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      08-08-2013, 07:59 PM   #1
Protious
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BMS Tune - N63 Stage 1

Has anyone tried this? Looks pretty interesting, but it appears Terry hasn't sold a lot of these to the F10 M5 folk. Single map at the moment, looks like it increases boost by 2.25 PSI.

http://www.burgertuning.com/N63_Jb_B...nce_Tuner.html

With that said, I have a feeling we could get more then 25 HP / 40 Torque - considering those dyno sheets are from a 750i.
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      08-08-2013, 08:24 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protious View Post
Has anyone tried this? Looks pretty interesting, but it appears Terry hasn't sold a lot of these to the F10 M5 folk. Single map at the moment, looks like it increases boost by 2.25 PSI.

http://www.burgertuning.com/N63_Jb_B...nce_Tuner.html

With that said, I have a feeling we could get more then 25 HP / 40 Torque - considering those dyno sheets are from a 750i.
Was considering it. I have been working offline with a gentleman who has it installed on a M6. He is running it with Map 1 (as you said, +2.25) and Terry has been reviewing the data logs. I also wrote Terry, and he said that even though the piggyback is adjustable, he wouldn't go more than +1 PSI, and the data logs would need to be reviewed.

I have also read that the switzer piggyback is running between +5/6 PSI. I do not have solid "apples to apples" data on that, but I have seen the burger data logs (taken from the TMAP sensor, directly from the piggyback module) and data provided by a Switzer owner (off of a P3car gauge) and that looks to be about right.
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      08-08-2013, 08:40 PM   #3
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From the looks of it, we'll need some sort of "black box" (manhart, switzer) in order to get more boost. Does the +5/6 PSI include Switzer's "Engine Control Module", or is that just from the tune?
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      08-08-2013, 08:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protious View Post
From the looks of it, we'll need some sort of "black box" (manhart, switzer) in order to get more boost. Does the +5/6 PSI include Switzer's "Engine Control Module", or is that just from the tune?
Switzer's piggy back or "Engine Control Module" is what "fools" the DME to provide more boost. It is the "tune" and is what adds the +5 or 6 PSI.

The BMS tune is similar, along with Hartge. I have not seen the Manhart boost box but I'd assume it is similar as well. Could be wrong though. I have not seen any OBDII data from a car with the Hartge piggyback or the Manhart boxes - plus, the Manhart boost boxes are only on their upper stage for the M5. So, you are adding that on top of the OBDII flash.
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      08-08-2013, 10:36 PM   #5
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I think out of all the tunes then, this might be the best choice for the price then. It's not like the tuner detection codes is going to matter at this point, considering all other systems involve something similar (piggyback), or a ECU flash (super obvious).

Looking at the price, this unit may eventually sell enough for a Stage II (around ~250 units), which might actually have multiple maps ... seems like the more viable option in the long-run. Best part is, it's essentially a plug and play, we don't even have to splice wires.
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      08-09-2013, 11:50 PM   #6
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FWIW I've had a JB4 piggyback on my 135i for 3.5 years now. It's been pretty solid. Frequent updates and great support from Terry whenever you need it.
I'm tempted to try this on the M5. Run some logs and send them to Terry for good measure, and receive a clean bill of health before romping on it.

He said near 40hp give or take depending on conditions, and should be fine with other mods like downpipes. Also mentioned he had not heard of any codes being thrown.

I was thinking:
-BMS tune and Can Bus Cable to clear codes: 25 to 40whp $500
- AMS Down Pipes (Catless) 30 to 40whp $1800
- K&N drop ins -5whp lol $100
So for under $2500 you've got an extra 60 to 80 or so HP. If stock cars are making over 600 crank hp, this should nudge you close to the 700 mark. Not bad...
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      08-10-2013, 05:48 AM   #7
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I have one including the USB cable not fitted it yet. 2.25 psi seemed a bit tame so was going to do some runs @ 2.25 then up it to 4 psi and do some more to see how it performs.

Not sure I want an extra 6psi until I do a bit of playing.
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      08-10-2013, 07:40 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5 TT View Post
I have one including the USB cable not fitted it yet. 2.25 psi seemed a bit tame so was going to do some runs @ 2.25 then up it to 4 psi and do some more to see how it performs.

