[doofus2]

I have some questions about the implications of this post:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=212

Here's an excerpt, the emphasis is mine:

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

<snip>

One of the great things, at least for me, that has come out of the recent threads is I have learned an enormous amount about Tuning both from Shiv, Terry, Scalbert and a lot of the members here, so I can finally apply some of what I have learned to discuss things

<snip>

The JB3 in conjunction with the factory ECU has the above along with a few other critical safety features. Like;
1) catalyst over temperature protection to prevent your cats from potentially melting during a high speed run
2) Cold start protection to limit boost when your engine oil is cold and thick.

There are benefits to better integration with the ECU. You tap into the millions of dollars of engineering BMW put into the design of safety systems.

My questions:

1. What, exactly, is the relationship between oil temperature and stock boost?
2. How is this relationship different under the current V3 demo maps?
3. How is this relationship different when running the JB3?

I can log these things, but it'll take me a couple of days (log under V3, let cool, log under JB3, let cool, log stock), but maybe Shiv and Mike can speak to what I should expect.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by doofus2

My questions:[*] What, exactly, is the relationship between oil temperature and stock boost?

When oil temp is cold, the ECU lowers the boost target. Most modern turbo cars do this.

[*] How is this relationship different under the current V3 demo maps?

No different. With the PROcede, the Wastegate DC out is a function of Wastegate DC in. In other words, it does not employ a stand-alone boost controller. This is why if the ECU induces a no-boost limp mode (where Wastegate DC in=0%), wastegate DCout from the PROcede is also 0%. Which means no-boost limp just like the factory ECU intended.

[*] How is this relationship different when running the JB3?

Judging from the design of the board (simple single output pull to ground), it behaves similarly in this respect.

I can log these things, but it'll take me a couple of days (log under V3, let cool, log under JB3, let cool, log stock), but maybe Shiv and Mike can speak to what I should expect.

Cold engine max boost pressure is probably not a great thing to test on your personal car. A rental maybe.

Shiv

[Ilma]

What really strikes me is that this cold temp boost protection seems to be built into the stock engines safety features.

Why is it being presented as a safety feature of the other tune unless they are trying to imply that this feature is somehow disabled by the way the Proceded operates???

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Ilma

What really strikes me is that this cold temp boost protection seems to be built into the stock engines safety features.

Why is it being presented as a safety feature of the other tune unless they are trying to imply that this feature is somehow disabled by the way the Proceded operates???

That's what I find very strange as well. And they have not just implied that the PROcede disables these safety features, they have come right out and said it. Basic FUD spreading. The manufacturer claim that the JB3 is somehow "better integrated" with the factory ECU is always something that I haven't been able to understand.

Shiv

[doofus2]

Thanks for the response, Shiv. More questions:

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

When oil temp is cold, the ECU lowers the boost target. Most modern turbo cars do this.

To what, exactly?

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No different. With the PROcede, the Wastegate DC out is a function of Wastegate DC in. In other words, it does not employ a stand-alone boost controller. This is why if the ECU induces a no-boost limp mode (where Wastegate DC in=0%), wastegate DCout from the PROcede is also 0%. Which means no-boost limp just like the factory ECU intended.

Judging from the design of the board (simple single output pull to ground), it behaves similarly in this respect.

What boost pressure should I expect to see, then, when the oil's cold under the V3, Stage0?

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Cold engine max boost pressure is probably not a great thing to test on your personal car. A rental maybe.

I'm pretty sure it's safe enough on a stock car, at least occasionally. My logic is that BMW has ensured that hard running in a cold car doesn't generate warranty work.

Are you saying it's not safe to try with my V3 or my JB3? Even though boost pressure is reduced when the oil's cold, that the tunes will likely both run the turbos too hard?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by doofus2

Thanks for the response, Shiv. More questions:
To what, exactly?

It will depend on how cold the oil/coolant temp is. Personally, I've never went WOT until my engine had at least some heat into it. Just something I've never done with any of the cars I've owned.

What boost pressure should I expect to see, then, when the oil's cold under the V3, Stage0?

When it is really cold, I suspect the ECU will allow for no boost. If that is the case, you will see no boost with the PROcede. As it warms up, the factory boost target will also rise. As will the boost target dictated by the PROcede which will be offset from stock. So yes, you will see higher boost with the PROcede when cold. But it will still be a function of the factory boost demand.

I'm pretty sure it's safe enough on a stock car, at least occasionally. My logic is that BMW has ensured that hard running in a cold car doesn't generate warranty work.

They can only really do so much to keep people from racing a cold engine. M-car actually lower the rev limit when cold and raise it as temp goes up. Then again, they rev to over 8000rpm.

Are you saying it's not safe to try with my V3 or my JB3? Even though boost pressure is reduced when the oil's cold, that the tunes will likely both run the turbos too hard?

I don't think your motor is going to fail by testing this. But it's certainly not going to be good for it. If it's something you have to do, go for it. Hopefully, you will get a no-boost limp mode when you try it with the Procede. It really is a nasty test to do with a cold engine.

Shiv

[rismo]

Hi shiv,

I asked this question in another thread also, but would it not be a nice feature on the procede to have a kind o M-style like rev limiter?

Even with the engine already providing a turbo limiter....

I think this should not be to harsh to implement as a user adjustable feature?

Two params:

A min temp param and a upper rev limit param

Which would make it possible to have the care run max x revs when the car's oil is not yet above temp y.

Although not sure you can manipulate the gear shifting on a AT car....

just my 2 cents. ;-)

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by doofus2

Thanks for the response, Shiv. More questions:



To what, exactly?



