Horsepower available now vs. 20-30 yrs. ago

[Merlin_83]

Greetings,

I watch as the increasing horsepower wars continue, which I'm happy for - I suspect I'll purchase a pre-owned M5 or M6 at some point.

But, how is that we've crossed this magical meridian of accessible horsepower in only just the last few years ? Ford, Dodge, Audi, Cadillac, BMW and MB all have production capable 600+ HP engines available. I'm not counting all the exotics with 600-1200 HP as most of those cars are not accessible to most of us i.e. McClaren, Ferrari, etc.

Sure I know that today's cars have incredible computer control to maximize and optimize every bit of HP available, but it has to be more than that.

Maybe all of the manufactures see the end of the internal combustion engine on the horizon so they've pulled all the stops out to get to highest achievable HP ?

Cheers,
Merlin

[mrspecter]

A lot of it has to do with all the technological advances in direct injection and turbocharging which seems to be the trend of modern cars these days.

[Blindside_137]

What was the question again?

[spazzyfry123]

Experience. Knowledge is always exponential as you are just building on what has already been discovered.

I think back to my dad's old Ford Fairlane that was a consistent 8.8x 1/4 mile drag car. The sheer amount of money put into that thing to obtain this type of quick is mind boggling. Now you go buy a Hellcat something or other and twiddle with the tires and suspension for probably less than he had in just the suspension on his drag car to show the same times.

[srmast1]

Serious advancements with force induction technology really seems to have driven these high horse power platforms. It's tough to reach those horsepower numbers with NA engines that are affordable and/or have any hint of good gas mileage. But you can have a twin turbo v12 M760iL that has some serious power and can give ok milage if you are easy on it.

[Flying Ace]

My M6 has more horsepower than 1987 Porsche 959. But it's meaningless bc my weight is also 1100 lbs more for the HP to push around. All the luxuries and safety weighs a lot.

The 959 and my M6 has the near identical acceleration numbers.

This just shows the era we're in where engineering is giving us a great car. Oh and get this, the 959 would have cost $0.5 million in today's dollars. My M6...$60k used.

If I were in an accident today, I'd rather be in my M6. If I were on a road course, I would still choose my M6.

The furthest back I would seriously consider an older exotic better than today daily sub-exotics would be turn of the century Ferraris and Porsches. And I'm talking about top of the line Ferrari and Porsches (CS, CGT)

[blue-mw]

Lot of good points here, but I fear we're overlooking a very simple factor, folks.

With the influx of performance stickers and decals available in this day and age, it's easy for anyone to achieve as much horsepower as they want. People don't believe my stock E92 is pushing 700HP until I point out all my ECS, DINAN, and ///M stickers. Then they get it.

[thkfast]

We live in a time which could be considered "automotive nirvana". My first real car was a 1969 Mustang Mach 1 351 Windsor 4bbl 4 speed manual - yeah pretty much the shittiest engine available, but I was a college student and it was a cool looking car. It was rated at 290 hp at a SCREAMING HIGH 4,800 rpm - oh boy!

I'm absolutely thrilled with what is happening in the automotive (and motorcycle) world right now.

[KPop]

Horsepower is like crack to a lot of consumers and is easy to market and sell. Yet, it’s meaningless without balance in the chassis which some, not all, of these high HP cars don’t have. Today, our E9X M3’s could be seen as “underpowered” compared to 500+hp C63’s and GT350’s, but the M3’s balance is near perfect.

Aircraft piston engines peaked with 28 cylinder radial monsters making over 4K HP right as the jet engine was gaining momentum, so I do believe we are reaching a similar phase with internal combustion vehicle engines before everything becomes a hybrid or electric only. Of course there may still be a few models with pure gas engines but they will likely be reserved for bespoke, limited run models like the 911R that are not within reach of most enthusiasts.

That said, I can’t think of any new 4-door cars at any price (aside from a Panamera Turbo S or Rapide) that excite me and those two models only come with automatics. That’s why I’m more interested in cars from 1990 - early 2000’s before everything got too infused with high-tech driver aids and other modern amenities that distract from a focused driving experience.

[Pig Farmer]

Originally Posted by KPop

That said, I can’t think of any new 4-door cars at any price (aside from a Panamera Turbo S or Rapide) that excite me and those two models only come with automatics. That’s why I’m more interested in cars from 1990 - early 2000’s before everything got too infused with high-tech driver aids and other modern amenities that distract from a focused driving experience.

In the US, you can pick up an M6 Gran Coupe with a manual.

My GF has a manual M6GC with a Dinan tune. The car is an absolute beast. To be honest, I would much prefer the DCT with this car. It's one thing to drive a NA 420hp/3600lb MT car at the limit. It a completely different story driving a turbo charged 695hp/4600lb MT car anywhere near the limit. Trust me when I say you want both hands on the wheel at all times. The car would be undriveable without traction control, which leads me to the one thing not mentioned above... Improvement in tire technology allowing for the use of the increased horsepower.

[BOOF-M3]

When do we reach the limit on 0 to 60 times? Street cars running 0 to 60 in under 4.5 seconds was unheard of years ago. Now we have Tesla claiming 2.2 seconds and any sport car worth its salt is at 4 or below.

[KPop]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

When do we reach the limit on 0 to 60 times? Street cars running 0 to 60 in under 4.5 seconds was unheard of years ago. Now we have Tesla claiming 2.2 seconds and any sport car worth its salt is at 4 or below.

