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      03-03-2014, 09:47 AM   #1
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Winter Driving / Snow Tire Banter

hmm...so how are you guys driving around in snow again?...mine wouldn't make it up a very slight hill...had to get out and walk home...if your moving whole time its fine but once you stop its over in packed snow or ice..e36 and e46 M3 not drivable in snow either.
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      03-03-2014, 09:53 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by mact3333
hmm...so how are you guys driving around in snow with DCT again?...mine wouldn't make it up a very slight hill...had to get out and walk home...if your moving whole time its fine but once you stop its over in packed snow or ice..e36 and e46 M3 not drivable in snow either.
Try it with snow tires.
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      03-03-2014, 10:35 AM   #3
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hmm...so how are you guys driving around in snow again?...mine wouldn't make it up a very slight hill...had to get out and walk home...if your moving whole time its fine but once you stop its over in packed snow or ice..e36 and e46 M3 not drivable in snow either.
Yeah - without snows you have problems.
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      03-03-2014, 10:35 AM   #4
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Try it with snow tires.

I was sure thinking it too.

If you've got the right tires on the car it'll go anywhere a 3 Series will go. Or a cop car, or RWD Lexus for that matter. Or even a Camry or a Civic. Or hell, even a 2WD SUV or pickup truck in conditions where their additional ground clearance isn't necessary.

So, if you are getting stuck on a hill then you should expect to be one of many in vehicles similar to yours. If that is the case, yes please buy an AWD vehicle or whatever is necessary for the uniquely hilly or mountainous terrain and conditions in your area. However, if others in their family cars are zipping up the same hill you are getting stuck on, that's your clue that you have the wrong tires on the car.
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      03-03-2014, 11:00 AM   #5
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hmm...so how are you guys driving around in snow again?...mine wouldn't make it up a very slight hill...had to get out and walk home...if your moving whole time its fine but once you stop its over in packed snow or ice..e36 and e46 M3 not drivable in snow either.
What kind of tires were you running?
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      03-03-2014, 01:16 PM   #6
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well where I live it only snows 3-4 days a year so I have never bought snow tires...so the answer is no I didn't have snow tires...I have had many many cars before and I have to say, the BMW's esp the M3's and 335D's are the worst in the snow and ice without snow tires...too torquey...never been stuck with FWD cars in snow ever...and I have had 10 BMW's so far so I do have experience with these cars.

Matter of fact, a month ago when everyone had that snow, I was at Burgerville parking lot with slush only(few days after most of snow fall)...I couldn't get the car moving in reverse...if the car in front of me hadn't left and I didn't have towels to put under rear wheels I would have been stuck in 3-4 inches of slush only...that was kinda embarrassing.

BTW, if you have snow tires or studded tires, it really doesn't matter what kind of car you drive or if its in pure ice or snow, the tires make all the difference.
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      03-03-2014, 01:30 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
well where I live it only snows 3-4 days a year so I have never bought snow tires...so the answer is no I didn't have snow tires...I have had many many cars before and I have to say, the BMW's esp the M3's and 335D's are the worst in the snow and ice without snow tires...too torquey...never been stuck with FWD cars in snow ever...and I have had 10 BMW's so far so I do have experience with these cars.

Matter of fact, a month ago when everyone had that snow, I was at Burgerville parking lot with slush only(few days after most of snow fall)...I couldn't get the car moving in reverse...if the car in front of me hadn't left and I didn't have towels to put under rear wheels I would have been stuck in 3-4 inches of slush only...that was kinda embarrassing.

BTW, if you have snow tires or studded tires, it really doesn't matter what kind of car you drive or if its in pure ice or snow, the tires make all the difference.
You're right about the tyres- I've seen 4x4 vehicles stuck in the snow on summer tyres. Winter tyres are a must for any vehicle if you want to drive in those conditions. With winter tyres M3 will cause no more problems in the snow than any other BMW.
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      03-03-2014, 01:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
well where I live it only snows 3-4 days a year so I have never bought snow tires...so the answer is no I didn't have snow tires...I have had many many cars before and I have to say, the BMW's esp the M3's and 335D's are the worst in the snow and ice without snow tires...too torquey...never been stuck with FWD cars in snow ever...and I have had 10 BMW's so far so I do have experience with these cars.

Matter of fact, a month ago when everyone had that snow, I was at Burgerville parking lot with slush only(few days after most of snow fall)...I couldn't get the car moving in reverse...if the car in front of me hadn't left and I didn't have towels to put under rear wheels I would have been stuck in 3-4 inches of slush only...that was kinda embarrassing.

