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      05-17-2018, 10:58 AM   #1
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Complaining about M? How about a little perspective?

During his speech at the Annual General Meeting of BMW AG in Munich earlier today, Harald Krüger, chairman of the board of management, gave his report to stockholders. He talked about how 2017 was the company's 8th consecutive record year - and how BMW is the most profitable car company in the world. He talked about how all brands and model series are going electric. He talked about the BMW i4 and BMW iNEXT. He talked about 2018 being BMW's "X year," with the X3, X2, X4 and X5. He talked about the shift toward sustainable, digitalised mobility. And he talked about "two highly emotional vehicles" - the i8 Roadster and the Z4 concept - that were on display next to the stage.

But he never mentioned M Performance.

While it's normal to focus on things with a high degree of "WOW Factor" in an annual meeting - positive financials, market expansion and new models - this should also be a reminder that while we're arguing about the differences between M2 and M2 Competition lug nuts or how the M5 Competition magically appeared, we ought to be thrilled that a small division like M Performance still exists - and hope that 5 or 10 years down the road, BMW is still offering some really great choices for us. I don't know about you, but today I'm going to take a couple of hours off, find a curvy road and drive my M2 - just for the fun of it.

Last edited by Spa2k; 05-17-2018 at 11:07 AM.
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      05-20-2018, 07:13 PM   #2
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He lost me when I read "highly emotional" and "i8" in the same sentence
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      05-20-2018, 10:34 PM   #3
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BMW Motorsport. Not M Performance. That's the problem.
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      05-20-2018, 11:58 PM   #4
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Who cares about the M when you can buy a 135i for 18k get a tune and some bolt ons and for 1/2 the price blow the M away .
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      05-21-2018, 04:25 AM   #5
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I remember you could give an e92 a small burger tune & it would eat the M3. M has slowly lost its appeal. Too much "M-pack"

oh, & is TS going to get a pedicure after driving their little M2 around?
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      05-21-2018, 06:06 AM   #6
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because the enthusiast market is dying.

more people would rather throw a tune on a n54/n55 car and drive it in a straight line. rather then hustle an e92 m3 down a back road without traction control on catching every little micro slide on corner exit.
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      05-21-2018, 06:26 AM   #7
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the brand just isn't what it used to be.
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      05-21-2018, 07:15 AM   #8
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I agree M cars are not what they used to be. Everything is fast nowadays and tuneable cuz turbo. But most these comments from butthurt non-M owners.
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      05-21-2018, 01:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
because the enthusiast market is dying.

more people would rather throw a tune on a n54/n55 car and drive it in a straight line. rather then hustle an e92 m3 down a back road without traction control on catching every little micro slide on corner exit.
No one wants to take a M3 that costs 70k around the back roads...it could get rock chips all over it that add to its already amazingly rapid depreciation...
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      05-21-2018, 02:01 PM   #10
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I'm a soon to be M owner, so I'll let you know after I drive it for awhile in Germany. I'm just taking a guess though, that there is more to it than just how fast it goes to 60....just a guess.
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      05-21-2018, 02:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N55darksoul View Post
Who cares about the M when you can buy a 135i for 18k get a tune and some bolt ons and for 1/2 the price blow the M away .
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      05-21-2018, 02:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
But he never mentioned M Performance.
.....

we ought to be thrilled that a small division like M Performance still exists - and hope that 5 or 10 years down the road, BMW is still offering some really great choices for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM dnobagaV View Post
M has slowly lost its appeal. Too much "M-pack"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
because the enthusiast market is dying.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY View Post
I agree M cars are not what they used to be.

First of all I dont think M gmbh is a small devision. Audi RS, AMG migth even be smaller (AMG probably not anymore), and branches like RS (either ford or renault), Type R (honda) and such branding for certain.

But out of the reactions here nobody cares about how much money bmw makes. Thats interesting for the stock holders. The reactions here point out that the enthousiasts are interested in the cars bmw makes and how they perform or what sense of performance they give to the driver.

