[taylorchuck]

I have a 2008 335i with 143k miles. I’ve been having some electrical problems recently but now I’ve gotten to a point that i don’t know where to look next. Over the last few weeks my tail lights would come on when i turned the car off and i would have to sit there putting the key in and out of the ignition until the lights would finally stay off when i removed the key. I figured it had something to do with the relay for the cas system. A few days ago i was leaving work and my car wouldn’t start, no crank at all. I thought maybe the tail lights were stuck on again and drained the battery. So i plugged in a charger and about 15 minutes later the car started. I made it a block away from my job and the car shut off at a light. While waiting for a tow truck to come get my car, i had a feeling that maybe the relay was bad so i ordered a temp replacement on Amazon so i could get it in the mail faster, and decided to investigate the bad relay. I pulled the cover off the relay and thought if i manually engaged the relay and it starts then i would know that the relay was the cause of the problems. When i plugged the relay back in without the casing, it clicked and worked like it was supposed to. So i left it in the way it was and waited for the replacement. When the Amazon relay came in the mail i decided to go ahead and change them out, and now the car won’t start with either relay in place. But like before i wanted to try my original test and hold the relay to engage it manually and when i do that the car starts. If i don’t touch the relay, the dash will light up but no starter and then the wipers start going until i pull the key out of the ignition. I’m not sure where to look right now, I’ve checked the cas module fuses and they’re good. Any suggestions for the next step to figuring this out would be much appreciated.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by taylorchuck

... 2008 335i... Over the last few weeks my tail lights would come on when i turned the car off and i would have to sit there putting the key in and out of the ignition until the lights would finally stay off when i removed the key. [Which rear lights? Tail/ Side Lights (inner & outer), or Brake Lights?] I figured it had something to do with the relay for the cas system. A few days ago i was leaving work and my car wouldn’t start, no crank at all... decided to investigate the bad relay. I pulled the cover off the relay and thought if i manually engaged the relay and it starts then i would know that the relay was the cause of the problems. When i plugged the relay back in without the casing, it clicked and worked like it was supposed to. So i left it in the way it was and waited for the replacement. When the Amazon relay came in the mail i decided to go ahead and change them out, and now the car won’t start with either relay in place. But like before i wanted to try my original test and hold the relay to engage it manually and when i do that the car starts. If i don’t touch the relay, the dash will light up but no starter and then the wipers start going until i pull the key out of the ignition...

Which Relay are you describing? The KL30G (Accessory) Removable Relay on Right of JB Fuse Panel? If so, that does NOT directly affect Starter Function. That is the "Accessory" relay that is activated by the CAS Module (along with KL15/ Ignition Relay) when START button is pressed. The Starter Solenoid that causes the Starter to "Crank" is activated directly by "Terminal 50" (KL50) in the CAS Module.

I'll attach, to NEXT Post, ISTA wiring diagram of the CAS Module related to Starter activation, directly from CAS via Black wire, S_50 to Starter, M6510a. That diagram (with Lines ID) also shows CAS Activation of "30G Relay", IO1068, via Red "30G<JB" wire, and CAS Activation of KL15 Ignition Relay (soldered to JB circuit board internally) via Green "15<JB" wire.

Be aware that if you have AT, as opposed to MT, TWO things must happen to enable CAS to send KL50 Signal to activate Starter:
1) Brake Light Switch must send signal to CAS that Brake is applied. Remote Key must be in Insert Compartment (NON-CA models) for Brake Lights to work. That activates KLR (Internal "Relay Equivalent" in CAS Module) which turns on Radio in addition to supplying power to Brake Light Switch (S29). So check to see that Radio operates, AND Brake Light Switch operates, when Remote Key inserted into "Insert Compartment". Since Brake Light Switch
2) CAS must also receive signal via bus system that AT Shift Lever is in P/N position. BOTH those signals must be received by CAS to Activate Starter (think Lawn Tractor Safety Switches ;-).