BTW, if you have snow tires or studded tires, it really doesn't matter what kind of car you drive or if its in pure ice or snow, the tires make all the difference.
FYI if you're on summer performance tires, which is VERY likely with an M3, they aren't designed to operate well below 40-45 degrees LET ALONE snowing temperatures (even without snow). The rubber compound hardens up as the temperature drops so you don't get the grip. Even "all seasons" start to suffer when you hit freezing and below big time. . .

The first day I had my 335i xdrive out in the snow and I backed (read: slid) down my driveway and out into the road with my summer tires was the last day I vowed to ever ride them again.

Winter tires for the winter and the cars perform fantastically. Your original post could be very misleading to someone worried about getting one in the northeastern US that sees snow 3-5 times a year! There are solutions, and paying 750 for a set of winter tires is a very easy one when you're driving a 60k+ car as your DD.
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      03-03-2014, 01:45 PM   #9
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yeah I agree if it snows a lot where you live sure you should have an extra set of snow tires but for many, it doesn't snow enough to the justify cost....you gotta buy rims too...if it was just about buying tires I would have bought snow tires even if I only used it few times per year...but with rims its 2000.00 to get a winter set up.

And while snow tires make a difference , it isn't everything, as my MDX with summer tires has no problems...I also had a Carerra 4S with summer tires and it did great in snow...there is no snowy or icy conditions I wouldn't tackle if I had AWD with summer tires.

But with BMW's with summer tires, its scary out there in snow.....
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      03-03-2014, 02:06 PM   #10
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yeah I agree if it snows a lot where you live sure you should have an extra set of snow tires but for many, it doesn't snow enough to the justify cost....you gotta buy rims too...if it was just about buying tires I would have bought snow tires even if I only used it few times per year...but with rims its 2000.00 to get a winter set up.

And while snow tires make a difference , it isn't everything, as my MDX with summer tires has no problems...I also had a Carerra 4S with summer tires and it did great in snow...there is no snowy or icy conditions I wouldn't tackle if I had AWD with summer tires.

But with BMW's with summer tires, its scary out there in snow.....
Isn't your MDX AWD? Isn't the Carrera AWD as well? That AWD advantage was likely a major factor in helping you get some traction off the line.

I would think that the MDX would come with all-season tires anyway?

Driving on snow is scary with ANY RWD car on summer tires. What makes you think that the actual car makes a difference when the only thing contacting the road surface (or snow-covered road surface) is the tires? The only real difference maker would be the drivetrain setup (AWD/FWD vs. RWD).

So again, if the cars you drove on snow with no problems were AWD cars, then that is a major difference.

Summer tires are not meant to be run in ambient temperatures below 45 degrees Fahrenheit. Below that temperature, those tires (with their harder compound) turn into hockey pucks.

And you don't have to buy new rims/wheels to run snow tires.

I'm running my stock OEM 18" wheels with a square 225-section Bridgestone Blizzak LM32 setup:



I'll be buying new wheels for my summer tires just so I can do the swaps myself each season, as I do not have the equipment to remove the tires from the rims. Buying a second set of wheels is not mandatory, but it is convenient.
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      03-03-2014, 02:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
Isn't your MDX AWD? Isn't the Carrera AWD as well? That AWD advantage was likely a major factor in helping you get some traction off the line.

I would think that the MDX would come with all-season tires anyway?

Driving on snow is scary with ANY RWD car on summer tires. What makes you think that the actual car makes a difference when the only thing contacting the road surface (or snow-covered road surface) is the tires? The only real difference maker would be the drivetrain setup (AWD/FWD vs. RWD).

So again, if the cars you drove on snow with no problems were AWD cars, then that is a major difference.

Summer tires are not meant to be run in ambient temperatures below 45 degrees Fahrenheit. Below that temperature, those tires (with their harder compound) turn into hockey pucks.

And you don't have to buy new rims/wheels to run snow tires.

I'm running my stock OEM 18" wheels with a square 225-section Bridgestone Blizzak LM32 setup:



I'll be buying new wheels for my summer tires just so I can do the swaps myself each season, as I do not have the equipment to remove the tires from the rims. Buying a second set of wheels is not mandatory, but it is convenient.

LOL...guess I am not being clear...I specifically mentioned MDX and C4S cause I was implying AWD helps tremendously and it doesn't matter if you have summer or winter tires with AWD.

With RWD and winter tires, there should be no problems either unless you are a bad driver.....the OP didn't say anything about running snow tires at first...so my point was to show him that if he thinks he is running summer tires in snow or ice since everyone was telling him how well the M3(with or without DCT) does in snow, then he will be in for a rude awakening.