How is it that 20 years ago a bmw M car was the car that had the best engine performance (I'm pointing at the Euro spec e36 M3; living in europe, I remember what impact that car had), having an engine with real motorsport tech, and had by far the best handling over its competition, and now the competition has surpassed them? The current M3/4 is 50-80HP short on its competition, and the M2 (now bmw's nicest M car imho) is virtually outhandled/performed by a civic that costs less than half (where I live anyway). M cars now are expensive and dont really give the performance to beat the competition (so their price is not justified).
If I was interested in buying a car from a certain company because they made so many annual profit or revenue, I'd buy a toyota.
But annual profit/revenue or growth doesnt say anything about a car, it says something about how much they sell and how much profit margin they can squeeze out of it, in other words how expensive they can sell cheap things.

If profit margin is so high, or growth is so fantastic, why dont they endeavour in more exciting projects, like building a supercar (like mercedes does). Those can act like an image booster for a brand which appeals to enthousiasts.
Why manages alfa romeo, a tiny brand, to produce a mid size saloon with a ferrari build engine that produces 70hp more for only small price more than what a m4 costs? (and on top of that handles accordingly or even better, and also looks stunningly). Sure the interior quality or practicality might be slightly less, but that is not a key factor for a drivers enthousiast market. However its a key factor for the slightly older, more boring person. True, those persons have more money, and are more in numbers (see where I'm going?)

Or why does honda or renault build very focussed track cars that rival performance of a m2 for half the price.
Those brands dont build those cars because those cars will give them huge profits, but they build them because it gives them an image boost. Because those cars meet the demands of a few car/driver enthousiasts and that can have a snowballing effect. For those brands its an investment. And to me that is what lacking with bmw the last say 10-15 years.
The last bmw highlight in this matter was when they had the e46 m3 csl, and the biggest disappointment was probably not having an M version of the e89m because they raced that car in GT3 (but with V8, different suspension, etc), and they won everything. That car was hugely succesful. If growth and profit were so huge (now for 8 years in a row), why not build a street e89gt3 version, commemorating that race succes? Just an idea.
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Last edited by GuidoK; 05-21-2018 at 02:34 PM.
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      05-21-2018, 03:38 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N55darksoul View Post
Who cares about the M when you can buy a 135i for 18k get a tune and some bolt ons and for 1/2 the price blow the M away .
135i tuned and save half my money instead of my M4? BRILLIANT

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      05-21-2018, 03:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
First of all I dont think M gmbh is a small devision. Audi RS, AMG migth even be smaller (AMG probably not anymore), and branches like RS (either ford or renault), Type R (honda) and such branding for certain.

But out of the reactions here nobody cares about how much money bmw makes. Thats interesting for the stock holders. The reactions here point out that the enthousiasts are interested in the cars bmw makes and how they perform or what sense of performance they give to the driver.

How is it that 20 years ago a bmw M car was the car that had the best engine performance (I'm pointing at the Euro spec e36 M3; living in europe, I remember what impact that car had), having an engine with real motorsport tech, and had by far the best handling over its competition, and now the competition has surpassed them? The current M3/4 is 50-80HP short on its competition, and the M2 (now bmw's nicest M car imho) is virtually outhandled/performed by a civic that costs less than half (where I live anyway). M cars now are expensive and dont really give the performance to beat the competition (so their price is not justified).
If I was interested in buying a car from a certain company because they made so many annual profit or revenue, I'd buy a toyota.
But annual profit/revenue or growth doesnt say anything about a car, it says something about how much they sell and how much profit margin they can squeeze out of it, in other words how expensive they can sell cheap things.

If profit margin is so high, or growth is so fantastic, why dont they endeavour in more exciting projects, like building a supercar (like mercedes does). Those can act like an image booster for a brand which appeals to enthousiasts.
Why manages alfa romeo, a tiny brand, to produce a mid size saloon with a ferrari build engine that produces 70hp more for only small price more than what a m4 costs? (and on top of that handles accordingly or even better, and also looks stunningly). Sure the interior quality or practicality might be slightly less, but that is not a key factor for a drivers enthousiast market. However its a key factor for the slightly older, more boring person. True, those persons have more money, and are more in numbers (see where I'm going?)

