How does alignment end up changing on its own?

Drivaar · 03-05-2011, 06:21 AM

Is it just because the adjustment screws aren't torqued down enough?

I live in an area with lots of potholes and bad roads, and I'm finding that I need to align pretty often... like once a month or so, really. I can feel a huge difference each time I align.

What I don't get is why the alignment has to change, when there are suspension components (shocks) to absorb bumps anyway.

Is there a reason why the alignment adjustments are designed to have some "give" over time?

Thanks!

ChasVS · 03-05-2011, 07:28 AM

Normal wear and tear of the tires and effects of the roads will cause alignment to go off. But monthly seems way more than necessary. Are you doing this yourself or is your shop "taking you for a ride"?

cwaters · 03-05-2011, 07:32 AM

If you drove on totally smooth roads all the time, I doubt it would change at all, with the possible exception of incremental wear on rubber components.
But you don't.
When you hit stuff the springs and dampers absorb some of the impact but not all of it. Stuff slips out of place a little, joints wear, and rubber deteriorates. Sometimes, suspension mounting points can flex or bend (my E36 strut mounts bent a lot).
All that being said, monthly alignments should not be necessary unless you're bombing up and down the Alcan Highway every day. Who is doing your alignment work?

Drivaar · 03-05-2011, 09:11 AM

The alignments are being done by Firestone (they have lifetime alignment for $150 or so, which is an awesome deal for me). So no $ out of my pocket for the alignments, and their output seems good -- the spec sheet and my driving feel are both great after the alignments are done.

(Also I have had alignments done by other folks, including BMW dealers, with the same issue -- it just seems to get out of spec pretty easily.)

I had a BMW dealer check for bushing wear and they said all was fine. But they are such idiots that I always feel like they do nothing when they "check" anything.

I do drive over major bumps each and every day unfortunately -- some huge jarring ones that just cannot be avoided. They aren't potholes even, just road joins that are poor across the width of the road.

But I still do agree with you guys that having to do such frequent alignments can't be right. I'm taking the car in to an independent shop next week, since I'm now out of BMW's warranty and have an independent one.

Any further thoughts/advice?

I certainly do feel a huge difference -- when the car is aligned properly, it feels like a nice car. But when it's not, it really does feel very jittery and does not inspire any confidence at all, except on the smoothest roads.

tomz17 · 03-05-2011, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drivaar

Any further thoughts/advice?

Monthly alignments are definitely excessive. There is no way your car should go out of alignment once a month. Ask the shop aligning the car to give you an idea of how far out of alignment it was when you brought it in.

It's either
#1) Psychological (you feel better after you know the car is aligned)
#2) Real : get an independent shop to check out the suspension.

Drivaar · 03-05-2011, 12:01 PM

tomz17: yeah, I look at the before/after, and always one or more items are crazy out of whack... like toe being way out of spec. But it's never a consistent issue -- sometimes front, sometimes rear, etc...

It's definitely not psychological -- the car was pulling on acceleration, and just felt so "unplanted", especially when accelerating at highway speeds... and after alignment, it's great. Accelerates straight, and doesn't feel "light" when doing so.

I don't actually get alignment monthly (just because I don't have time to keep doing that), but I do feel like the alignment deteriorates pretty quickly. There are just soooo many harsh bumps around here, once in a while you get a huge "thud" and that's probably it.

I'm lucky/unlucky that I can feel when the alignment is off... to me, anyone should be able to tell when the car pulls on acceleration, though.

noro · 03-05-2011, 12:34 PM

Aging bushings,
Worn ball joints
Slight metal flex (more common with steel suspensions than aluminum)
Car's chassis settling over time.

All these will contribute to alignment changes.

Drivaar · 03-05-2011, 06:43 PM

noro: are those expensive to replace? My car is at 53K miles or so now, and I think the suspension has definitely done a lot of work in its life...

ChasVS · 03-05-2011, 09:24 PM

From the sounf of it, it's all in your head.

fdriller9 · 03-05-2011, 09:32 PM

This is a total guess but I think creep/fatigue may also have to do with it. Obviously not within a month but over the life of the car, the tolerances of different components will change.

J02 335i · 03-05-2011, 09:46 PM

Sounds like you lifetime alignment deal is the shops way to generate more business. Good one at that, cause it sounds like its working. Even though you are not paying for your alignment every time you take your car in they are checking for problems to charge you for and will eventuality find something and rape you for it, so beware of that.

BimmerGuyFL · 04-08-2011, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drivaar

tomz17: yeah, I look at the before/after, and always one or more items are crazy out of whack... like toe being way out of spec. But it's never a consistent issue -- sometimes front, sometimes rear, etc...

