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      08-19-2013, 09:02 AM   #1
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Break in

So what's the consensus here on break in procedures? I've read both sides - take it easy vs hard break in to better seal rings early on. What say you and why?
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      08-19-2013, 09:43 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by dhirm5 View Post
So what's the consensus here on break in procedures? I've read both sides - take it easy vs hard break in to better seal rings early on. What say you and why?
Ring seals have zero to do with break-in on these cars today. BMW says you can have "noises", etc. from the rear diff, trans, etc. The car also runs adaptations for approx. 200-300 miles of initial driving. You should drive the car int eh manner you would normally drive so that your will set the adaptations accordingly. I do NOT know if this is set from new (I suspect it is) or after the 1200 mi svc. We reset mine fully after the 1200 mi svc just in case.
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      08-19-2013, 10:58 AM   #3
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I reccomend driving it very hard for the first 20 miles after that comply with Break-In procedures.
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      08-19-2013, 12:00 PM   #4
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Just speaking from experience, I believe that now days engine has more accuracy that might not need such breakin process, lot of my friends did the same... Kick down the pedal straightaway after the first pick up
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      08-19-2013, 12:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
I reccomend driving it very hard for the first 20 miles after that comply with Break-In procedures.
Dave, if adaptations are setting for 200-300 miles (which they do) you will basically negate those 1st 20 miles if you revert to non-typical driving for the remainder of adaptation. During adaptation you should drive the way you drive, using bot S and D modes.
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      08-19-2013, 02:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Ring seals have zero to do with break-in on these cars today. BMW says you can have "noises", etc. from the rear diff, trans, etc. The car also runs adaptations for approx. 200-300 miles of initial driving. You should drive the car int eh manner you would normally drive so that your will set the adaptations accordingly. I do NOT know if this is set from new (I suspect it is) or after the 1200 mi svc. We reset mine fully after the 1200 mi svc just in case.
I'm sorry but you are dead wrong on this. The whole point of breaking in a modern engine is to create a uniform seal of the piston ring to the combustion chamber wall. If this does not occur you will have blow by for the rest of your engines days thus losing compression , power, and requiring huge amounts of oil every 1000 miles. Will you notice losing 10hp on a 600 hp motor no, but it will happen . What people do notice and whine incessantly about is adding oil every few hundred miles. What Rpi dave is referring to is that 90% of the ring break in occurs during the first 20 miles of a new motors life. BMW is rec of varying rpms is to do just this, the best way to seat the ring is high throttle use followed by engine braking up and down the rpm range. Going to redline isn't as important as the cylinder seeing full pressure . For instance the GTR motor is a good example to prove my point. It even more of a "modern motor than the S63 Tu complete with plasma lined cylinders. It also is TT and sees both high compression , high boost with high rpm's. Nissan takes these motors and does a specific bench brake in procedure where they take the motor to redline and then let it engine brake repeatedly for ten minutes to ensure a good ring seal. then they put it in the GTR with a strict no redline break in for the other components. Since BMW does not do this for our motors I'm going to do it myself right after i reach full operating temp off the lot. Your only shot at not having huge oil consumption with this motor really. (Unless the guy unloading your car at port does this for you) lol. Unfortunately Iv'e seen too many of those videos .
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      08-19-2013, 02:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
Dave, if adaptations are setting for 200-300 miles (which they do) you will basically negate those 1st 20 miles if you revert to non-typical driving for the remainder of adaptation. During adaptation you should drive the way you drive, using bot S and D modes.
The adaptations you refer to are short and long term fuel trims,and transmission algorithm based off of you're driving style. These will change over the life of your car depending on how you drive. some adaptations such as the TCU for an DCT for instance may need to be redone after sufficient parts wear , i.e clutch surface , has taken place. You're car is always attempting to reach a certain target AFR these adaptations are how the car does this in varying climates , temps, driving styles while optimizing the emission status. When you add a significant amount of aftermarket parts , i.e. a new down pipe , the car must relearn how much fuel it needs to add to achieve its target AFR. Thus you initially don't make maximum power. In some older "slow ecu's" like the MS54 it was beneficial to reset adaptations during these times. With an ECU as powerful as in the Siemens in the S63Tu thats just not necessary. It can literally make millions of computations per second and within as little as full tank of gas will adapt to whatever you have thrown at it.
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      08-19-2013, 02:20 PM   #8
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So, Pkilla has helped break in our cars... we should be thanking him..
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      08-19-2013, 02:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nynd
So, Pkilla has helped break in our cars... we should be thanking him..
I don't think he warmed them up first but in a way yes lol .
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      08-19-2013, 02:44 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I'm sorry but you are dead wrong on this. The whole point of breaking in a modern engine is to create a uniform seal of the piston ring to the combustion chamber wall. If this does not occur you will have blow by for the rest of your engines days thus losing compression , power, and requiring huge amounts of oil every 1000 miles. Will you notice losing 10hp on a 600 hp motor no, but it will happen . What people do notice and whine incessantly about is adding oil every few hundred miles. What Rpi dave is referring to is that 90% of the ring break in occurs during the first 20 miles of a new motors life. BMW is rec of varying rpms is to do just this, the best way to seat the ring is high throttle use followed by engine braking up and down the rpm range. Going to redline isn't as important as the cylinder seeing full pressure . For instance the GTR motor is a good example to prove my point. It even more of a "modern motor than the S63 Tu complete with plasma lined cylinders. It also is TT and sees both high compression , high boost with high rpm's. Nissan takes these motors and does a specific bench brake in procedure where they take the motor to redline and then let it engine brake repeatedly for ten minutes to ensure a good ring seal. then they put it in the GTR with a strict no redline break in for the other components. Since BMW does not do this for our motors I'm going to do it myself right after i reach full operating temp off the lot. Your only shot at not having huge oil consumption with this motor really. (Unless the guy unloading your car at port does this for you) lol. Unfortunately Iv'e seen too many of those videos .
So what would you recommend as the ceiling for RPMs in the first 20 miles?
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      08-19-2013, 02:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I'm sorry but you are dead wrong on this. The whole point of breaking in a modern engine is to create a uniform seal of the piston ring to the combustion chamber wall. If this does not occur you will have blow by for the rest of your engines days thus losing compression , power, and requiring huge amounts of oil every 1000 miles. Will you notice losing 10hp on a 600 hp motor no, but it will happen . What people do notice and whine incessantly about is adding oil every few hundred miles. What Rpi dave is referring to is that 90% of the ring break in occurs during the first 20 miles of a new motors life. BMW is rec of varying rpms is to do just this, the best way to seat the ring is high throttle use followed by engine braking up and down the rpm range. Going to redline isn't as important as the cylinder seeing full pressure . For instance the GTR motor is a good example to prove my point. It even more of a "modern motor than the S63 Tu complete with plasma lined cylinders. It also is TT and sees both high compression , high boost with high rpm's. Nissan takes these motors and does a specific bench brake in procedure where they take the motor to redline and then let it engine brake repeatedly for ten minutes to ensure a good ring seal. then they put it in the GTR with a strict no redline break in for the other components. Since BMW does not do this for our motors I'm going to do it myself right after i reach full operating temp off the lot. Your only shot at not having huge oil consumption with this motor really. (Unless the guy unloading your car at port does this for you) lol. Unfortunately Iv'e seen too many of those videos .
First off, thanks for your two posts... about the best consolidated explanation I have seen on here.

