[JRJ1970]

Odd question here, hopefully I'm in the right forum, but I'm intrigued to know the answer:

I recall a discussion between two guys at my BMW dealership regarding used BMWs on the lot. One of them said, "I don't want a car that has been "tracked." The other replied, "You can always tell a car has been "tracked" if there are dimples in the roof and/or hood."

Huh?!? Why is this?

[BoostedCosta]

wtf? never heard of that

[BoostedCosta]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Sounds like two guys on crack to me.

or the salesmen pulled that out of his ass and the customer had nothing to say since he thought he was right? lol

[Outlaw 06]

ZSP, 6MT, RWD, BMW 3-Series cars are meant to be tracked occasionally.

[Gesler]

Never been to the track personally, but he probably meant damage to the hood and roof similar to rock chips. I gather some people occasionally put a type of tape over the hood etc to minimize this.

[runrider]

He was talking about 'speed holes'.

[noro]

Nope, no crack... it is real. Under heavy loads the forces will travel from shock towers all the way to the pillars and deform the top end enough to start bending the roof metal. I have seen a few E30 M3 when I was looking for mine to have this problem.

It is a real issue.

[///Mik3]

uh, to say that you can always tell by this, is definitely wrong. Just because i car doesn't have a warped hood or roof, doesn't mean it hasn't been tracked.

[335e92tx]

spent 8 twenty min sessions on a local 2.9 mile 15 turn track and I have no dimples. And I certainly was driving - only got passed 1 by a z06 and passed him back in the next turn.

[AlanL]

I find the comment about the dimples ludicrous but at the same time a heavily tracked car is no prize.

Over the course of 8 years I had 3 different cars that saw track use far above and beyond normal - 90+ events. They were a 2001 Audi S4, a 2004 Audi S4 Avant, and a 2005 Honda S2000. When I sent each of these out to pasture they looked remarkable - no overt signs of wear whatever and I am highly meticulous about how I detail my cars.

From a wear and tear perspective you couldn't give me any of them after the wear I subjected them to out on the track. 100 miles on the track is probably the equivalent of 2000 miles on the streets or more (possibly a lot more) in terms of the impact on the car's life. The stresses of smacking the suspension as you hit the FIAA curbing for the sweet spot in a turn at full throttle equals a thousand potholes in daily driving. Repeat that for 100+ laps at a typical track day and then think about it's effect on the suspension's lifespan.

I was in denial of the wear factor for many years while I did this as my primary hobby but in retrospect I have to admit I sent away cars with far more rattles and suspension/steering wear than you might ever suspect from the miles on the odometer.

Track driving is a lot of fun but make no mistake - your street car was not designed to do a lot of this.

[runrider]

Originally Posted by AlanL

I find the comment about the dimples ludicrous but at the same time a heavily tracked car is no prize.

Over the course of 8 years I had 3 different cars that saw track use far above and beyond normal - 90+ events. They were a 2001 Audi S4, a 2004 Audi S4 Avant, and a 2005 Honda S2000. When I sent each of these out to pasture they looked remarkable - no overt signs of wear whatever and I am highly meticulous about how I detail my cars.

From a wear and tear perspective you couldn't give me any of them after the wear I subjected them to out on the track. 100 miles on the track is probably the equivalent of 2000 miles on the streets or more (possibly a lot more) in terms of the impact on the car's life. The stresses of smacking the suspension as you hit the FIAA curbing for the sweet spot in a turn at full throttle equals a thousand potholes in daily driving. Repeat that for 100+ laps at a typical track day and then think about it's effect on the suspension's lifespan.

I was in denial of the wear factor for many years while I did this as my primary hobby but in retrospect I have to admit I sent away cars with far more rattles and suspension/steering wear than you might ever suspect from the miles on the odometer.

Track driving is a lot of fun but make no mistake - your street car was not designed to do a lot of this.

That must be why all of my parents' Ford minivans drive so poorly.

[BMW4Life66]

dam thats weird i have like a dimple dent in my roof, never gone to the track but go canyoning sometimes.

[noro]

I should add that this happens after the car spends CONSIDERABLE amount of track time using high grip (slick) tires. It shouldn't happen to you at driving school with your average street tires. Also the problem affects older cars with less reinforcement.

[Mnut]

dimples in the roof and/or hood ..lol

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by AlanL

I find the comment about the dimples ludicrous but at the same time a heavily tracked car is no prize.

Over the course of 8 years I had 3 different cars that saw track use far above and beyond normal - 90+ events. They were a 2001 Audi S4, a 2004 Audi S4 Avant, and a 2005 Honda S2000. When I sent each of these out to pasture they looked remarkable - no overt signs of wear whatever and I am highly meticulous about how I detail my cars.

