year warranty. I drive a fully loaded Toyota Avensis wagon, new net price +/- 26.000 eur., 5 year warranty. Quality is absolutely the same (Toyo is even better), fuel consumption is almost the same, performance is almost the same... There is of course a very big difference in terms of driving dynamics ... no discussion! And there is the famous BMW badge... But if I compare european 135i prices to the 08 Sti or 08 Evo, then the BMW is the cheapest of the lot:w00t: What I am afraid of is the fact that BMW plans to save 6 billion euros the next 4 years!!! How will this affect the quality of their vehicles? They will certainly not start selling their cars cheaper! __________________ Fun is not a straight line!
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-09-2008, 04:00 PM	#7
cracka Captain 26 Rep 780 Posts Drives: VO 1M Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: DFW iTrader: (0)	Clearly the options are pricey, but here is another thing to consider... What value do you place on the 4/50k everything-but-tires warranty & maintenance plan, with a free loaner if they need to keep yours? Even normal maintenance on German cars in particular can get expen$ive pretty quickly.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-09-2008, 10:09 PM	#10
abc Captain 27 Rep 772 Posts Drives: 325 Join Date: May 2005 Location: NYC iTrader: (0)	[quote=Yoot1;62266] They pointed out many things on my Audi that were cheap, but cleverly designed to look expensive. It was a real eye opener and has prevented me from buying another Audi even though I still like them. quote] This is potentially facinating. Please elaborate. Many things like???
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-10-2008, 12:07 AM	#11
Deutsch Second Lieutenant 50 Rep 249 Posts Drives: Join Date: Nov 2006 iTrader: (0)	In the grand scheme of things a BMW will cost you no more than a Lexus over a period of ten years. A few people got scared when they took their BMW in for servicing and got the bill and spread the negative propaganda; boo-hoo. You get what you pay for. While I still have a hard time digesting $40k for a subcompact car in this instance (as many have said and I will repeat, twice) you're getting what you pay for. Personally, I'll save ten grand and buy a Clubman and use the cash I didn't spend on a 135i on JCW upgrades. Audi's using VW switchgear!?!?! No freak'n sh!t! Last time I checked VWAG was (and always has been) Audi's parent company (soon to be Porsche, can't wait for that).
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-10-2008, 07:52 AM	#13
Sandman Registered 0 Rep 1 Posts Drives: Join Date: Feb 2008 iTrader: (0)	Can anyone think of a better-performing/faster "four seat" coupe that's well-equipped for around $40K? The closest competitor seems to be the G37, which is about the same price comparably equipped. As it's been said, the 135i is in a category of its own. :headbang:
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-10-2008, 10:07 AM	#15
TP 135i Major 29 Rep 1,340 Posts Drives: 2008 135i SGM MT Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Finksburg, Maryland iTrader: (0) Garage List 1995 Acura Integra SE [0.00] 2008 BMW 135i [0.00] 2006 Porsche Cayman S [0.00] 1999 Toyota 4-Runner [0.00]
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-10-2008, 09:44 PM	#20
psyshack Enlisted Member 0 Rep 44 Posts Drives: Join Date: Jan 2008 iTrader: (0)	One of the reasons Im waiting on my 1er purchase is the chance to get the price down. I wont pay MSRP for any car! Call it being a cheap ass or what ever you want. But I wont pay it! The local BMW dealer is dealing on 3's and Z4. So in time the 1 will be able to be purchased in the same manor. The extra cost for paint and some of the other stuff is bad. Enter the G37S. I drove one this weekend. A very nice car. And does battle with the 3 quite well. So while I wait for the hype to settle down over the 1. I can take a drive here in there in a G37S. I would hate for BMW to loose a sale over ignorant pricing. But stranger things have happened.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-11-2008, 10:23 AM	#22
cracka Captain 26 Rep 780 Posts Drives: VO 1M Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: DFW iTrader: (0)	Let's say for shits & grins that BMW USA will sell as many 1ers as they can import, given the limited number that will be built. Now, given that scenario, wouldn't they be idiots not to charge a premium wherever possible? I think that scenario is likely, and I think they're not idiots. Everyone in the USA who's whining about the pricing, please try to remember that we can buy an E92 M3 for what the rest of the world is paying for a nicely equipped 135i.
	Appreciate 0 Quote