M4 Convertible vs X5 5.0 xDrive

[Super Spartan]

Right, so my wife has a 2017 X5 5.0L xDrive which I've been driving for a while while waiting for my M4 ZCP to arrive.

The M4 arrived and I've been driving it for a week but today my wife asked me to take her car for a car wash. Call me crazy, but I feel the X5 is much snappier than the M4, as in, with the M4, when I floor it, even in Sports or Sports+, there is like 2 second lag until it starts to go really fast but with the X5, be it in comfort or Sports mode, the moment you floor the accelerator you are flying and accelerating really hard.

Can this be true or is it the fact that my car is still in the break-in period? That lag is annoying to be honest. One would think that heavy X5 would be much slower, heck it's not even the X5M, just a regular X5 5.0

Anyone who drove both can shed some light on this?

[Lexor1704]

Hi

That "lag" you feel is traction control limiting you until it feels it is safe. The traction control is very invasive and gives this perception. Try MDM or traction control off and in a straight line do gas from a stop in sport+ and your "lag" will be gone along with some tread on the rears. Enjoy!

[Super Spartan]

Originally Posted by Lexor1704

Hi

That "lag" you feel is traction control limiting you until it feels it is safe. The traction control is very invasive and gives this perception. Try MDM or traction control off and in a straight line do gas from a stop in sport+ and your "lag" will be gone along with some tread on the rears. Enjoy!

LOL, good point, I remember I forgot to turn on MDM or traction control off. I'll try and see how it goes.

[dkhm3]

10k miles on my X5M, 27k miles on my M3.

I have had a completely different experience. DCT? Manual? Do you have both in auto mode? keep in mind the zf 8 speed is a multi clutch torque converter automatic and the dct is a DUAL clutch. You need to drive them in their optimized methods to truly compare them.

You should manually drop the M4/X5 in the correct gear prior to WOT to minimize lag in both cars. The sweet spot for the S55 is >4k rpms. Do the same on the X5 then floor it. If you are driving both in auto mode, the zf does a better job at dropping gears than the dct. If you are driving both in manual, the DCT does a better job snapping the gears. Full throttle kickdowns in auto is not a good method of comparing acceleration, completely useless imho.

There is no comparison, the S55 is a much better engine to me, the top end of the power comes on with such force on the M3 vs the X5M. The specs also show it, with the M3 walking away after 60 mph from the X5M, there more than a half second difference to 100 mph. I've driven the M2 in anger as well, the S55 is the best FI engine BMW makes, in terms of driving pleasure and pull.

Also, if you are flooring the x5 from a standstill, it is AWD, it will connect immediately, the M4 requires modulation of throttle for maximum traction.

I recommend you do this for the M4 asap- CODE EURO MDM, Replace rear tires with larger treads, the 19" oem wheels fit the 295 M5 spec tires without a hitch and is a world changer.

[Super Spartan]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

10k miles on my X5M, 27k miles on my M3.

I have had a completely different experience. DCT? Manual? Do you have both in auto mode? keep in mind the zf 8 speed is a multi clutch torque converter automatic and the dct is a DUAL clutch. You need to drive them in their optimized methods to truly compare them.

You should manually drop the M4 in the correct gear prior to WOT to minimize lag in both cars. The sweet spot for the S55 is >4k rpms. Do the same on the X5 but at 3k rpms then floor it. If you are driving both in auto mode, the zf does a better job at dropping gears than the dct. If you are driving both in manual, the DCT does a better job snapping the gears.

There is no comparison, the S55 is a better engine to me, the top end of the power comes on with such force on the M3 vs the X5M. The specs also show it, with the M3 walking away after 60 mph from the X5M, there more than a half second difference to 100 mph.

Also, if you are flooring the x5 from a standstill, it is AWD, it will connect immediately, the M4 requires modulation of throttle for maximum traction.

I recommend you do this for the M4 asap- CODE EURO MDM, Replace rear tires with larger treads, the 19" oem wheels fit the 295 M5 spec tires without a hitch and is a world changer.

Yes I was driving both in Auto may be that's why. Also, my car already has the Euro MDM since it's Gulf Specs, it says M4 (EUR) when I check its VIN on bummer. Not gonna swap any tires as the car is brand new and has the 20 inch Michelin Pilot Super sports with 265/30ZR20 for the front and 285/30/ZR20 on the rear

[M3lbournE92]

Just a thought, the turbos on the s55 start to kick in around 3,500 rpm. Put the car in sport plus throttle with traction off in second gear and hold on for dear life (do not recommend doing this with cold tires). The s55's engine is for high speed driving on the autobahn, not stoplight racing. The x5 you have makes almost all of its torque before 2 grand rpm so you never feel like your losing power until the car revs out. Heck even a 328i with a tune is faster than my f80 from 0-40 since the turbos are tuned for low rpm. After 40 you'll pass the 328 as if it isn't moving.