A couple questions:

1) Are you sure that BMW doesn't do a bench break in for the seals? This would seem to be optimal for their warranty purposes, but obviously would be costly.

2) Every one says "run the engine hard through the RPM range for first 20 miles, under full pressure." What exactly does this mean? Can this be done while staying under 4500 RPM? If I dont need to redline it, was is a better theoretical max RPM for this first 20 mile break-in?

3) Diong this hard break-in seems to me to warrant an oil change soon afterward. What if I held off from doing the oil change till 1000 miles?

I really want to break my engine in right... but I will be on a tight timetable, in foriegn countries, with guests. However, I dont want to look back over the course of the next 2-4 years wishing I had taken the 20 minutes to break it in correctly because the car now has blow by and burns oil. I pickup from the welt at 0910 in the morning... I can have the break in done and in for a quick oil change by noon if need be (anyone recommend a location in Munich to do it?)

Thoughts?
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      08-19-2013, 04:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-1 Pilot View Post
First off, thanks for your two posts... about the best consolidated explanation I have seen on here.

A couple questions:

1) Are you sure that BMW doesn't do a bench break in for the seals? This would seem to be optimal for their warranty purposes, but obviously would be costly.

2) Every one says "run the engine hard through the RPM range for first 20 miles, under full pressure." What exactly does this mean? Can this be done while staying under 4500 RPM? If I dont need to redline it, was is a better theoretical max RPM for this first 20 mile break-in?

3) Diong this hard break-in seems to me to warrant an oil change soon afterward. What if I held off from doing the oil change till 1000 miles?