If you have either INPA or ISTA, or any Scan Tool that can show CAS Terminal Status as "Live Data", it would be easy to see what is going on (or NOT ;-). We CAN do some tests with simple DMM/ Multimeter, so please let us know what diagnostic equipment you have. I don't understand how manually activating the KL30G (Large/ Black) Relay on the JB fuse panel could affect Starter operation. Do check the two CAS Fuses (F36 & F55) again, as there MAY be a short in one of the Relay Activation Lines.

Also, given that the FIRST symptom you describe was an issue with (Unidentified) rear lights remaining ON after Remote Key removal, that suggests an issue with Brake Light Switch, KLR (internal to CAS Module), or FRM activation of Brake Lights, due to either sticking switch, FRM issue, or CAS powering of KL15 signal to FRM. Wiper "Self-Activation" (coming on WITHOUT Stalk activation) suggests a bus signal issue. There are systematic tests for all of these possibilities, so please let us know what equipment you have. Basic, Cheap ($7 HFT/ $10 Amazon) DMM is able to do needed tests.
George

[gbalthrop]

Attached are ISTA ScreenPrints related to CAS function discussed in Prior Post, 2008 335i, Intermittent NO Crank:
1) CAS Activation of: M6510a Starter; IO1068 30G Relay; IO1069 KL15 Relay; power to S29 Brake Light Switch (R_BLS)
2) Location of 30G Relay, IO1068 on JB Fuse Panel.
George

[taylorchuck]

Thanks for all the info, this problem is driving me nuts.

I do have and know how to use a multimeter. To add a little more that Ive discovered after making my first post, the wipers stopped after I removed the green relay in the top left corner of the fuse panel, and did not continue after replacing it in the correct spot. I checked the voltage going to the relay from the pins on the junction box, when I checked the terminals related to the 1 and 2 posts of the relay I got 12 volts when I insert the key, so I assume that means Im getting power to the relay like Im supposed to get. Maybe that means there's a ground problem causing it to not engage like its designed to. But yes, when I opened the relay that sits in the top right corner of the junction box and connect it into place, the starter will only work if I manually press the arm of the relay down to close the circuit that should close when the other side is getting power. As soon as I let go of the relay, it will run for a couple seconds and then die.

I don't know if I can use INPA or ISTA because I have a MacBook, and as much as I like using it for work, I am at a loss when it comes to using it for cars. Seems like every program Ive needed to use my computer for with cars is Windows only. I have obd2 scanners but none will give me the readings that youre talking about. But before I decide to believe I need a new CAS module programmed, I would like to figure out if it could be something else causing this problem since it worked fine before I switched the relay out with this new one.

[taylorchuck]

And let me also state a couple other things that may help determine what's going on. My car is equipped with comfort access as far as I know, but it doesn't work for whatever reason. When I bought the car earlier this year, I got one key fob with it and it looks to be the original. It has the removable battery and the door handles on both front doors have the ridges on the top. But Im not able to unlock or lock the car without using the fob buttons and to start the car I have to insert the key into the slot. Ive read that the CAS and CA systems send signals through one another so Im not sure if that has anything to do with the problems Im having now since its never been this kind of problem until it wouldn't start a few days ago.

With the brake switch, I read that if the taillights are staying on it could be a bad switch or a ground problem in the circuit, and to test you can unplug the switch and if it goes off then you most likely have a bad switch. When I unplugged the switch nothing happened with the taillights. They would continue to come on when I removed the key from the slot, and to get the lights to turn off I would have to reinsert the key for about 10 seconds without turning the ignition on, and then remove the key. At that point the lights would either come back on or flicker on and off while I could hear a clicking sound coming from the fuse panel area and then finally turn off. The problem with the taillights had really gone away after I had pulled the cover off the relay a few days ago and now as soon as I plug the battery up the lights are on. Before if I unplug the battery for 10 minutes the lights would stay off when I plugged it back up. Now if the battery is connected, the lights are on.