It's definitely not psychological -- the car was pulling on acceleration, and just felt so "unplanted", especially when accelerating at highway speeds... and after alignment, it's great. Accelerates straight, and doesn't feel "light" when doing so.

I don't actually get alignment monthly (just because I don't have time to keep doing that), but I do feel like the alignment deteriorates pretty quickly. There are just soooo many harsh bumps around here, once in a while you get a huge "thud" and that's probably it.

I'm lucky/unlucky that I can feel when the alignment is off... to me, anyone should be able to tell when the car pulls on acceleration, though.

OMG! I am having the same problem you are having with your 3-series. I feel like the alignment is good for almost a week and then slowly it starts to change and the steering is not as centered and the car doesn't track straight and true as the same day I just got an alignment done.

It is really frustrating having a car that is expensive and constantly feeling like it has a design flaw. Our X5 doesn't have this problem. But the four 3-series we have had. 2004 325i, 2005 330i, 2008 335i, and 2010 328i all have had the SAME problem. WTF!?

MCOChuck · 04-08-2011, 11:27 AM

Once a month is excessive...I do two a year. You should send a letter to your local representative complaining about the roads to get em fixed!

FVM3 · 04-08-2011, 11:34 AM

wear and tear

TheRox · 04-09-2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drivaar

Is it just because the adjustment screws aren't torqued down enough?

I live in an area with lots of potholes and bad roads, and I'm finding that I need to align pretty often... like once a month or so, really. I can feel a huge difference each time I align.

What I don't get is why the alignment has to change, when there are suspension components (shocks) to absorb bumps anyway.

Is there a reason why the alignment adjustments are designed to have some "give" over time?

Thanks!

Yea buddy its basic high school physics.

Everytime you drive your alignment changes by a bit...going over potholes causes it to change and deviate by MORe than a bit.

Every time your wheels are on the ground and the suspension is getting action, it directs forces at the joints where the suspension is tuned.

this is normal. thank your infrastructure -- cost of living wherever you are.

John 070 · 04-09-2011, 08:29 AM

Dateline asked the same question back in Feb. They mounted hidden cameras to the shock towers of a E94 and they saw guys rolling up to the car at night and adjusting the tie rods. It happened every day for the entire 2 wks that they were shooting the episode.

HighlandPete · 04-09-2011, 11:44 AM

I personally don't understand this at all, what can be moving unless something is worn out and each alignment is not an alignment at all.

Unless you are hitiing something really hard and/or parts are worn out, it can't move if adjustment points are correctly torqued up. What can move?

HighlandPete

Drivaar · 04-09-2011, 12:14 PM

Yes, THAT is my question, HighlandPete...

Sounds like there are still "soft spots" in terms of bushings that can move?

I don't get why bumps are not absorbed pretty much fully by the shocks/springs.

chris328i · 04-09-2011, 04:19 PM

If the impacts are great enough the suspension and body can be moved. It takes very high impacts to do this. It is extremely unusual to need an alignment every month. Are your roads this bad in warm weather? Do you still need an alignment every month if the roads are smoother in Summer?

Some people/cars/tires are more sensitive to alignment, but you definitely should not need an alignment every month. Perhaps the shop isn't using the proper alignment specs for your car? Dimensionally how much change is there before and after the alignment? Does one side go out of alignment more than the other? If so you may have suspention wear issues.

Drivaar · 04-09-2011, 07:11 PM

Yeah, some of the roads in the East Bay area are actually very poor... substantial unavoidable potholes, sometimes on freeway merges, etc... where you will hit them at high speed.

Norcal_335i · 04-09-2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drivaar

The alignments are being done by Firestone (they have lifetime alignment for $150 or so, which is an awesome deal for me). So no $ out of my pocket for the alignments, and their output seems good -- the spec sheet and my driving feel are both great after the alignments are done.

(Also I have had alignments done by other folks, including BMW dealers, with the same issue -- it just seems to get out of spec pretty easily.)

I had a BMW dealer check for bushing wear and they said all was fine. But they are such idiots that I always feel like they do nothing when they "check" anything.

I do drive over major bumps each and every day unfortunately -- some huge jarring ones that just cannot be avoided. They aren't potholes even, just road joins that are poor across the width of the road.

But I still do agree with you guys that having to do such frequent alignments can't be right. I'm taking the car in to an independent shop next week, since I'm now out of BMW's warranty and have an independent one.

Any further thoughts/advice?

