[stevehecht]

I've started a discussion about tuning boxes for the N47 over on the N20 forum, so I am moving it over here. Hopefully, Mike@N54Tuning.com will contribute to the discussion here and give us some good information. I will reproduce an email I received from Hartge regarding their piggyback box and I hope that Mike will compare and contrast the two for us.

My questions are:

1) Hartge and the other German tuners (Kelleners Sport, AC Schnitzer, Steinbauer) claim that their boxes are superior to the cheaper boxes because they work primarily by manipulating main injection time rather than by increasing CR pressure and boost. My impression of the JBD is that it works in that second way, not the first.

2) I'm suspicious that the JBD claims to function over a very wide range of engines and tunes, not only the F30 328d, but also for the 2006+ BMW E90 320d, 330d, 335d and X5d. I can't see how the one box can be manufactured to work efficiently and safely for all of them. Mike, please explain. The German tuners have different boxes for each and every tune of each and every engine. It's all that extra engineering and testing that contributes to the price difference. I'm sorry, but you don't get something for nothing in this business.

3) How can the two boxes work similarly as you've stated when the schematics for the plug-and-play are so different? The German boxes hook directly up to the injectors, the exhaust temperature sensor, and the throttle pedal while yours plugs into ??? (couldn't tell from your installation instructions for the JBD).

Mike, let's start with those three issues.

Here's the letter from Hartge, and you can compare the JBD to his description.

Upgrades works simmular to the AC Schnitzer one. We got a bit more feature I guess

Our Hi-Tech system contains many "smart" technical features,
and is the result of many months of design, testing
and durability trials.

The investment we have made during the development program has resulted in a full 3 year warranty
on the hardware and software.

The Hartge ECU is an external additional control unit.

It is internally sealed and cannot be detected by BMW service procedure interrogations.

It is also not possible that BMW software updates can disturb the performance of the Hartge ECU.
Unlike engine management "chipping" and "flash" upgrades, it never gets overwritten during
service enhancements by BMW.

The Hartge ECU is connected via a special wiring harness to the injector, temperature sensor,
gas pedal signal (to be soldered) and power supplies, rest all plug and play.

Additional power is generated by increasing the injection timing by a precisely calculated number.
This number depending on engine speed, gas pedal angle (approx. 60% throttle to avoid diesel filter damages),
and calculated engine load and other parameters.
The BMW ECU continues to monitor all other important engine parameters as standard.

Therefore the engine behaves as standard to ensure that the standard emissions controls
remain intact for the standard emissions tests and drive cycle testing.

There is also overload protection, which prevents full power from being delivered for excessively long periods of time,
for example when towing heavy loads, or driving for too long at V-max.

The Hartge ECU also prevents overload of the transmission at lower than 1,200 rpm,
and overstressing the engine at high power outputs.

In extreme temperature conditions, the Hartge ECU also monitors the exhaust gas temperature,
and if this exceeds the safe limit, the Hartge ECU reduces power accordingly back
to standard BMW power.

All standard BMW engine protection and emissions systems remain in place and continue to function.

[stevehecht]

I hope Mike shows up sometime. I might be the only one on this thread, but I've found a couple of interesting quotes. The first is from endtuning.com, which is a flash tune company. Their description of how their ECU flash works to increase engine output is what the German tuning boxes do:

Remaps vs. Tuning Boxes

So what does a remap do differently? Well, for a start, it will be clear and honest with the ECU right from the start. For the average Diesel Remap, the fuel injection quantity is raised, but by telling the ECU to inject more, and the ECU will handle the rest. In most cases, it is holding the injector open for longer. The Rail Pressure may have modest increases which can help fuel vapourisation and economy, but the main method of increasing the Injection Quantity is with a collection of tables from 'driver's wish' to 'Torque Conversion' maps, which puts less stress on the expensive Injection Pump, and the Injectors. The Torque conversion map is used on more advance diesels which treat all the requests in Nm of torque, and then use Torque Conversion to look up how much diesel to be injected to reach the desired figure. Fine tuning can also be carried out on the Phase of Injection to keep Exhaust Gas Temperatures down, and Pre and Post Injection too.
The Turbo Boost pressure is often increased too, and this will provide more air (and oxygen) which will further allow greater Injection Quantities without becoming too rich and smoking. The torque limiters can be raised to monitored levels under full control of the tuner.
Finally of course, the Injected quantity is correct, and the MPG displayed is still accurate.

http://www.endtuning.com/dieseltuningboxes.html

Second, here is some feedback from a JBD user that I think is fair and accurate:

JBD is a solid cost effective solution that is easy to install/remove, but you get what you pay for - period. You can't compare a proper ECM remap that takes control over everything to a single rail pressure sensor controller. For me, JBD always left me with "wanting more" then the on/off switch feeling, not power wise, but the way the power is delivered.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=694258 post #19[/quote]

Now I'm not saying that a German tuning box is the same as an ECU flash--no way. But I am saying that the German tuners come a helluva lot closer to the flash than a simple box like the JBD. As that user said, it's not just about the raw numbers of increased hp or lb-ft. It has to do with "the way the power is delivered" for the driver and how that increased power output is produced under the hood, how it wears on vulnerable engine parts over years and thousands of miles.

And I'm not disagreeing that the JBD can be "a solid cost-effective solution," either. But all I'm saying is that "you get what you pay for"--you pay more for the German boxes and you get more, too.

Until proven wrong I am asserting that the JBD does not/cannot do the same quality job as the more expensive German piggybacks because they work differently.

[Ictus]

Great work dude!
Sellers do not really own the information. Otherwise there would be so many questions. As I have written before about the principle of expensive boxes at all identical. I would not be surprised if the program is embedded in the boxes written by one person.
About combining boxes, then there is a real experience of using 2 different types of boxes on the F10 530d. Kelleners box + DimSport Rapidbox(rail + boost sensors)
Racelogic results:
0-100 km / h - 6.06 sec (6.16 stock)
0-160 km / h - 13.21 seconds (15.21 Stock)

0-402 meters - 14.20 seconds (14.49 Stock)

Here is F30 320d with DimSport Rapid box + Snow Performance Methanol kit:

[PabloK]

Agree, this is a great post.

Looking forward to JBDs response as I have a 328d wagon on order.

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by PabloK

Looking forward to JBDs response as I have a 328d wagon on order.

Funny you should say that. Yesterday I jointed German********** a forum website devoted to, well,--you guessed it. I'm currently having a very enlightening and informative conversation with the man himself, Terry Burger (Mr. BMS). You can join the website too and look for the conversation in the BMW Diesel section of the "BMW Engine & Performance" forum. Back to some more research to show to Terry!

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Hi,

No offense intended but I'm the wrong person to ask about technical diesel box differences. I resell the tunes. I don't design them. You should direct any and all technical questions to BMS directly.

I can say I've personally sold a few hundred of the JBD boxes and in all those years I've only had one customer who wanted to return it and it was not due to the box performance itself. BMS has sold thousands. So there are a lot of them out there and many positive customer experiences posted. Some negative ones too I'm sure. Unlike the more expensive options where it's hard to find any info or feedback there should be no lack of feedback on the JBD.

On your quote regarding DME flashing I agree that technically speaking DME flashing has more to offer the diesel compared to the JBD. But remember the JBD is not intended to be the most powerful tune out there. It's not a JB4. It's more like a JB+ system. It's intended to be a simple to install and remove device that gives you a bulk of the tuning gains. It just so happens as far as the 335d goes the JBD produces dyno results and track times consistent with or better than the flash tunes. Most diesel owners go from a JBD to a flash tune if they want more than the JBD can offer. None of them go to these expensive piggyback systems you mention. At least I've never heard of anyone running one. The only other piggyback I've heard of is DTUK and it dyno tested the same as the JBD in a customer same car same day dyno test.

Mike

[stevehecht]

Mike,

I have just had a long conversation with Terry about the German high-end TBs in the past 24 hours, and he's been curious to find out more about how they're configuring their wiring looms. Read the conversation here: http://www.german**********/showthre...820#post530820. I've promised him a before/after dyno once I get my Kelleners Sport kit installed.

I don't want to get into a pissing match about all this. I'm not trying to put BMS products down in any way. I'm just trying to show that there are other decent brands out there, and, although they cost more, definitely have something to offer to those willing to pay the freight.

I'm sure that these German brands have also sold thousands of their boxes--just not much in the States--or they wouldn't still be in business. I find it very hard to believe that all the thousands of European, Asian/Aussie/NZ, and Latin American motorheads buying these piggybacks are a bunch of naive idiots going around spending big bucks on equipment not worth the money. All these tuners have been around for a lot longer than BMS and have maintained excellent reputations both worldwide and in the racing world for decades. Kelleners Sport was founded by two very well-known race pros. These companies are not marketing fluff.

FYI, AC Schnitzer has initiated a major American marketing push this past spring, so you might be hearing more about them in the coming months.