I really want to break my engine in right... but I will be on a tight timetable, in foriegn countries, with guests. However, I dont want to look back over the course of the next 2-4 years wishing I had taken the 20 minutes to break it in correctly because the car now has blow by and burns oil. I pickup from the welt at 0910 in the morning... I can have the break in done and in for a quick oil change by noon if need be (anyone recommend a location in Munich to do it?)

Thoughts?
1.) Yes I am certain they do not. Warranty of what? The only consequence of blow-by is increased oil consumption and slight power loss. One is unnoticeable on such a strong car and the other is considered "normal" by BMW.
2.) It means at varied rpms up and down the rev range , is 7200 rpm necessary no but not going over 4500 rpm is babying it too much IMHO. In general going to the torque peak of the motor should be adequate so around 5- 5500 rpm max which is what BMW rec by the way. The key is full throttle then allowing the car to engine brake back down the rev range .
3.) this is where modern engines and oils do come in to play. In old hand built motors with regular oil people would change the oil right at 20 miles after the initial break in run and the oil would have so much metal in it it would be sparkly. In a modern mass production BMW motor this is not the case . there will be break in metal , some Blackstone reports have shown this to be true still at 4k miles but changing the synthetic oil and filter at 1200 miles should be fine. I would rec changing it again before 5k miles based off other members oil reports.
4.) If you are in Munich thats perfect the hilly bavarian countryside is ideal , the constant hills will put great load on the engine! Just spend 20 miles on the autobahn accelerating and engine braking and whala youve done it!Don't beat on the car , keep the rpms varied (for gods sake don't use cruise control) and enjoy your trip! they will change the oil when your car arrives in the US.
George
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      08-19-2013, 05:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I'm sorry but you are dead wrong on this. The whole point of breaking in a modern engine is to create a uniform seal of the piston ring to the combustion chamber wall. If this does not occur you will have blow by for the rest of your engines days thus losing compression , power, and requiring huge amounts of oil every 1000 miles. Will you notice losing 10hp on a 600 hp motor no, but it will happen . What people do notice and whine incessantly about is adding oil every few hundred miles. What Rpi dave is referring to is that 90% of the ring break in occurs during the first 20 miles of a new motors life. BMW is rec of varying rpms is to do just this, the best way to seat the ring is high throttle use followed by engine braking up and down the rpm range. Going to redline isn't as important as the cylinder seeing full pressure . For instance the GTR motor is a good example to prove my point. It even more of a "modern motor than the S63 Tu complete with plasma lined cylinders. It also is TT and sees both high compression , high boost with high rpm's. Nissan takes these motors and does a specific bench brake in procedure where they take the motor to redline and then let it engine brake repeatedly for ten minutes to ensure a good ring seal. then they put it in the GTR with a strict no redline break in for the other components. Since BMW does not do this for our motors I'm going to do it myself right after i reach full operating temp off the lot. Your only shot at not having huge oil consumption with this motor really. (Unless the guy unloading your car at port does this for you) lol. Unfortunately Iv'e seen too many of those videos .
Considering that you are talking MILES above my comprehension range then I must stand corrected.

Thanks for that through explanation AND the further explanations below. EXTREMELY helpful and will keep them in mind with my new M6.

****THIS SHOULD BE MADE A STICKY POST*******
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      08-19-2013, 05:17 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by nynd View Post
So, Pkilla has helped break in our cars... we should be thanking him..
That was my understanding before reading gmd2003s response!
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      08-19-2013, 05:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
I'm sorry but you are dead wrong on this. The whole point of breaking in a modern engine is to create a uniform seal of the piston ring to the combustion chamber wall. If this does not occur you will have blow by for the rest of your engines days thus losing compression , power, and requiring huge amounts of oil every 1000 miles. Will you notice losing 10hp on a 600 hp motor no, but it will happen . What people do notice and whine incessantly about is adding oil every few hundred miles. What Rpi dave is referring to is that 90% of the ring break in occurs during the first 20 miles of a new motors life. BMW is rec of varying rpms is to do just this, the best way to seat the ring is high throttle use followed by engine braking up and down the rpm range. Going to redline isn't as important as the cylinder seeing full pressure . For instance the GTR motor is a good example to prove my point. It even more of a "modern motor than the S63 Tu complete with plasma lined cylinders. It also is TT and sees both high compression , high boost with high rpm's. Nissan takes these motors and does a specific bench brake in procedure where they take the motor to redline and then let it engine brake repeatedly for ten minutes to ensure a good ring seal. then they put it in the GTR with a strict no redline break in for the other components. Since BMW does not do this for our motors I'm going to do it myself right after i reach full operating temp off the lot. Your only shot at not having huge oil consumption with this motor really. (Unless the guy unloading your car at port does this for you) lol. Unfortunately Iv'e seen too many of those videos .
So, to clarify-hard drive it for 20 miles, reaching max boost and allowing the engine to break down the RPM range. Then how about the remainder of the 1,200 recommended miles? How should it be driven?