Not sure I want an extra 6psi until I do a bit of playing.
Def keep us posted!!
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      08-11-2013, 09:49 AM   #9
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I have it on my M5, Like M5 TT said 2.225 is a bit tame for the s63tu. So I have it at plus 3.00 boost over stock. I will do a full review with dyno etc sometime midweek, But this thing def works great so far
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      08-11-2013, 06:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timberwolf View Post
FWIW I've had a JB4 piggyback on my 135i for 3.5 years now. It's been pretty solid. Frequent updates and great support from Terry whenever you need it.
I'm tempted to try this on the M5. Run some logs and send them to Terry for good measure, and receive a clean bill of health before romping on it.

He said near 40hp give or take depending on conditions, and should be fine with other mods like downpipes. Also mentioned he had not heard of any codes being thrown.

I was thinking:
-BMS tune and Can Bus Cable to clear codes: 25 to 40whp $500
- AMS Down Pipes (Catless) 30 to 40whp $1800
- K&N drop ins -5whp lol $100
So for under $2500 you've got an extra 60 to 80 or so HP. If stock cars are making over 600 crank hp, this should nudge you close to the 700 mark. Not bad...
Same thing I am thinking, but doing AMS catted (for noise limits on various CA tracks) and BMC filters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmanny View Post
I have it on my M5, Like M5 TT said 2.225 is a bit tame for the s63tu. So I have it at plus 3.00 boost over stock. I will do a full review with dyno etc sometime midweek, But this thing def works great so far
Right on. So no issues at +3! Good stuff. I am assuming that Terry has looked at your data logs?
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      08-11-2013, 07:13 PM   #11
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Guys I can't believe people are being so cavalier about tricking the ECU to run more boost on the S63tu. It already runs at 22psi vs 17in the S63 with a 10.1 vs 9.1 compression ratio. BMW obviously tuned the S63tu to make similar power as the S63 with less fuel consumption . Until the ECU is cracked all these piggyback solutions are adding is tons of extra heat , with a little power for maybe 1-2 pulls . This is best case as in the Manhart stage 4 as it also has an ECU tune . To just up the boost without changing the ECU by more than maybe 1 psi could be disastrous and will be minimally effective. Be patient real tunes will come . But running a setup not even designed for the S63tu is just stupid .
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      08-11-2013, 08:03 PM   #12
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Is it confirmed that our cars run up to 22 PSI stock? I've got a P3/Turner gauge and the most boost I've ever seen is 17.4 PSI.

Just curious if I what I am seeing is normal or my boost (or gauge) is off...

Sorry to get a bit off topic.
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      08-11-2013, 09:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
Guys I can't believe people are being so cavalier about tricking the ECU to run more boost on the S63tu. It already runs at 22psi vs 17in the S63 with a 10.1 vs 9.1 compression ratio. BMW obviously tuned the S63tu to make similar power as the S63 with less fuel consumption . Until the ECU is cracked all these piggyback solutions are adding is tons of extra heat , with a little power for maybe 1-2 pulls . This is best case as in the Manhart stage 4 as it also has an ECU tune . To just up the boost without changing the ECU by more than maybe 1 psi could be disastrous and will be minimally effective. Be patient real tunes will come . But running a setup not even designed for the S63tu is just stupid .
You are talking about peak boost #'s but that peak boost tapers down as the RPMs rise. I would be interested in seeing what the boost #'s are at redline.
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      08-11-2013, 09:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmkhum
Is it confirmed that our cars run up to 22 PSI stock? I've got a P3/Turner gauge and the most boost I've ever seen is 17.4 PSI.

Just curious if I what I am seeing is normal or my boost (or gauge) is off...

Sorry to get a bit off topic.
This is cut and pasted from a BMW press release comparing the S63TU to the S63. TU is on the left. It runs 1.5 bar , that's 22 psi max boost , the S63 in the X5m runs 1.2 approx 17.4 psi max . Both motors taper boost significantly toward redline with the S63Tu holding it much longer. I think this illustrates my point well that the M5/6 don't need more boost, they need more fuel and timing, and adding more boost onto the stock ECU is a poor choice. No tuner would choose a piggyback over a reflash if the ECU were cracked period.