I certainly do feel a huge difference -- when the car is aligned properly, it feels like a nice car. But when it's not, it really does feel very jittery and does not inspire any confidence at all, except on the smoothest roads.

Heres your problem.....Firestone!!!!

Drivaar · 04-09-2011, 08:14 PM

Nope, that's not it. The car is always great after it's aligned, for a few weeks -- it just seems to deteriorate pretty fast. And a dealer even did an alignment and found it to match. The dealer took me to the shop, and it looked like they use exactly the same system as Firestone, BTW... So actually the Firestone guys are doing a pretty good job (mostly - not always, for sure).

03-05-2011, 06:21 AM	#1
Drivaar Lieutenant 73 Rep 463 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	How does alignment end up changing on its own? Is it just because the adjustment screws aren't torqued down enough? I live in an area with lots of potholes and bad roads, and I'm finding that I need to align pretty often... like once a month or so, really. I can feel a huge difference each time I align. What I don't get is why the alignment has to change, when there are suspension components (shocks) to absorb bumps anyway. Is there a reason why the alignment adjustments are designed to have some "give" over time? Thanks!
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03-05-2011, 07:28 AM	#2
ChasVS Colonel 40 Rep 2,431 Posts Drives: 2012 MB ML350 Bluetec Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Central FL iTrader: (10)	Normal wear and tear of the tires and effects of the roads will cause alignment to go off. But monthly seems way more than necessary. Are you doing this yourself or is your shop "taking you for a ride"? __________________ My speeding isn't the problem. It's the Slow Folks ahead of me that cause accidents!
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03-05-2011, 07:32 AM	#3
cwaters New Member 0 Rep 16 Posts Drives: 2007 328i Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Douglasville, GA iTrader: (0)	If you drove on totally smooth roads all the time, I doubt it would change at all, with the possible exception of incremental wear on rubber components. But you don't. When you hit stuff the springs and dampers absorb some of the impact but not all of it. Stuff slips out of place a little, joints wear, and rubber deteriorates. Sometimes, suspension mounting points can flex or bend (my E36 strut mounts bent a lot). All that being said, monthly alignments should not be necessary unless you're bombing up and down the Alcan Highway every day. Who is doing your alignment work?
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03-05-2011, 09:11 AM	#4
Drivaar Lieutenant 73 Rep 463 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	The alignments are being done by Firestone (they have lifetime alignment for $150 or so, which is an awesome deal for me). So no $ out of my pocket for the alignments, and their output seems good -- the spec sheet and my driving feel are both great after the alignments are done. (Also I have had alignments done by other folks, including BMW dealers, with the same issue -- it just seems to get out of spec pretty easily.) I had a BMW dealer check for bushing wear and they said all was fine. But they are such idiots that I always feel like they do nothing when they "check" anything. I do drive over major bumps each and every day unfortunately -- some huge jarring ones that just cannot be avoided. They aren't potholes even, just road joins that are poor across the width of the road. But I still do agree with you guys that having to do such frequent alignments can't be right. I'm taking the car in to an independent shop next week, since I'm now out of BMW's warranty and have an independent one. Any further thoughts/advice? I certainly do feel a huge difference -- when the car is aligned properly, it feels like a nice car. But when it's not, it really does feel very jittery and does not inspire any confidence at all, except on the smoothest roads.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-05-2011, 12:01 PM	#6
Drivaar Lieutenant 73 Rep 463 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	tomz17: yeah, I look at the before/after, and always one or more items are crazy out of whack... like toe being way out of spec. But it's never a consistent issue -- sometimes front, sometimes rear, etc... It's definitely not psychological -- the car was pulling on acceleration, and just felt so "unplanted", especially when accelerating at highway speeds... and after alignment, it's great. Accelerates straight, and doesn't feel "light" when doing so. I don't actually get alignment monthly (just because I don't have time to keep doing that), but I do feel like the alignment deteriorates pretty quickly. There are just soooo many harsh bumps around here, once in a while you get a huge "thud" and that's probably it. I'm lucky/unlucky that I can feel when the alignment is off... to me, anyone should be able to tell when the car pulls on acceleration, though.
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03-05-2011, 12:34 PM	#7
noro Colonel 90 Rep 2,707 Posts Drives: '91 M3, '04 E46 ZHP, '72 2002 Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Boston iTrader: (0)	Aging bushings, Worn ball joints Slight metal flex (more common with steel suspensions than aluminum) Car's chassis settling over time. All these will contribute to alignment changes. __________________ zhpregistry.net - ZHP stats and free classifieds.
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03-05-2011, 06:43 PM	#8