Side note: The person who buys the 2014 M6 Coupe I took home for a night can rest assured that those rings are seated!
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      08-19-2013, 05:44 PM   #16
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http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

^^^ This.
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      08-19-2013, 06:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
As much as that may be true, the geocities style webpage and lack of some specifics scared me off trying to attempt to follow this.

Gmd2003's explanations made me understand the procedure and feel better about what I would be doing with my expensive car.

I'll be changing the oil at 1000 miles prior to taking it on the 'ring.
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      08-19-2013, 06:17 PM   #18
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Guys,

I'm glad that this topic has been brought up. Breaking in your engine properly is important. How do I know? Because I broke my engine in exactly to BMW's specifications to the letter and I now have "Engine Oil Blow By" on my F10 M5. I have not put this out before but I am putting this out now because I think I have found a solution for it and so far it is working. When I did European Delivery last year in Munich, I did not thrash my new M5 at all. I was very careful with it, never broke 5,000rpm and I also never drove over 105mph. As most of you know I drove 2,051 miles on European Delivery mostly cruising at highway speeds and driving moderately. I didn't hit redline until I got to the Nurburgring.

Since the time I've had my M5 back from European Delivery I have had to fill it with oil about 6 times and I've now done 4 oil changes in total. I now have about 19,000miles on the clock. I thought the oil consumption rate was a little high but thought nothing of it.

When I installed Catless downpipes I found out something new about my M5. It was now making blue-grayish smoke whenever I let off of the throttle. I had no idea what this smoke was or why my M5 was making it. The smoke only occurs while driving and I let off of the throttle sometimes. I have even captured the smoke on video once while my M5 was on a dyno machine.

It wasn't until I went to the last Targa Trophy event that I learned that the smoke coming out of my exhaust was being caused by oil blow by. The way I found out was because my friend's buddy, who also happens to be an engineer for Tesla (of all companies) immediately recognized the smoke coming out of my exhaust when he was riding in my friend's E60 M5 behind me. He told me it was oil blow by. I asked what oil blow by was and he explained it to me.

Here's what it is, taken from a different Forum.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blow by in layman's terms

Basically, blow by means that oil is escaping past the pistons and pushing compressed air into the lower part of the engine where the oil pools. This oil then is pushed up the dipstick tube and if you remove the dipstick when engine is running, oil will spurt out of there like a volcano. (you can have varying levels on the richter scale, from a few drops or spurts, to a full on symphony of black oil juice spewing out like it's the 4th of july.)

What this means

I think what it means is that the engine will need to be replaced eventually. Dealers say you need a new long block when they encounter this.

Some mechanics won't even touch it, try to repair it, and they won't even do a compression leak down test to test for cylinder compression because it's a waste of money. (unless they want to just take your money)

And yet some people say just keep on trucking until it dies. Probably wise to have AAA plus RV. You can start a search for a good used engine at a reasonable price, to have one lined up for when the time comes.


The Result

You have a vehicle with a currently running engine. It may run totally fine as far as you can tell. You might go 100k miles, or maybe 10k miles, or maybe 10 hours. But, it's basically one of those things you just run it down the road as long as you can, increase oil change intervals, and hope for the best. Oil consumption is a concern, so keep an eye on fluid levels. Thinner viscosity oil is better.

One mechanic I asked said they have customers with large amounts of dipstick blowby who have been running like that for 100k miles or more.


Interesting note

I have not encountered anyone yet, who had to replace the engine because of blowby! What gives??
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I took a real educated guess and guessed that because I removed my cats I was now about to see the smoke cause by engine oil blow by, which in turn was originally caused by the fact that I took it too easy on the engine in the very early stages of its life. I'm pretty certain that with the cats still in there I would have never known about this and I also think based on my research that most people who own F10 M5's that have engines which consume more oil than not, also have blow by, but do not get smoke because their cats are still installed.



Attached is also something that I have researched as to how it can be addressed.

-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
So what solution did I ultiimately find?