Also have you thought of tuning your car? I'm running a jb4 and the car feels like an animal. With a few gallons of e85 I was able to pull on my friends 991.1 turbo from a 60-160 roll which is incredible. If I had a flash tune my car would be even faster but I am waiting for strictly obd2 flash to come out. Right now all ecu tunes require taking out the ecu which isn't good for warranty work if they do find you tampered with the ecu. A jb4 is not the best tune out there since it is a piggyback, but for price and usability the jb4 can't be beaten. I have the jb4 app and I switch between maps all day long which is probably the most fun. In the winter (New York) I keep the car on map 5 (progressive boost map) which doesn't upset the rear tires as much on WOT. The power doesn't surge right away so I'm not stuck looking at a traction control light until 60 mph lol. Hope this helps!

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

10k miles on my X5M, 27k miles on my M3.

I have had a completely different experience. DCT? Manual? Do you have both in auto mode? keep in mind the zf 8 speed is a multi clutch torque converter automatic and the dct is a DUAL clutch. You need to drive them in their optimized methods to truly compare them.

You should manually drop the M4/X5 in the correct gear prior to WOT to minimize lag in both cars. The sweet spot for the S55 is >4k rpms. Do the same on the X5 then floor it. If you are driving both in auto mode, the zf does a better job at dropping gears than the dct. If you are driving both in manual, the DCT does a better job snapping the gears. Full throttle kickdowns in auto is not a good method of comparing acceleration, completely useless imho.

There is no comparison, the S55 is a much better engine to me, the top end of the power comes on with such force on the M3 vs the X5M. The specs also show it, with the M3 walking away after 60 mph from the X5M, there more than a half second difference to 100 mph. I've driven the M2 in anger as well, the S55 is the best FI engine BMW makes, in terms of driving pleasure and pull.

Also, if you are flooring the x5 from a standstill, it is AWD, it will connect immediately, the M4 requires modulation of throttle for maximum traction.

I recommend you do this for the M4 asap- CODE EURO MDM, Replace rear tires with larger treads, the 19" oem wheels fit the 295 M5 spec tires without a hitch and is a world changer.

I'd even say the sweet spot for the S55 is above 5500RPM. That's where the power is.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by M3lbournE92

Just a thought, the turbos on the s55 start to kick in around 3,500 rpm. Put the car in sport plus throttle with traction off in second gear and hold on for dear life (do not recommend doing this with cold tires). The s55's engine is for high speed driving on the autobahn, not stoplight racing. The x5 you have makes almost all of its torque before 2 grand rpm so you never feel like your losing power until the car revs out. Heck even a 328i with a tune is faster than my f80 from 0-40 since the turbos are tuned for low rpm. After 40 you'll pass the 328 as if it isn't moving.

Also have you thought of tuning your car? I'm running a jb4 and the car feels like an animal. With a few gallons of e85 I was able to pull on my friends 991.1 turbo from a 60-160 roll which is incredible. If I had a flash tune my car would be even faster but I am waiting for strictly obd2 flash to come out. Right now all ecu tunes require taking out the ecu which isn't good for warranty work if they do find you tampered with the ecu. A jb4 is not the best tune out there since it is a piggyback, but for price and usability the jb4 can't be beaten. I have the jb4 app and I switch between maps all day long which is probably the most fun. In the winter (New York) I keep the car on map 5 (progressive boost map) which doesn't upset the rear tires as much on WOT. The power doesn't surge right away so I'm not stuck looking at a traction control light until 60 mph lol. Hope this helps!

The boost threshold on the S55 is well below 3500RPM. The engine already makes peak torque at 1850RPM. However, acceleration is about power. Hence to optimize acceleration, one needs to keep it above 5500RPM.

[CanAutM3]

To the OP, are you driving in D mode on your DCT?

[Super Spartan]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

To the OP, are you driving in D mode on your DCT?

well during that brief test I did yes I was in Auto on my DCT and also in Auto on the X5. Tried both Comfort and Sports modes on the M4, that 2-3 second lag before the car starts pulling was there in both modes. Guess I should try it in the manual S Mode

One would think that non-M X5 is a tank but let me tell you, it feels really snappy and agile

[M3lbournE92]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The boost threshold on the S55 is well below 3500RPM. The engine already makes peak torque at 1850RPM. However, acceleration is about power. Hence to optimize acceleration, one needs to keep it above 5500RPM.