From a wear and tear perspective you couldn't give me any of them after the wear I subjected them to out on the track. 100 miles on the track is probably the equivalent of 2000 miles on the streets or more (possibly a lot more) in terms of the impact on the car's life. The stresses of smacking the suspension as you hit the FIAA curbing for the sweet spot in a turn at full throttle equals a thousand potholes in daily driving. Repeat that for 100+ laps at a typical track day and then think about it's effect on the suspension's lifespan.

I was in denial of the wear factor for many years while I did this as my primary hobby but in retrospect I have to admit I sent away cars with far more rattles and suspension/steering wear than you might ever suspect from the miles on the odometer.

Track driving is a lot of fun but make no mistake - your street car was not designed to do a lot of this.

We used to say that a perfectly designed race car breaks down right after it crosses the finish line. If it breaks down before that it was underderdesigned and if it does not break down it was overdesigned.


I personally would not use my street car as a track car. I am far too anal about keeping my car in perfect condition to subject it to a track. You can buy dedicated track cars with proper racing seats, roll cages and 5 point harnesses for very reassonable prices. But I do see some very expensive Porsches, Ferraris, etc. being driven very hard at the track so obviously not everyone things the same way I do.
CA

[AlanL]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

We used to say that a perfectly designed race car breaks down right after it crosses the finish line. If it breaks down before that it was underderdesigned and if it does not break down it was overdesigned.


I personally would not use my street car as a track car. I am far too anal about keeping my car in perfect condition to subject it to a track. You can buy dedicated track cars with proper racing seats, roll cages and 5 point harnesses for very reassonable prices. But I do see some very expensive Porsches, Ferraris, etc. being driven very hard at the track so obviously not everyone things the same way I do.
CA

Ding ding - we have someone with a clue on board

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

We used to say that a perfectly designed race car breaks down right after it crosses the finish line. If it breaks down before that it was underderdesigned and if it does not break down it was overdesigned.


I personally would not use my street car as a track car. I am far too anal about keeping my car in perfect condition to subject it to a track. You can buy dedicated track cars with proper racing seats, roll cages and 5 point harnesses for very reassonable prices. But I do see some very expensive Porsches, Ferraris, etc. being driven very hard at the track so obviously not everyone things the same way I do. CA

I understand what you're saying about "dedicated track cars", but I doubt that driving hard in a couple of HPDEs a year is detrimental to a properly maintained (and optioned) performance car. There's simply no other safe and legal way to determine our cars' limits without tracking them occasionally. This is especially true for ///M cars.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by TJDiCandido

I understand what you're saying about "dedicated track cars", but I doubt that driving hard in a couple of HPDEs a year is detrimental to a properly maintained (and optioned) performance car. There's simply no other safe and legal way to determine our cars' limits without tracking them occasionally. This is especially true for ///M cars.

I agree. Nothing wrong with learning the cars limits and the track is the place to do that. Might even be good for the car to wring it out occaisionally. Just be aware that a street car is not a race car.

I also have a personal rule:

"Never track a car that you can not afford to destroy"

(Don't ask me how I know this)

CA

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

..."Never track a car that you can not afford to destroy"...

Sage advice indeed...

I'll be putting it to the test with my M3 at Lime Rock HPDEs on May 1st (BMWCCA) and June 14th (SCDA) this year.

[Kiemyster]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

"Never track a car that you can not afford to destroy"
CA

this

Originally Posted by captainaudio

We used to say that a perfectly designed race car breaks down right after it crosses the finish line. If it breaks down before that it was underderdesigned and if it does not break down it was overdesigned.CA

this

Originally Posted by AlanL

I find the comment about the dimples ludicrous but at the same time a heavily tracked car is no prize.

Track driving is a lot of fun but make no mistake - your street car was not designed to do a lot of this.

and this

[Kraven]

Originally Posted by AlanL

Ding ding - we have someone with a clue on board

Agreed...AlanL, thanks for a concise, informative and useful post. My grandfather used to say he would never buy a used car because he didn't think it made sense to buy another man's problems... I understand not everyone can afford a new BMW, however you don't need to buy a used higher end auto if you aren't fortunate enough to be able to afford a new one...there are other more affordable options from other makers. I bought a used car once and the turbo went out within a few months and cost me $1,100 to fix. I also bought a dealer exec car with 6K miles on it and that car lasted me over 10 years, only sold it to upgrade with 120K miles on the clock.

An age old problem is that many people, usually youth but not always, don't understand the concept of deferred gratification...

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by TJDiCandido

Sage advice indeed...

I'll be putting it to the test with my M3 at Lime Rock HPDEs on May 1st (BMWCCA) and June 14th (SCDA) this year.

I may see you there. I will very likely be at LRP on May 1st.

CA