Lastly, to say that any RWD in summer tires would do the same in snow or ice is incorrect...a 100HP RWD will not behave the same as a Viper...our cars have a lot of torque and are abit more difficult to control in ice and snow with summer tires when compared to lesser HP cars.

Of course you don't need new rims in addition to snow tires but really, who has a tire changing machine at home?...and you find out it will snow the night before and you're gonna run the tires over to tire shop and have them swap with your oem rims?...sure its not mandatory but come on.

And people keep saying summer sport tires aren't meant to be used below 45 degrees but I have run such tires way down to 25 degrees and didn't have any issues on my C4S and FWD cars and no they didn't feel like hockey pucks.....

Not here to argue about this point just stating my opinions...
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      03-03-2014, 03:05 PM   #12
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LOL...guess I am not being clear...I specifically mentioned MDX and C4S cause I was implying AWD helps tremendously and it doesn't matter if you have summer or winter tires with AWD.

With RWD and winter tires, there should be no problems either unless you are a bad driver.....the OP didn't say anything about running snow tires at first...so my point was to show him that if he thinks he is running summer tires in snow or ice since everyone was telling him how well the M3(with or without DCT) does in snow, then he will be in for a rude awakening.

Lastly, to say that any RWD in summer tires would do the same in snow or ice is incorrect...a 100HP RWD will not behave the same as a Viper...our cars have a lot of torque and are abit more difficult to control in ice and snow with summer tires when compared to lesser HP cars.

Of course you don't need new rims in addition to snow tires but really, who has a tire changing machine at home?...and you find out it will snow the night before and you're gonna run the tires over to tire shop and have them swap with your oem rims?...sure its not mandatory but come on.

And people keep saying summer sport tires aren't meant to be used below 45 degrees but I have run such tires way down to 25 degrees and didn't have any issues on my C4S and FWD cars and no they didn't feel like hockey pucks.....

Not here to argue about this point just stating my opinions...
I guess I'm not being clear.

I once had a C230 that had less than 200 horsepower.

With the staggered summer tires still mounted, I could not travel a mere foot up my driveway (and there was only an inch of snow on the ground).

So I'll let this speak for itself:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/winterdr...s-track-tested

"Summer performance tires tend to turn rock-hard and lose grip once the temperature drops below fifty degrees Fahrenheit or so."

I'm not stating my opinion. I'm stating common knowledge in the automotive world.

I just pray to God I'm not anywhere near you when you have to slam on the brakes at 50 mph with snow on the ground whilst driving your summer-tire equipped vehicle.
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      03-03-2014, 09:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
hmm...so how are you guys driving around in snow with DCT again?...mine wouldn't make it up a very slight hill...had to get out and walk home...if your moving whole time its fine but once you stop its over in packed snow or ice..e36 and e46 M3 not drivable in snow either.
I'm from Seattle and drove an e39 M5 with 275 wide tires in the back through snow. It wasn't the greatest, but Continental DWS tires seems to hold up to the modest snowfall most of the Pac NW gets without having to change tires.

That said, proper tires are HUGE. I've been so impressed at what a difference true snow tires make in the snow and ice. It really is stunning how much better they are than the best all seasons. You can generally get to where you are going with AS, but the confidence that snows give you has to be experienced.
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      03-03-2014, 10:14 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
LOL...guess I am not being clear...I specifically mentioned MDX and C4S cause I was implying AWD helps tremendously and it doesn't matter if you have summer or winter tires with AWD.

Not here to argue about this point just stating my opinions...
Your opinion is total BS. With Extreme Performance Summer tires, like PSSs, it doesn't matter if you have 8 wheels driven - in snow and ice you are in deep caca. Likely your MDX has All-Seasons, which while not as good as true Winters, can be okay, especially with AWD.
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      03-03-2014, 10:30 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
Your opinion is total BS. With Extreme Performance Summer tires, like PSSs, it doesn't matter if you have 8 wheels driven - in snow and ice you are in deep caca. Likely your MDX has All-Seasons, which while not as good as true Winters, can be okay, especially with AWD.
Greg,

With all due respect, you don't know what you are talking about. I had Michelin Pilot Sports on my Carerra 4S and I drove home in 2 inches of snow in blizzard like conditions for 30 miles with absolutely no issues...no slippage...none...granted I didn't need to come to dead stop or slam on brakes anywhere as the roads were fairly empty.

I doubt you have ever driven on sporty summer tires in snow with an AWD car.