[taylorchuck]

Here are the fault codes Im getting when I scan it using my MHD code reader:

2DC3- DME: Monitoring, terminal 15
2EFE- DME: Electrical fan, activation
CD95- Message (operation, cruise control/ACC, 0x194)incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter DSC/SZL/LWS/ACC
CD98- Message error (DSC torque request 0x86), DME receiver, AHM/DSC transmitter
CD99- Message(torque request, EGS, 0xB5) incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter EGS/HIM/SMG/DCT
CD9C- Message(speed, 0x1A0)incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter DSC
CD9D- Message(transmission data, 0xBA) incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter EGS/HIM/SMH/DCT
CD9E- Message(transmission data 2, 0x1A2)incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter EGS/SMG/DCT
CDA1- Message(steering wheel angle, 0xC4)incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter DSC
CDA5- Message(status, DSC, 0x19E) incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter DSC
CDAD- Message error(request, wheel torque, drivetrain, 0xBF), DME receiver, DSC/LDM transmitter


None of these codes were present before I started having this no crank problem. And it all started after replacing the relay in the top right corner of the fuse panel last night. I changed the spark plugs and ignition coils with new ones, started it and ran it for a minute, turned it off to replace the relay and then all of this happened.

[taylorchuck]

Another update. When i got home from work, i checked the gear indicator as suggested and when i put the key in the ignition, the light by the gear selector does not light up, nor does the dash show what gear it’s in. If i press the start button and hold the brake, the gear selector will not shift out of park. I hope this will be able to tell what the problem is so i can go ahead and price some repairs. I’ve done all the work that’s been needed so far by myself, but coding parts is where i draw the line.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by taylorchuck

Here are the fault codes Im getting when I scan it using my MHD code reader:
...
CD99- Message(torque request, EGS, 0xB5) incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter EGS/HIM/SMG/DCT
CD9D- Message(transmission data, 0xBA) incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter EGS/HIM/SMH/DCT
CD9E- Message(transmission data 2, 0x1A2)incorrect, receiver DME, transmitter EGS/SMG/DCT
None of these codes were present before I started having this no crank problem. And it all started after replacing the relay in the top right corner of the fuse panel last night...

Originally Posted by taylorchuck

Another update. When i got home from work, i checked the gear indicator as suggested and when i put the key in the ignition, the light by the gear selector does not light up, nor does the dash show what gear it’s in. If i press the start button and hold the brake, the gear selector will not shift out of park.

The lack of Gear Selected display on Lower Instrument Cluster, and inability to Shift with foot on brake indicates an issue with either or both the KLR Radio/Brake Light Function when Remote Key inserted (BEFORE pressing START button), OR a bus communication issue with EGS (AT Module). The three communication from EGS faults above also indicate NO EGS communication.

Lack of "Bus" communication by EGS indicates either (1) Issue with EGS Power Supply, or PT-CAN bus signal with EGS. I would begin by testing for Brake Lights function (AND radio function) with Remote Key inserted, WITHOUT pressing START to activate Ignition. Then Check fuse F22, which SHOULD have 12V+ battery power when KL30G is active.

When you press START button without pressing Brake Pedal, that should activate KL30G relay, and you should NOW have Climate Control Panel lights and Blower function. If that is NOT happening, there is likely an issue with the Red Wire at X11010/2 (Pin #2 of Connector X11010) located at top-left of JB fuse panel.

I'll attach ISTA ScreenPrint of F22 power supply to EGS to Next Post. The "30G" above the fuse in the diagram means it is switched by 30G relay, so hopefully that CLUE will allow you to determine what is happening. If NO power to F22 socket by 30G Relay activation, then NO Crank (and not Gear Selected display) 'cuz NO Power to EGS.