Drivaar Lieutenant 73 Rep 463 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	noro: are those expensive to replace? My car is at 53K miles or so now, and I think the suspension has definitely done a lot of work in its life...
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03-05-2011, 09:24 PM	#9
ChasVS Colonel 40 Rep 2,431 Posts Drives: 2012 MB ML350 Bluetec Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Central FL iTrader: (10)	From the sounf of it, it's all in your head. __________________ My speeding isn't the problem. It's the Slow Folks ahead of me that cause accidents!
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03-05-2011, 09:32 PM	#10
fdriller9 Banned 255 Rep 7,089 Posts Drives: '06 AW 330xi Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North Jersey/Philly/NYC iTrader: (4) Garage List 2006 330xi [6.44]	This is a total guess but I think creep/fatigue may also have to do with it. Obviously not within a month but over the life of the car, the tolerances of different components will change.
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03-05-2011, 09:46 PM	#11
J02 335i Lieutenant Colonel 39 Rep 1,558 Posts Drives: F80 M3 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Ontario iTrader: (1)	Sounds like you lifetime alignment deal is the shops way to generate more business. Good one at that, cause it sounds like its working. Even though you are not paying for your alignment every time you take your car in they are checking for problems to charge you for and will eventuality find something and rape you for it, so beware of that. __________________ Sport pack, JB3, Dci, factory oil cooler, 18" M3 reps, Michelin PSS, painted trim, black grills, smoked side markers, LED plate lights, H&R coils, Borla catback
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04-08-2011, 11:27 AM	#13
MCOChuck Second Lieutenant 9 Rep 228 Posts Drives: 2012 E92 328i xDrive M-Sport Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ottawa, Canada iTrader: (0) Garage List 2012 E92 328i xDriv ... [0.00]	Once a month is excessive...I do two a year. You should send a letter to your local representative complaining about the roads to get em fixed!
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04-08-2011, 11:34 AM	#14
FVM3 Major General 273 Rep 5,751 Posts Drives: e92 m3, f30 328i Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Los Angeles iTrader: (2)	wear and tear
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04-09-2011, 08:29 AM	#16
John 070 Lieutenant General 1707 Rep 14,829 Posts Drives: 335i cpe Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: ZSP/ZPP/ZCW iTrader: (0)	Dateline asked the same question back in Feb. They mounted hidden cameras to the shock towers of a E94 and they saw guys rolling up to the car at night and adjusting the tie rods. It happened every day for the entire 2 wks that they were shooting the episode.
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04-09-2011, 11:44 AM	#17
HighlandPete Lieutenant General 6663 Rep 15,858 Posts Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland, Highland Region iTrader: (0)	I personally don't understand this at all, what can be moving unless something is worn out and each alignment is not an alignment at all. Unless you are hitiing something really hard and/or parts are worn out, it can't move if adjustment points are correctly torqued up. What can move? HighlandPete
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04-09-2011, 12:14 PM	#18
Drivaar Lieutenant 73 Rep 463 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	Yes, THAT is my question, HighlandPete... Sounds like there are still "soft spots" in terms of bushings that can move? I don't get why bumps are not absorbed pretty much fully by the shocks/springs.
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04-09-2011, 04:19 PM	#19
chris328i Private First Class 3 Rep 111 Posts Drives: 328i Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ohio iTrader: (0)	If the impacts are great enough the suspension and body can be moved. It takes very high impacts to do this. It is extremely unusual to need an alignment every month. Are your roads this bad in warm weather? Do you still need an alignment every month if the roads are smoother in Summer? Some people/cars/tires are more sensitive to alignment, but you definitely should not need an alignment every month. Perhaps the shop isn't using the proper alignment specs for your car? Dimensionally how much change is there before and after the alignment? Does one side go out of alignment more than the other? If so you may have suspention wear issues.
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04-09-2011, 07:11 PM	#20
Drivaar Lieutenant 73 Rep 463 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	Yeah, some of the roads in the East Bay area are actually very poor... substantial unavoidable potholes, sometimes on freeway merges, etc... where you will hit them at high speed.
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04-09-2011, 08:14 PM	#22
Drivaar Lieutenant 73 Rep 463 Posts Drives: BMW Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Earth iTrader: (0)	Nope, that's not it. The car is always great after it's aligned, for a few weeks -- it just seems to deteriorate pretty fast. And a dealer even did an alignment and found it to match. The dealer took me to the shop, and it looked like they use exactly the same system as Firestone, BTW... So actually the Firestone guys are doing a pretty good job (mostly - not always, for sure).
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