You guys keep missing the point...if you have AWD(even with summer tires) or if you have any type(RWD/FWD) of car with winter(esp siped or studded) tires, you should do fine in snow...now if you are a poor driver, then nothing will help you.
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      03-04-2014, 12:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon View Post
With Extreme Performance Summer tires, like PSSs, it doesn't matter if you have 8 wheels driven - in snow and ice you are in deep caca. Likely your MDX has All-Seasons, which while not as good as true Winters, can be okay, especially with AWD.


Thank you for the back-up there.

I was trying to help the guy lol (safety first).
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      03-04-2014, 12:10 AM   #17
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You guys keep missing the point...if you have AWD(even with summer tires) or if you have any type(RWD/FWD) of car with winter(esp siped or studded) tires, you should do fine in snow...now if you are a poor driver, then nothing will help you.
No offense but I have never heard of anyone conquering blizzard-like conditions with summer tires, regardless of whether they had AWD, 4WD, etc.

Your claims are remarkable. I have never seen anyone make such claims. I'm not calling you a liar, I am just utterly amazed.

But yes, I agree that a RWD car with proper snow tires can perform well in the snow because I've utilized RWD snow tire setups my entire life.
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      03-07-2014, 05:47 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon
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Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
LOL...guess I am not being clear...I specifically mentioned MDX and C4S cause I was implying AWD helps tremendously and it doesn't matter if you have summer or winter tires with AWD.

Not here to argue about this point just stating my opinions...
Your opinion is total BS. With Extreme Performance Summer tires, like PSSs, it doesn't matter if you have 8 wheels driven - in snow and ice you are in deep caca. Likely your MDX has All-Seasons, which while not as good as true Winters, can be okay, especially with AWD.
having driven Audis for 10+ years before getting my first BMW I would for the most part agree with you------you've gotta have the right tires no matter what.

BUT the difference is that if you have all-season tires on an AWD its usually enough.....I personally had snow tires on my last A3 quattro but they sometimes felt like overkill. I remember getting stuck in an ice storm on Summer tires in the A3 and while it was not optimal it wasn't the end of the world.....meaning it was doable by a reasonably experienced driver.

Fast forward 3 years and at the beginning of this winter I got stuck in an ice storm with my summer runflat tires on the 135is and it was pure misery! lol. I swapped over to snow tires the next day. lol!

tires, however, I feel are more important than the car, transmission, etc.
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      03-07-2014, 10:39 AM   #19
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BUT the difference is that if you have all-season tires on an AWD its usually enough.....
Until its not good enough!

All season tires are a compromise in all seasons. If you are a driving enthusiast why would you give up the additional performance and safety benefits of proper tires that are suited to the temperatures of the season.
There is also the issue of the wear and tear on your summer wheels when you use them in snow, slush and salt.
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      03-07-2014, 10:43 AM   #20
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Until its not good enough!

All season tires are a compromise in all seasons. If you are a driving enthusiast why would you give up the additional performance and safety benefits of proper tires that are suited to the temperatures of the season.
There is also the issue of the wear and tear on your summer wheels when you use them in snow, slush and salt.
i've always run snow tires on my quattros as i mentioned before so i agree with you...

the majority of people do NOT use snow tires....and most of the Audis/Subarus/AWD cars you see on the road are running all-seasons. The difference is that an AWD car benefits greatly from snow tires, BUT are not necessary. A RWD car MUST have snow tires to be even competent.
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      03-07-2014, 10:49 AM   #21
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BUT are not necessary.
But they very well could be necessary. AWD does nothing for breaking distance and in many winter conditions winter tires stop better than all seasons.
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      03-07-2014, 10:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
the majority of people do NOT use snow tires....and most of the Audis/Subarus/AWD cars you see on the road are running all-seasons. The difference is that an AWD car benefits greatly from snow tires, BUT are not necessary. A RWD car MUST have snow tires to be even competent.
We ran performance all-seasons on a 335i for a couple winters (and summers) and didn't have a problem. Neither were particularly bad winters, however. Now, summer tires, in the winter? I wouldn't even give that a try if I had AWD. I'm sure it can be done in certain limited situations but to do that for a whole winter is just tempting fate. If I lived in a place with just a few cold or snowy days a year, I'd plan to park the car with the summer tires for those days and find alternate means or transportation.

To add to your point about AWD cars and all-seasons, the same holds true for FWD cars. For RWD cars, it would be interesting to know how it breaks out. I imagine many come from the factory with summer tires which means most owners of those cars will use winter tires in the winter. However, there are probably a lot of pony cars, Chryslers 300s, etc. sold with all-seasons. They may out-number the sports cars and sport/luxury cars that come with summer tires.
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