Also note that the CAS Module Activates the KL30G relay electromagnet by providing voltage via the Red Wire to X11010/2 (Pin #2 of Connector X11010) located at Top-Left of JB Fuse Panel. It is possible that Connector has issues at Pin/ Socket #2, preventing activation of Relay 30G without manually closing the contacts. I will attach ISTA ScreenPrints to NEXT Post.
George

[gbalthrop]

Attached are ISTA ScreenPrints for 2008 335i as discussed in Prior Post.
George

[taylorchuck]

Ok i checked what you recommended with a multimeter. I’m not getting any power to f22 when key is inserted. But checking pin 2 on x11010, I’ve got 12v when i press start without the brake. I’m getting no power to the climate control or radio when key is inserted, with or without pressing the start button. The brake lights do light up with key inserted and brake pedal pressed, but as soon as i remove the key the brake lights come on and stay on without you i hung the brake pedal. With key inserted, the brake lights turn off until pressing on the brake pedal.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by taylorchuck

Ok i checked what you recommended with a multimeter.
1) I’m not getting any power to f22 when key is inserted...
2) checking pin 2 on x11010, I’ve got 12v when i press start without the brake.
3) I’m getting no power to the climate control or radio when key is inserted, with or without pressing the start button.
4) The brake lights do light up with key inserted and brake pedal pressed, but as soon as i remove the key the brake lights come on and stay on without ... the brake pedal. With key inserted, the brake lights turn off until pressing on the brake pedal.

My suggestion is to FIRST address WHY there is NO Power to F22, as that appears to be the reason for NO Crank (CAS is NOT receiving signal from EGS of P/N Gear Selection (NOT displayed on Instrument Cluster Lower Display with Ignition ON). That fuse F22 is powered by 30G Relay. So is Climate Control and other accessories.

As a "Sanity Check", inspect/test the two CAS fuses (F36 & F55) AGAIN.

I would want to know what parts of the vehicle were worked on prior to the issues beginning:
1) Was the Blower Harness Recall performed & When?
2) Has anyone done anything in the Gear Selector Lever area of the center console, or at the Transmission beneath the car?

Here is what I can tell from your 4 test results identified above:
1) F22, which powers the EGS Module, is NOT getting power (from the 30G relay) when Ignition ON (START button pressed WITHOUT pressing Brake). That means the Gear Selected display on lower Instrument Cluster does NOT show "P" and "P/N" signal is NOT received by CAS. Without that P/N signal, CAS will NOT send KL50 signal to Crank Starter when START button pressed with foot on brake.

2) If there is 12V+ in Red wire from CAS to X11010/2 with Ignition ON, then KL30G, the black relay on right of JB fuse Panel, should be activated, and THAT should power F22 socket, along with Climate Control Panel and other "Accessories". If that is NOT happening, there may be an issue with the JB fuse panel. See Below.

3) The Radio (KLR) should be activated when the Remote Key is inserted into Insert Compartment, and brake lights should also work. BOTH of those should occur simply inserting key, WITHOUT pressing START button. That is a KLR (Terminal R) function of the CAS Module. If THAT is NOT happening, then there is likely an issue with the Insert Compartment, the Ribbon Cable that connects Insert Compartment to CAS Module, or the CAS Module itself. I understand your vehicle has CA which is NOT functioning (separate issue presumably).

3A) The Climate Control Panel should light, and OTHER Accessories should function when Ignition ON, or START button is pressed without pressing Brake. If that does NOT happen, then KL30G, the "Accessory" relay is NOT being activated, even if CAS is sending voltage in Red wire to X11010/2.

4) The brake lights (as opposed to the Tail Lights, Parking Lights or Side Lights) are supposed to work when Brake pressed with Key inserted (before Igntion ON). KLR in CAS Module powers Radio & Brake Lights. If Brake Lights remain ON when Remote Key is removed, but always work when Brake Pedal pressed with Key inserted (and F22 is NOT powered), then NO CRANK is due to lack of P/N signal from EGS (due to F22 NOT being powered), and NOT related to Brake Lights. Those staying on is unrelated to NO Crank AFAIK. There MAY be an issue with the FRM (lighting Module), or its wiring. I would want to know if there are any FRM Fault Codes. It would be helpful to know ALL Fault Codes in ALL ~ 20 Modules in the vehicle.