S63Tü (F10 M5)* S63 (X5/6 M)
Engine
Configuration/No of cyls/valves V / 8 / 4 V / 8 / 4
Engine technology M TwinPower Turbo technology with cross-bank exhaust manifold, twin-scroll turbocharging, direct petrol injection, (High Precision Injection), VALVETRONIC and Double-Vanos M TwinPower Turbo with exhaust gas manifold connecting both rows of cylinders. Twin Scroll Twin Turbo technology. High Precision Injection. double-VANOS
Effective capacity 4395 ccm 4395 ccm
Bore 88.3 mm 88.3 mm
Stroke 89.0 mm 89.0 mm
Compression ratio 10.0:1 9.3:1
Maximum Boost Pressure (absolute) 1.5 bar 1.2 bar
Output 560hp 555hp
@ 5,750 – 7,000 rpm 6,000 rpm
Torque 501 lb-ft 501 lb-ft
@ 1,500 – 5,750 rpm 1,500 – 5,650 rpm
Redline 7,200rpm 7,000rpm
* Tü is German and stands for 'Technische Überholung' which translates to 'technical revision'
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      08-11-2013, 10:02 PM   #15
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Hmm...OK, well I'll make a couple more runs and see what the peak boost is. Does anyone else have a boost gauge?

It may be nothing, but it does seem a little odd that the peak boost I've seen has been 1.2 bar...which matches up with the quoted peak boost of the X5M/X6M.

Thanks,
Tom
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      08-11-2013, 10:23 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmkhum View Post
Hmm...OK, well I'll make a couple more runs and see what the peak boost is. Does anyone else have a boost gauge?

It may be nothing, but it does seem a little odd that the peak boost I've seen has been 1.2 bar...which matches up with the quoted peak boost of the X5M/X6M.

Thanks,
Tom
I'm getting mine on Wednesday / Thursday, I'm pretty interested in what my boost is as well.
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      08-11-2013, 10:28 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmkhum
Is it confirmed that our cars run up to 22 PSI stock? I've got a P3/Turner gauge and the most boost I've ever seen is 17.4 PSI.

Just curious if I what I am seeing is normal or my boost (or gauge) is off...

Sorry to get a bit off topic.
I have the vent gauge and I've seen similar results ~17.
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      08-11-2013, 10:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob///M5 View Post
I have the vent gauge and I've seen similar results ~17.
Seems like the same results as this thread.. http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=p3cars
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      08-12-2013, 05:35 AM   #19
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But is it not the case the ecu will give up to1.5 bar of boost to achieve 560bhp?

At sea level 1.2 bar of boost is enough for 560. Drive into the mountains where air is thinner 1.2 bar of boost won't be enough or in very hot humid countries again 1.2 bar won't be enough to make 560 so the ecu will give more boost to attain the required amount of torque

Is there an obd reader I can buy that will log boost I will see what mine is doing? I am sure there is just not looked into it yet
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      08-12-2013, 05:55 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob///M5
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmkhum
Is it confirmed that our cars run up to 22 PSI stock? I've got a P3/Turner gauge and the most boost I've ever seen is 17.4 PSI.

Just curious if I what I am seeing is normal or my boost (or gauge) is off...

Sorry to get a bit off topic.
I have the vent gauge and I've seen similar results ~17.
No offense to guys with the P3 gauges but they have been pretty inaccurate. Several people with them in supercharged Z4M's have not gotten accurate boost readings . BMW technical documents are not incorrect , there is also a video with the head of M engineering discussing the S63TU in which he describes the differences between the S63TU and S63 . And it's pretty clear that very few cars are making only 560 HP. The main reason it's running a higher boost is efficiency not power though . If you change the tune then obviously a lot of power can be had without upping boost.
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      08-12-2013, 10:01 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmd2003 View Post
No offense to guys with the P3 gauges but they have been pretty inaccurate. Several people with them in supercharged Z4M's have not gotten accurate boost readings . BMW technical documents are not incorrect , there is also a video with the head of M engineering discussing the S63TU in which he describes the differences between the S63TU and S63 . And it's pretty clear that very few cars are making only 560 HP. The main reason it's running a higher boost is efficiency not power though . If you change the tune then obviously a lot of power can be had without upping boost.
Seems a bit weird, that would mean the ODB port is reporting incorrect information? From my understanding, other implementations (such as the wireless one that you use apps on your smartphone to see), work the same way?
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      08-12-2013, 01:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Protious View Post
Seems a bit weird, that would mean the ODB port is reporting incorrect information? From my understanding, other implementations (such as the wireless one that you use apps on your smartphone to see), work the same way?
I agree it is odd, and admit the problem with the P3 gauge boost readings on the Z4M was the included Boost monitoring tap. It should be able to get good sampling data from the ECU from the OBD on a car that is monitoring it live but it may be a problem with the sampling rate.
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