Have you driven the new f80's? The car doesn't move until above 3k. I know BMW advertises max torque at 1800 rpm but it's not even close to real world numbers. Just look at dyno charts, the torque still rises until 3k and you can see that in your seat while driving.

[M3lbournE92]

Originally Posted by Snappy Phoenix

well during that brief test I did yes I was in Auto on my DCT and also in Auto on the X5. Tried both Comfort and Sports modes on the M4, that 2-3 second lag before the car starts pulling was there in both modes. Guess I should try it in the manual S Mode

One would think that non-M X5 is a tank but let me tell you, it feels really snappy and agile

Try putting the s55 in sport plus throttle and use the second dct shift setting. This should change your driving experience drastically

[Super Spartan]

Originally Posted by M3lbournE92

Try putting the s55 in sport plus throttle and use the second dct shift setting. This should change your driving experience drastically

will do. Thanks for the tip

[TahoeM3]

Having owned an M4, a' 13 X5 50i M sport M power pkg (440 HP), a '12 X5 50i with Dinan tune (500hp), and a '12 X5M (555hp), I can say that all 3 of the X5s would be reliably faster in most street situations than a stock M4 coupe, and more so than a convertible. The M4 would be faster on the top end, but the X5s launch so hard (esp an X5M with launch mode), that from a standing start, it would be well past 80 if not 100 before the M4 caught up. The X5M is shockingly fast and responsive and has no lag.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

Having owned an M4, a' 13 X5 50i M sport M power pkg (440 HP), a '12 X5 50i with Dinan tune (500hp), and a '12 X5M (555hp), I can say that all 3 of the X5s would be reliably faster in most street situations than a stock M4 coupe, and more so than a convertible. The M4 would be faster on the top end, but the X5s launch so hard (esp an X5M with launch mode), that from a standing start, it would be well past 80 if not 100 before the M4 caught up. The X5M is shockingly fast and responsive and has no lag.

Looking at Car and Driver test numbers, it seems the M4 is quite quicker than both the X5M and X5-50i. In the real world, both the X5 will likely be able to get better launches from rest than the M4 due to xDrive. However, from a roll at pretty much any speed, the M4 should be quicker.

2015 M4 of the left, 2017 X5M on the right

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by M3lbournE92

Have you driven the new f80's?

And have you ?

Your avatar seems to indicate you don't even own one...

I've had my M4 for over 3 years now and have done well over 40 track days with it. So yes, I have driven an F8X more than enough.

Originally Posted by M3lbournE92

The car doesn't move until above 3k. I know BMW advertises max torque at 1800 rpm but it's not even close to real world numbers. Just look at dyno charts, the torque still rises until 3k and you can see that in your seat while driving.

Have you considered that the car is not at WOT when the dyno run is started? Look at different dyno charts, and the initial torque ramps are at different RPM. That is simply because different operators went WOT at different RPM. See the chart below for an example where the sharp initial torque ramp ends at 2400RPM.

There will be significantly more lag at low RPM, because there is less exhaust mass flow to spool the turbos. But once boost is achieved, the torque is there. Because of the lag, the acceleration rate has an impact. The faster the acceleration rate (with a lower gear), the more the RPM will climb before peak boost is achieved.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by TahoeM3

Having owned an M4, a' 13 X5 50i M sport M power pkg (440 HP), a '12 X5 50i with Dinan tune (500hp), and a '12 X5M (555hp), I can say that all 3 of the X5s would be reliably faster in most street situations than a stock M4 coupe, and more so than a convertible. The M4 would be faster on the top end, but the X5s launch so hard (esp an X5M with launch mode), that from a standing start, it would be well past 80 if not 100 before the M4 caught up. The X5M is shockingly fast and responsive and has no lag.

I respect your opinion, but the only time an X5M is close is at launch, otherwise the m3 walks it.

Believe me, I have taken too many WOT stomps on both to know.

If you can catch an X5M on the freeway at 60+ mph, it cannot hide the weight, the awd additional friction, and the lack of top end, there is simply no comparison. In fact, I am actually considering bms stage 1, because it is starting to bug me.

Just look at the power to weight ratio, you get a real understanding of this:

M3- 3,651 lbs 425 HP= 8.6 lbs per hp
X5M- 5,303 lbs 567 HP = 9.35 LBS per HP

What you and the OP are experiencing is AWD off the line.