This.

http://certechgels.com/

http://certechgels.com/products/
-------------------------------------
-------------------------------------

I have bought the Certech Gel product and have already installed it in my engine and have been running it for the past 600 miles. So far so good. I haven't seen any more smoke yet, but I will be keeping an eye out for it in the future. Usually I check by asking people who drive behind me if they see smoke.

Additionally, as someone who has had to replace an entire S85 V10 engine in their E60 M5 because it failed, I seriously wonder if it would have ever failed if I had put the Certech Gel in it.

Like I said, if your engine in your M5 is consuming oil, I'd be willing to bet large sums of money that it was because the Break-In Period on your M5 did not happen as well as it could have and you now have oil blow by. Think about it.

All I know is the next time I buy a new high performance car or motorcycle I am going to drive it hard for the first 20 miles or so.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
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      08-19-2013, 06:34 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
This ia all great info Dave. Thanks. The only question I am left with now is that this guy says to NOT use Synthetic Oil until 1,500 miles. So knowing what you or gmd2003 knows, would you IMMEDIATELY have them drain the synthetic upon delivery and in that case, what oil would you run? Frankly, I am just sort of asking to ask. I will not likely drain the synthetic. I have not adhered to break-in on either my F10 or F12 M cars. I guess it is a good thing. I still don't have the answer to my question "what about from mile 21-1200?".
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      08-19-2013, 06:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPiM5 View Post
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm" rel="" target="_blank">http://<a href="http://www.mototuneu...ecrets.htm</a>

^^^ This.
This ia all great info Dave. Thanks. The only question I am left with now is that this guy says to NOT use Synthetic Oil until 1,500 miles. So knowing what you or gmd2003 knows, would you IMMEDIATELY have them drain the synthetic upon delivery and in that case, what oil would you run? Frankly, I am just sort of asking to ask. I will not likely drain the synthetic. I have not adhered to break-in on either my F10 or F12 M cars. I guess it is a good thing. I still don't have the answer to my question "what about from mile 21-1200?".
The stock oil is fine , our motors don't need less lubricity to break in
like a high strung, built old school bike motor . I would not rec using a non synthetic oil . Going by people's oil analysis our motors continue to break in at least up to 4-5 k miles . I would certainly continue to vary RPM's and engine break whenever possible at least until 1200 miles . And just bc you get a break in service at 1200 doesn't manically make a motor fully broken in . It's not time to do 7 consecutive launch controls lol.
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      08-19-2013, 06:54 PM   #21
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Both great questions, Coldlist.

On BMW bikes, they specifically come with dino oil, and you don't switch to synthetic till you have at least 6600 miles on them. This is because Dino oil is better for properly seating rings, etc. Does this breakin work with synthetic?

I too wonder what to do from mile 21-1200... Right now it will be varying rpms up to 5k and no going over 105mph.

Additional thoughts-- Will doing the break-in as described void warranty? Will the car flag this break-in in any way? Would you do anything different if it were a lease vs a purchase or would is push you to lease vs buy (I haven't decided and could go either way at the moment).
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      08-19-2013, 06:56 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdList View Post
This ia all great info Dave. Thanks. The only question I am left with now is that this guy says to NOT use Synthetic Oil until 1,500 miles. So knowing what you or gmd2003 knows, would you IMMEDIATELY have them drain the synthetic upon delivery and in that case, what oil would you run? Frankly, I am just sort of asking to ask. I will not likely drain the synthetic. I have not adhered to break-in on either my F10 or F12 M cars. I guess it is a good thing. I still don't have the answer to my question "what about from mile 21-1200?".
For the 21-1200 miles. Just drive the car normally as you would as if it was already broken in. Like the other guy said, don't do 7 consecutive launch controls because there are still components on the M5 that still need time to break in a little bit like the transmission and the differential, but no need to baby it either. Get the servicing done at 1,200 miles and continue to drive it as you have been for the past 1179 miles. I would do an earlier oil change than the 10,000 miles that dealership would set, as well.

Again this is all just my opinion based off of my actual experience. Having oil blow by on an engine is not something we should be worrying about.

Also consider this as the reason as to why BMW or any other manufacturer wants us to follow their Break-In procedures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

You guys honestly don't think that if BMW wanted to build a S85 V10 Engine that would last until 500,000 miles that they could do it? Instead look at what's happening today. Just the other day another one of my friends V10 failed on him, whole new engine replacement needed. So far I've personally known at least 15 people who needed new S85 V10's not including mine. Think about it.
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