Or why does honda or renault build very focussed track cars that rival performance of a m2 for half the price.
Those brands dont build those cars because those cars will give them huge profits, but they build them because it gives them an image boost. Because those cars meet the demands of a few car/driver enthousiasts and that can have a snowballing effect. For those brands its an investment. And to me that is what lacking with bmw the last say 10-15 years.
The last bmw highlight in this matter was when they had the e46 m3 csl, and the biggest disappointment was probably not having an M version of the e89m because they raced that car in GT3 (but with V8, different suspension, etc), and they won everything. That car was hugely succesful. If growth and profit were so huge (now for 8 years in a row), why not build a street e89gt3 version, commemorating that race succes? Just an idea.
Valid points. Not that I disagree with you. Has the M cars lost some of its aura over the years? Yeah, but does that make them less desirable? I don't think so. And I'll even throw the Audi RS and Mercedes AMG line in here as well.

There's no denying that for example, the new Honda Civic Type R approaches the performance of your favorite M car. Some may even say the Type R out performs it. But let's look what these cars are targeting though. Type R is aimed towards a much younger crowd with a bit less disposable income. M cars are aimed towards a more mature crowd, with more disposable income.

Lastly, I'll say this, as someone who is currently driving a Type-R like vehicle (Mazdaspeed 3 here). I bought the car when I was in my mid 20's and at that time, luxury/comfort anything was on the bottom of the list. Now that I'm in my early 30's, cars like my Mazdaspeed 3 and the Type R are down right punishing to drive, and I lack essentially all of the luxury convenience.

That to me is why my next car will be a M car. I want to go just as fast, I want to be just as agile/nimble, but damn it, I want the car to be livable as well.

That's my opinion.
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      05-21-2018, 04:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
He lost me when I read "highly emotional" and "i8" in the same sentence
I test drove the i8 and it was entertaining but then I drove an M2 afterward - both on some twisty roads. The M2 was much more fun. It accelerated and handled much better.

I agree the i8 is not really an exciting car.
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      05-21-2018, 05:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
While it's normal to focus on things with a high degree of "WOW Factor" in an annual meeting - positive financials, market expansion and new models - this should also be a reminder that while we're arguing about the differences between M2 and M2 Competition lug nuts or how the M5 Competition magically appeared, we ought to be thrilled that a small division like M Performance still exists - and hope that 5 or 10 years down the road, BMW is still offering some really great choices for us. I don't know about you, but today I'm going to take a couple of hours off, find a curvy road and drive my M2 - just for the fun of it.
You have the right idea. We need to enjoy whats available now.

But i'd wager that 5-10 years from now M will be unrecognizable. Electric is already the present and the future, especially if management looks at an i8 and says it is 'emotional'.
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      05-21-2018, 06:14 PM   #17
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I realised that ///M stood for Marketing, and not Motorsport, the day that I saw a 4-series diesel in my local BMW dealers which had more M badges on it than my M5 and my Z4M combined.

BMW will keep M as a "halo" product as long as it helps them to sell other cars, but sadly (judging by car adverts on UK TV), the emphasis for car sales these days is much less on performance and more on environmental credentials and whether the car has an internet connection.

