[GS833]

I posted this on the Auto-X section but didn't get much attention
Just trying to see what you guys have noticed works well on a track and on a tighter solo course; DTC on full, DSC or all off.

Thanks,

[Josh49]

Originally Posted by GS833

I posted this on the Auto-X section but didn't get much attention
Just trying to see what you guys have noticed works well on a track and on a tighter solo course; DTC on full, DSC or all off.

Thanks,

Turn it all off. Period.

I can explain later if you want.. Too lazy right now..

[E90Fleet]

Depends on your experience level

[Josh49]

Really though, until I turned it all off, it was a mess.. Once I turned it all off, it made much more sense, behaved much more how I wanted it to, etc. And I got much much faster.

Try some with it on and then turn it all off. The difference is night and day..

Sorry, I didn't clarify, what I am saying was for autocross only..

Track might be different.. I'll report back hopefully soon..

[choatie88]

Everything on can be helpful since it really punishes you for not being smooth... and as we all know smoothness = quickness. As a novice I'd try just DTC on, it'll still save you from yourself but it'll let you push the limits some.

Just know that if you turn everything off in the 335i you'll be susceptible to power-on oversteer in addition to lift-off oversteer. Be gentle with the gas exiting a turn or you'll be in for a nasty surprise!

[Josh49]

Originally Posted by choatie88

Everything on can be helpful since it really punishes you for not being smooth... and as we all know smoothness = quickness. As a novice I'd try just DTC on, it'll still save you from yourself but it'll let you push the limits some.

Just know that if you turn everything off in the 335i you'll be susceptible to power-on oversteer in addition to lift-off oversteer. Be gentle with the gas exiting a turn or you'll be in for a nasty surprise!

Yep. Definitly with the 335.

But you learn from these mistakes. I think with it all off, you'll learn how to drive the car, rather than have the computer drive your car with your suggestions..

Depends on a lot of factors though. Personally, if I were going to the track with a 335i for the first time, I would turn off everything, start slow, and slowly add speed. Learn how to drive it without computer assistance..

In regards to what you say above, you shouldn't be adding that much power coming out of a corner until you are ready for that type of power and know the effects of it. But yeah, that 335 I'm sure can spin nicely.. :thumsup

DISCLAIMER: I am not an expert. This is just my $0.02

[The Cleaner]

Leave it on, you will be faster and learn to drive the car as designed. I dont see a single advantage to turning off the systems.

[GS833]

Thanks for the (mixed) opinions. I consider myself to have a lot of track and autocross experience, just not on the 335 or any rear wheel drive car for that matter. I've been running both type of events for years now with AWD cars; first with a 325IX and the last couple of years with an STI. Just wanted to have some ideas of what you guys were seeing/feeling out there before I took the car out.
Thanks guys!

[Josh49]

Yep - AWD is nice in this sense. Coming out of the corners you can just mash the gas to the floor. And it'll eat it up. At the autocross, there were a lot of high hp/torque rear drive cars that would spin all the time from adding too much throttle coming out of the corners...

[GS833]

Originally Posted by Josh49

Yep - AWD is nice in this sense. Coming out of the corners you can just mash the gas to the floor. And it'll eat it up. At the autocross, there were a lot of high hp/torque rear drive cars that would spin all the time from adding too much throttle coming out of the corners...

Yeah I realize I'll have to get used to totally different reactions this time around. My STI was very easy to rotate and to get traction on, almost too easy. But I learned to be really sensible with the gas pedal after I installed coilovers on the car. I would basically get the car to rotate and point it where I wanted to just by modulating the throttle, that should be very handy with the 335.

[dhmilosr]

Originally Posted by The Cleaner

Leave it on, you will be faster and learn to drive the car as designed. I dont see a single advantage to turning off the systems.

Agreed. I don't see any advantage to spinning my car or its wheels. Once you break traction, you've lost the game. The systems not only let you get right to the edge of available traction, but will keep the car on the road it pitch or yaw would cause the car to not track properly. Sounds exactly like what I'd want when doing auto-cross. I'll concentrate on driving down the road, the car can make sure I can go as fast as possible. :rocks:

[bhvrdr]

For track driving, you do not want to keep these systems active. I am not sure if you will find a single track driver who would advocate this. These sytems will cut throttle and will brake. You do not want that. You want to be able to control spin on your own and in some cases to use it to steer the car if needed. Once you learn to drive the car, these systems will do nothing but slow you down. An example is that even on the powerfull M5, when you cant disable the system (MT cars) it loses at least a half second just to 60mph and reduced it's holding on the skid pad by at least .04g IIRC.

cheers! Mike

[leftcoastman]

Originally Posted by The Cleaner

Leave it on, you will be faster and learn to drive the car as designed. I dont see a single advantage to turning off the systems.

TC can be quite harsh sometimes. If you are sliding slightly out of a corner, it can kick in HARD and cut off your power completely for a second. The correction could be quite abrupt. Sometimes you want a bit of slide without computer intervention.