Wasn’t there some magazine that clocked a DCT E92 M3 at 3.9 seconds from 0-60? Must have been on a prepped surface.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by KPop

Wasn’t there some magazine that clocked a DCT E92 M3 at 3.9 seconds from 0-60? Must have been on a prepped surface.

Motortrend is usually generous with 0-60 because they take off some tenths from wheel spin/launch control engagement time with DCT.

[blue-mw]

Originally Posted by KPop

Wasn’t there some magazine that clocked a DCT E92 M3 at 3.9 seconds from 0-60? Must have been on a prepped surface.

Car & Driver

[65fastback]

Originally Posted by thkfast

We live in a time which could be considered "automotive nirvana". My first real car was a 1969 Mustang Mach 1 351 Windsor 4bbl 4 speed manual - yeah pretty much the shittiest engine available, but I was a college student and it was a cool looking car. It was rated at 290 hp at a SCREAMING HIGH 4,800 rpm - oh boy!

I'm absolutely thrilled with what is happening in the automotive (and motorcycle) world right now.

Not sure who told you your motor was shitty?...I assume you dont have your 69 mach 1 4 spd with that crappy 4bbl windsor motor anymore? News flash... thats a rare motor my friend 1969 was the first year of the windsor design and it was only produced for 1 year in that configuration... the 4bbl version had higher compression & made nearly 400 ft lb of torque! ....after 69 they only produced 2 bbl low compression smaller headed windsors because of the gas situation.

To this day windsor based SBF motors are everywhere in street hotrods and full blown race cars. Far from the shittiest engine available even in 1969.

I do agree though... its a great time to be into cars. Cheers!

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by blue-mw

Lot of good points here, but I fear we're overlooking a very simple factor, folks.

With the influx of performance stickers and decals available in this day and age, it's easy for anyone to achieve as much horsepower as they want. People don't believe my stock E92 is pushing 700HP until I point out all my ECS, DINAN, and ///M stickers. Then they get it.

Agreed, the 6 instead of the 3 on my M badge easily doubles HP and halves 0-60 times

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Pig Farmer

In the US, you can pick up an M6 Gran Coupe with a manual.

My GF has a manual M6GC with a Dinan tune. The car is an absolute beast. To be honest, I would much prefer the DCT with this car. It's one thing to drive a NA 420hp/3600lb MT car at the limit. It a completely different story driving a turbo charged 695hp/4600lb MT car anywhere near the limit. Trust me when I say you want both hands on the wheel at all times. The car would be undriveable without traction control, which leads me to the one thing not mentioned above... Improvement in tire technology allowing for the use of the increased horsepower.

Stage 1 is that aggressive? I heard stage 2 was almost not streetable.

[Pig Farmer]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Stage 1 is that aggressive? I heard stage 2 was almost not streetable.

As long as you are sensible, it's streetable. If you treat the gas pedal like an on/off switch, aggressive is an understatement. The first time I gave it the beans, I broke the tires free shifting into 4th somewhere around 110, and I'm not talking about a little chirp. I had to ride it out to about 130 for fear of unsettling the car. I was not in MDM and had full traction control on. Pushing a heavy car with that much torque is a lot to ask from the OEM's 295 section tire. I plan on experimenting with a 305 section when the current tires are retired. It also helps explain why BMW is moving to AWD on the new M5. The engine is much more capable than the grip allows. I predict that AWD will yield at least an additional second in the 0-60 time and probably more in the 1/4 mile.

[Talk2meg00se]

advances in turbo tech + transmission tech + AWD are producing absurd results.

apparently a stock F90 M5 does 0-60 in 3.1 and the quarter mile in ~11 sec -- the AMG merc is more or less the same.

stock.M5. 3.1 sec.

engineers have solved the wheel spin / power issue via AWD and electronic nannies. stock performance sedans are now putting down modded GTR type numbers.

[WAKman]

I agree we're living in somewhat of a golden age for cars, but I fear it is rapidly coming to an end. Enjoy it while you can.

[M43S7RO]

Let's not forget fuel has been cheap for a while which helps the demand for high hp...

[CSBM5]

I first became enthused about cars in the mid-60s, and by the time I got my license in 1974, the entire performance car hey-day of the late 60s/early 70s had collapsed. You could buy many muscle cars extremely cheaply by 1975 as leaded fuel was getting to be very hard to find, the cars got single digit gas mileage, insurance rates were high, etc. Shelby Mustangs were $2-4k cars then (of course $4k meant a *heck* of a lot more in 1975 than it does today), and more mundane stuff was super cheap. I had a friend who bought a '68 GTO for less than $1k, and he beat on that thing to no end (i.e. 30+ mph in reverse, then slam it into 1st, then 2nd and burn rubber like crazy). Nobody wanted those cars at that point after gas had more than tripled in price, leaded fuel disappeared, etc, especially by later 70s.

Having survived the worst period in performance car history (1974 through mid-80s), survived horrific drivability conditions of early emissions control attempts on various cars, awful, simply awful net HP conditions, etc, the current situation is something I never, ever would have imagined existing. People who haven't been through that era really have no appreciation for what is available today for the most part -- the performance of modern automobiles (and especially modern high performance tires!) is simply taken for granted.