Plus it's almost impossible to utilise the performance of my M3 anywhere on public roads :-(
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      05-21-2018, 06:32 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
the biggest disappointment was probably not having an M version of the e89m because they raced that car in GT3 (but with V8, different suspension, etc), and they won everything. That car was hugely succesful. If growth and profit were so huge (now for 8 years in a row), why not build a street e89gt3 version, commemorating that race succes? Just an idea.
Funny I've been saying the same thing for years where you even called it such a ridiculous idea due to "differentials not fitting"
Needless to say, I'm surprised to find you finally in agreement with me on this

A Z4 M along those lines would've been absolutely incredible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK
BMW would never sell a GT3 style car for the road.
No they couldn't have made an e89 m.
For that they always root around in their M parts bin.
And by opting for an x3 style rear axle (that is very similar to the e46 one), they also immediately decided that contemporary 3 series rear suspension stuff wouldnt work. E46 rear suspension parts (mainly the LSD) isnt/wasnt available anymore (at least, not in those numbers, you can only get refurbs now I think), so those parts werent on hand anymore in the numbers they would need them to be to create an M.
So they could have only made an e89 M if it wouldnt have an LSD, and I'm pretty sure that that wont happen ever.
And they're not going to start up a drivetrain fabrication plant just for a few e89 z4m possible sales. For that you need to sell in the 10k or 100k numbers (thats why they normally use m3 parts)
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      05-21-2018, 06:38 PM   #19
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If only every BMW didn't have the M Package and made it look very similar to an M ar both in interior and exterior, the M cars would still have more appear and look special.

My wife had a 428i Convertible 2016 and now a 2017 X5 and I had 2 M4s, the steering wheel is the exact same, M badges everywhere, it's not as special a the old E46 days when M used to really mean something special.
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      05-21-2018, 06:53 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
During his speech at the Annual General Meeting of BMW AG in Munich earlier today, Harald Krüger, chairman of the board of management, gave his report to stockholders. He talked about how 2017 was the company's 8th consecutive record year - and how BMW is the most profitable car company in the world. He talked about how all brands and model series are going electric. He talked about the BMW i4 and BMW iNEXT. He talked about 2018 being BMW's "X year," with the X3, X2, X4 and X5. He talked about the shift toward sustainable, digitalised mobility. And he talked about "two highly emotional vehicles" - the i8 Roadster and the Z4 concept - that were on display next to the stage.

But he never mentioned M Performance.

While it's normal to focus on things with a high degree of "WOW Factor" in an annual meeting - positive financials, market expansion and new models - this should also be a reminder that while we're arguing about the differences between M2 and M2 Competition lug nuts or how the M5 Competition magically appeared, we ought to be thrilled that a small division like M Performance still exists - and hope that 5 or 10 years down the road, BMW is still offering some really great choices for us. I don't know about you, but today I'm going to take a couple of hours off, find a curvy road and drive my M2 - just for the fun of it.
Many on this and other BMW forums write about BMW losing its way. Some predicted that BMW is washed up and will fail because they aren't the brand they used to be, don't cater to the enthusiast, dilute the M brand by putting the M logo on anything and everything, don't listen to us very knowedable forum members and do what we say, etc.

The auto market is fiercely competitive and changing rapaidly with government regulations, increased safety, the move toward electric, etc.


Many of the forum members are business people. Simply put, BMW exists to make a profit for its shareholders. While some of us don't like their product direction, its hard to argue that they have lost their way as a business.

As a BMW owner for the past 30 years and a car enthusiast, my personal view is they are doing and incredible job.
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      05-21-2018, 07:11 PM   #21
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If only every BMW didn't have the M Package and made it look very similar to an M ar both in interior and exterior, the M cars would still have more appear and look special.

My wife had a 428i Convertible 2016 and now a 2017 X5 and I had 2 M4s, the steering wheel is the exact same, M badges everywhere, it's not as special a the old E46 days when M used to really mean something special.
As a fan (not a BMW owner yet, but soon I hope!), I was baffled at M-badged X series. WHY?! (Same goes for Porsche SUV's, Audi SQ line, any SUV that breaks the 350hp mark)
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      05-21-2018, 07:12 PM   #22
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As a fan (not a BMW owner yet, but soon I hope!), I was baffled at M-badged X series. WHY?! (Same goes for Porsche SUV's, Audi SQ line, any SUV that breaks the 350hp mark)
Yeah my wife has an X5 50i with the M Package, it has so many M badges you'd thinks this is an X5M at first glance
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