You have multiple things going on: NO Crank; CA inoperative; Brake Lights staying on; F22 NOT powered; KL30G NOT activating with Ignition ON; Radio NOT coming on when Key inserted; Climate Control Panel NOT lighting/ functioning when Ignition ON.

It would be a LOT easier if you had INPA, ISTA, or some Scan Tool that could display LIVE DATA of "CAS Terminal Status" which shows voltages at all fuses & terminals, and Digital status of Brake Light & P/N signals as received by CAS, as well as Hall Sensor signals related to Insert Compartment function. Obviously, that Software/ Scan Tool could also display Fault Codes in ALL ~ 20 Modules of your vehicle. If you are trying to "Sort" a "New-to-you" vehicle with multiple issues, I would try to find cheapest way to get INPA/ISTA. See attached pdf: '1 E9x References'.

I don't know anything about a "Mac". I understand that there are ways to run Windows OS on a Mac, at least certain models, but have NO experience/knowledge with/of that. Search 'Virtual Machine', VMware, etc. Even if you had to get a used Windows OS Laptop (~ $200 on Craigslist) or even if you paid $400 for new Lenovo with 1TB HD & 20GB RAM, and another $30 to $50 for K+DCAN cable, that would save diagnostic $$$ & Frustration in the long-run.
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=lenovo+la...aptop_k0_1_7_0

While it is "theoretically possible" to test all that with Multimeter, if you haven't seen what INPA can display, and pored over the wiring diagrams to understand HOW it all functions, it's "a can of worms".

I'm willing to answer any questions you have about function of the system, or to furnish ISTA wiring diagrams, but there are enough issues here that I'm NOT sure it makes sense to try to "sort" it over the Web.
George

[taylorchuck]

The only work that was done immediately before this problem became a problem is the spark plugs and ignition coils were changed out with new ones from FCP Euro, and it started and ran perfectly after swapping those out. And immediately after turning the car off when the coils and plugs were swapped, I pulled the KL30G relay to replace it with a new one I had bought online, and that's when I started having this problem.

I have no idea if there's been any recalls performed on this car. Theres been no work done on the transmission since Ive own the car, and the only work done on the center console area was i put a vinyl wrap over the wood grain a couple months ago, but haven't had any issues since doing it until now. I know that the wiring on the gear selector assembly does have problems from another 335i I had worked on a few years ago so Ill check and see what the wiring looks like when I get home.

Something that I didn't think about until yesterday, I was on a trip for business last month and a coworker left an unopened drink in the passenger side cup holder during the day, and it exploded from the heat of the day. I pulled the cupholders out to be able to remove the glove box for access and noticed that the liquid had ran onto the top of the cupholder which when mounted in place goes right up to the fuse panel. Im starting to think that these problems have come from that incident considering everything is pointing to the fuse panel in one way or another. Is that something that can be pulled from a parts car and replaced without needing to be coded, and if so based on the information we've determined so far, is there a chance that could be the only problem and that things like the CAS module are not completely toast?

As able as I am to fix many other problems with cars, I think I may be in over my head with this one and will probably have to send this one in to a specialist. At this point I don't know where else to look, and I don't have the right equipment to test it the way I need to so the best decision may be to take it to someone that can. I appreciate all the help, you seem to know a lot about these models, and based on your recommendation I think Ill need to look into getting the correct testing software to be able to better look into future issues.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by taylorchuck

... I pulled the KL30G relay to replace it with a new one I had bought online, and that's when I started having this problem... a coworker left an unopened drink in the passenger side cup holder during the day, and it exploded from the heat of the day. I pulled the cupholders out to be able to remove the glove box for access and noticed that the liquid had ran onto the top of the cupholder which when mounted in place goes right up to the fuse panel. Im starting to think that these problems have come from that incident...

Those two facts point to a potential issue with the JB sockets into which the IO1068 "30G" Relay is inserted. If you still have the original 30G relay (that was still working when you swapped in the replacement), inspect it for Terminal/Pin numbering, number of pins (4 or 5?), and any sign of corrosion or sticky residue on the pins. Do you recall any difficulty getting the pins out of the JB sockets?