A crude example of this is try to do a 1/4 mile launch with all the nannies on. When you spin a bit, the nanny will cut off all power, making you bog. This complete depowering could be very unsettling in a corner.

[Josh49]

I agree. It really bogs you down. A lot. It cuts so much power and doesn't let you control the car at all the way you want to control it. Seriously, some slippage, etc is not a bad thing and is much, much faster. I couldn't believe how much easier it was to drive autocross with it all off compared to on at any level..

[AndrewAZ]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

TC can be quite harsh sometimes. If you are sliding slightly out of a corner, it can kick in HARD and cut off your power completely for a second. The correction could be quite abrupt. Sometimes you want a bit of slide without computer intervention.

A crude example of this is try to do a 1/4 mile launch with all the nannies on. When you spin a bit, the nanny will cut off all power, making you bog. This complete depowering could be very unsettling in a corner.

+1... There is more to just turning the wheel when taking a corner you have to use the throttle to help you turn and balance the car out by shifting the weight of the car by using the throttle.. DTC is very very aggressive... Personally I would run DTC off and DSC on, the only reason I would take DSC off is if I wanted to drift but like others have said having a smooth turn in and smooth line you shouldn't have DSC kick on. But DTC is overly aggressive.

[The Cleaner]

Originally Posted by leftcoastman

TC can be quite harsh sometimes. If you are sliding slightly out of a corner, it can kick in HARD and cut off your power completely for a second. The correction could be quite abrupt. Sometimes you want a bit of slide without computer intervention.

A crude example of this is try to do a 1/4 mile launch with all the nannies on. When you spin a bit, the nanny will cut off all power, making you bog. This complete depowering could be very unsettling in a corner.

I agree 100% however a small change in driving style will eliminate the TS from having to take aggressive action and the net result is almost always better lap times.

One thing that has to be understood when you want to race with traction control and ABS for that matter... your driving style will need to be more precise in areas you use to get away with being sloppy. Sloppy in the sense you would let the car get away from you a little and drive it out.

[E90330iS]

It is all up to your track experience! If you are an excellent track driver with a lot of experience in your car having no traction control is definitely the most natural and optimal set up for a great track time. However, while you are still not familiar with characteristics of your car on track I would suggest you to run a couple of laps on the track first with DTC on and learn while the system is there to save you! For the first Car & Driver article, the professional test driver took the 330i on the track and was not familiar with the car and he got best time with DTC, second best with no traction (no DSC nor DTC), and last with DSC on. Sorry I don't have the article to prove it was about two years ago

[GS833]

From what you guys are saying, it would probaly be better to run with everything off and probaly try a lap or two at the most with just DSC on to see just how intrusive it is on a track. My "on street" experience has been that even the DSC is pretty aggresive as well.
In the end it's all relative to your driving style...

[GS833]

Originally Posted by E90330iS

"...For the first Car & Driver article, the professional test driver took the 330i on the track and was not familiar with the car and he got best time with DTC, second best with no traction (no DSC nor DTC), and last with DSC on. Sorry I don't have the article to prove it was about two years ago ..."

Interesting, I'll look for that article. Thanks!

[kevbh]

With a 325i, I don't exactly have the horsepower issue you do, but my opinion...

Autocross - I turn it all off. With the real tight corners and slaloms involved in an autocross course, the computer really cuts in a lot and interfers with your run. After just one run with it all turned on, you'll know what I mean. I have run with just one push of the button, and that worked pretty well. It allows enough wheel spin and slip angle to work on an autocross course, but steps in if you've got it all wrong and saves some embarrasment. I did my fastest time at one event using this setting. But my general rule of thumb is turn it all off. It's not like you'll hurt anything if you spin.

Track - I've only done a track day one time so far and it was at Road Atlanta. I left everything turned on. There was one tight corner (7) that felt like the throttle was being dialed back a little, but that was it. Being new to track days, I was not driving the car at full capacity - I was trying, but let's be honest. Bottom line - this is my daily driver, and I operate on the assumption that insurance will NOT be in effect at the track. Therefore, I left it all on as an extra safety measure. Your mileage may vary...

Rots of Ruck!

[choatie88]

To chime in one other observation - I find DTC (push button briefly) to be much less intrusive than DSC (no push). I actually find DSC to be scary because when you're at the edge, you have no idea when it will kick in and cause the car to handle very strangely. In general I've found that DSC won't let you oversteer, but it will create sudden unpredictable understeer.

[sblument]

I am a novice (three autox's, 1 track day) and have been turning everything off. I did experiment one autox run with DSC on and it was slowing me down. As I gain more experience, I'd like to experiment with DSC and DTC on the track. For now I just want to drive the car myself, without computer assistance. That said, for any street driving it's all on except for DTC in heavy snow/unplowed roads as per the manual.

I have a theory (easily debunked, perhaps) that with DTC on for a track day the DTC might provide *some* of the benefits of an LSD.

If any of you do want to do autox or DE with the system on, use DTC. DTC has higher intervention thresholds and is more appropriate for performance driving than DSC.