This is my 3rd X5, 4.8i, 3.5i, M. The M3 when driven correctly- i.e. in the correct gear prior to WOT, will just pummel the X5M from a rolling start.

[M3lbournE92]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

And have you ?

Your avatar seems to indicate you don't even own one...

I've had my M4 for over 3 years now and have done well over 40 track days with it. So yes, I have driven an F8X more than enough.

Have you considered that the car is not at WOT when the dyno run is started? Look at different dyno charts, and the initial torque ramps are at different RPM. That is simply because different operators went WOT at different RPM. See the chart below for an example where the sharp initial torque ramp ends at 2400RPM.

There will be significantly more lag at low RPM, because there is less exhaust mass flow to spool the turbos. But once boost is achieved, the torque is there. Because of the lag, the acceleration rate has an impact. The faster the acceleration rate (with a lower gear), the more the RPM will climb before peak boost is achieved.

I understand I haven't updated my avatar in a while, I'm just over 1 year with my f80 and around 6 DE so I'm definitely familiar with the car. I understand why we have different views of the car. I have a 16 zcp and it seems you have a 14-15 car. I remember reading BMW tried to fix the traction issue by reworking the boost mapping on zcp cars. Maybe because I'm tuned but just like this video my boost takes this long to spool up even on sport plus throttle settings

.

[TahoeM3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Looking at Car and Driver test numbers, it seems the M4 is quite quicker than both the X5M and X5-50i. In the real world, both the X5 will likely be able to get better launches from rest than the M4 due to xDrive. However, from a roll at pretty much any speed, the M4 should be quicker.

2015 M4 of the left, 2017 X5M on the right

I agree it shouldn't be faster based on the test result, and I haven't done head to head testing. But having had those cars I mentioned, in my experience I don't see any chance the M4 would be able to win any test in the first two gears.

From third on, the M4 definitely has the advantage. But from a standing start in most situations, I think the X5M would be so far ahead that the M4 wouldn't catch up until well into 3rd gear. And even from a low-speed roll. Maybe other people are better at getting the M4 off the line than I was, but the X5 has tons of torque and even with its weight, catapults off the line with ease thanks to the AWD.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The boost threshold on the S55 is well below 3500RPM. The engine already makes peak torque at 1850RPM. However, acceleration is about power. Hence to optimize acceleration, one needs to keep it above 5500RPM.

My anecdotal observation is that at 0-20mph speeds lots of other cars (e.g., a regular ford focus) feel faster than a M4 (and really any high horsepower car I've had over the last decade). You probably know why this is but just seems to be a "feature" of a high horsepower sport tuned car: under 20 mph they don't feel fast.

The focus, for example, feels super fast below 30 MPH but quickly turns into jello and try to race it and it doesn't seem to even start.

Net-net, if I'm buying a car to feel racy on the side streets an M4 would be a horrible choice and maybe an X5 is much better.

[dkhm3]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

My anecdotal observation is that at 0-20mph speeds lots of other cars (e.g., a regular ford focus) feel faster than a M4 (and really any high horsepower car I've had over the last decade). You probably know why this is but just seems to be a "feature" of a high horsepower sport tuned car: under 20 mph they don't feel fast.

The focus, for example, feels super fast below 30 MPH but quickly turns into jello and try to race it and it doesn't seem to even start.

Net-net, if I'm buying a car to feel racy on the side streets an M4 would be a horrible choice and maybe an X5 is much better.

I hope no one endangers others by racing, but in my experience most races don't stop at 20 mph, usually it goes on until someone is clearly winning or someone chickens out.

Other times, it happens on the highway, at much higher speeds.

The problem with the x5m is that unless the race started from a stop, the engine has too many pounds to pull, too much tire 325 rears/285 fronts to compensate for, too much additional friction of AWD to overcome.

At the end of the day you're talking about a mass that weighs almost 3 tons with you in it. This is like a 300 lbs Usain Bolt getting Olympic Gold in the 100 meter. If the race was down a hill, I guess he could win by rolling.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I hope no one endangers others by racing, but in my experience most races don't stop at 20 mph, usually it goes on until someone is clearly winning or someone chickens out.

my point was, I get lots of rentals (including SUVs) that, driving between lights on a small side street feel super peppy - much faster than my M4. But then full throttle get onto the freeway, or try to pass on the freeway, and they're laughable. The M4 on the other hand, doesn't feel as peppy on a small side street, but she'll scare the shit out of you on the freeway.