I don't find a wiring diagram that identifies the Pin numbering or relative position, but there IS some standardization to automotive relays, which often have pin #s beside the pins/spades of the relay:
1) Pin #30 is Battery power, 12V+ when tested with DMM. Pin #30 is usually the ONE pin of 4 or 5 total pins which is PERPENDICULAR to the nearest edge of the relay case. All other pins are PARALLEL to nearest relay case edge. See link to example relay below.

2) Pins #85 & #86 are the pins that power the Electromagnet. One (usually 85) is chassis Ground (continuity to chassis ground), and the other is switched 12V+, in this case, via the Red wire at X11010/2 from CAS (switched by CAS Module. You might test for continuity between that socket and X11010/2, as THAT may be what is damaged since you reported voltage at X11010/2 but NO 30G activation.

3) Pin #87 is the Pin that carries B+ or battery power to the Accessories powered by 30G relay when the contacts close (Electromagnet is activated). Rather than remove the cover and mechanically close the contacts, if you simply apply a jumper wire (two male spades, one plugged into Battery Power Socket (pin #30), and other end of jumper into Pin 87 socket, you have "Jumpered" the relay, or applied battery power directly to Socket #87 that carries power to "Accessories".

4) I have never looked at my 30G relay, but if yours has 5 pins, Relays with 5 pins normally have pins 87 & 87a next to each other. In that case, 87a will have battery voltage when relay electromagnet is NOT activated, and 87 will have voltage when electromagnet IS activated (relay contacts CLOSED).

So what I would recommend is to (1) Remove 30G Relay, & (2) use a "Jumper" to connect Sockets #30 & #87, to simulate closed relay contacts, and see if Starter NOW Cranks (F22 has power and P/N signal received by CAS), and engine fires & runs (and Climate Control Panel Lights & functions). Gotta get 12V+ to 30G relay socket #87 to simulate proper relay activation & operation.

Here is an example of 4-pin relay switched by application of 12V+ to Pin 86:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/...1000_QL80_.jpg

Once again, the two electromagnet pins 85 & 86 are parallel to each other: ( | | ) on opposite sides of relay cube, and Pins #30 & #87 are perpendicular to each other: ( | -- ). It is those perpendicular sockets that you want to connect for test purposes. That won't "FIX" the issue, but it will at least define the issue.
George

[taylorchuck]

The relay has 4 pins, labeled 1, 2, 3, and 5. The pins 1 and 2 show to be the pins controlling the electromagnet and pins 3 and 5 are the pins supplying power to the accessories. If i understand correctly, pin 1 of the relay should have continuity to pin 2 of connector x11010 and show 12v+ when checked with a meter. And pin 2 of the relay should connect to ground to b able to power the magnet and send the power through to pin 5 from pin 3.

If I’m correct, when i have the key in place i should be getting 12v to pin 1 on the relay and ground should have continuity to pin 2 of the relay. I’m getting 12v to pin 1 of the relay but no continuity to ground on pin 2 of the relay. If I’m supposed to be getting ground to pin 2, is there another connection to ground i can check besides the connector in the fuse panel? Or is the pin connector in the fuse panel the place i should be looking first? I’m aware that there are some bad ground connections with braided wires under the car that some people have had to fix, and the only ground wire I’ve seen underneath was on the driver side by the transmission. I’m hoping the problem is something as simple as a a bad ground connection to this relay and that it can be fixed by tightening a pin terminal connection, but it doesn’t seem like that is the whole problem.

[taylorchuck]

Sorry for the delayed response. For anyone that has this problem, I fixed it by finding there was no continuity to ground on the relay causing the relay not to engage. I ran a wire to the body and connected it to the ground pin on the relay and everything worked fine. So Ill be replacing the fuse panel to fix the problem. Thanks for your help George

[lilkevE93]

So I am having the exact same issue as you except I ended up removing that relay and putting it right back in and then started having the exact same codes. What I’m curious about is how exactly you tested the relay with a ground, I want to test it before I go ahead and replace the fuse box!!