What boost pressure should I expect to see, then, when the oil's cold under the V3, Stage0?



I'm pretty sure it's safe enough on a stock car, at least occasionally. My logic is that BMW has ensured that hard running in a cold car doesn't generate warranty work.

Are you saying it's not safe to try with my V3 or my JB3? Even though boost pressure is reduced when the oil's cold, that the tunes will likely both run the turbos too hard?

give it a shot and get back to us.


Seriously though, dont do it, no point.

Your motor ->

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by rismo123

Hi shiv,

I asked this question in another thread also, but would it not be a nice feature on the procede to have a kind o M-style like rev limiter?

Even with the engine already providing a turbo limiter....

I think this should not be to harsh to implement as a user adjustable feature?

Two params:

A min temp param and a upper rev limit param

Which would make it possible to have the care run max x revs when the car's oil is not yet above temp y.

Although not sure you can manipulate the gear shifting on a AT car....

just my 2 cents. ;-)

Inducing a rev limit of some sort could be doable since we intercept the crank angle sensor. We could interrupt it and the engine shouldn't rev. However, this would induce a CAS code as well as a limp. So it's not going to be something that we can implement very easy. The real solution is just to let your car warm up first

Shiv

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

That's what I find very strange as well. And they have not just implied that the PROcede disables these safety features, they have come right out and said it.

And I had previously explained this too. Deaf ears or just a desire to ignore it.

[scalbert]

Plus, that is easy enough to test. In fact, I saw that with 0% DC and throttle at 100%, guess what DC out was?



Yep, 0%

[doofus2]

Thanks again for the response. Forgive me if I seem dense, but I still have questions.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It will depend on how cold the oil/coolant temp is.

<snip>

When it is really cold, I suspect the ECU will allow for no boost. If that is the case, you will see no boost with the PROcede. As it warms up, the factory boost target will also rise. As will the boost target dictated by the PROcede which will be offset from stock. So yes, you will see higher boost with the PROcede when cold. But it will still be a function of the factory boost demand.

Can you be more quantitative?

For example: "At oil temperatures less than XXX deg F, the stock ECU limits boost to XXpsi. This causes the PROCede to limit boost to XXpsi."

It sounds like you've never tested this, and you're (perhaps understandably) not inclined to do so. What worries me, though, is that the tunes may in fact run boost higher than the stock warm oil max boost on cold oil.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I don't think your motor is going to fail by testing this. But it's certainly not going to be good for it. If it's something you have to do, go for it. Hopefully, you will get a no-boost limp mode when you try it with the Procede.

In some non-logging, non-official testing on my V3, I've seen ~11psi only 2 blocks from my house on these 50 deg F ambient mornings. This was low-RPM testing, so I can't tell whether this is actually the maximum boost the V3 would have asked for had I done a 3rd-gear 40-100. I also can't tell whether the stock ECU would have been ok with max boost at that point, since I don't know the oil temp->boost limit function.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

It really is a nasty test to do with a cold engine.

Yes, I agree; which is why I'd hoped the tuners knew the answers...

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by doofus2

Thanks again for the response. Forgive me if I seem dense, but I still have questions.



Can you be more quantitative?

For example: "At oil temperatures less than XXX deg F, the stock ECU limits boost to XXpsi. This causes the PROCede to limit boost to XXpsi."

It sounds like you've never tested this, and you're (perhaps understandably) not inclined to do so. What worries me, though, is that the tunes may in fact run boost higher than the stock warm oil max boost on cold oil.



In some non-logging, non-official testing on my V3, I've seen ~11psi only 2 blocks from my house on these 50 def F ambient mornings. This was low-RPM testing, so I can't tell whether this is actually the maximum boost the V3 would have asked for had I done a 3rd-gear 40-100.



Yes, I agree; which is why I'd hoped the tuners knew the answers...

I really can't be quantitative with the actual boosts numbers since I don't have access to the pressure targets in the factory DME. But I can tell you exactly what we are doing and how we are doing it:

We are offsetting the boost target and the DC required to achieve that target. The offset amount % remains constant despite engine temp. So, in basic terms, you will see more boost than stock when your engine is cold. But not as much as you will see when your engine is fully warm. But in the case where boost target is 0 (ie, wastegate DC is 0%), the PROcede will run 0 boost. 0% times anything is 0%.

Shiv

[3X5PSI]

If you have a stock car, you could drive it out the garage & boost it.
Not such a great idea. Whatever boost the stock car allows, the tuned cars will allow that boost + X. So if the stock one boosts 7psi when cold, maybe the tuned ones will boost 11psi. Doesn't really matter. Running with no lube, it makes no difference if its 7 or 11psi. Hell, even 0psi is not good.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by 3X5PSI

If you have a stock car, you could drive it out the garage & boost it.
Not such a great idea. Whatever boost the stock car allows, the tuned cars will allow that boost + X. So if the stock one boosts 7psi when cold, maybe the tuned ones will boost 11psi. Doesn't really matter. Running with no lube, it makes no difference if its 7 or 11psi. Hell, even 0psi is not good.

+1. With one small correction. The extra boost that the tune induces is a scalar offset (%) based upon absolute pressure target (atmos plus boost). But same idea

Shiv

[doofus2]

Originally Posted by 3X5PSI

If you have a stock car, you could drive it out the garage & boost it.
Not such a great idea. Whatever boost the stock car allows, the tuned cars will allow that boost + X. So if the stock one boosts 7psi when cold, maybe the tuned ones will boost 11psi. Doesn't really matter. Running with no lube, it makes no difference if its 7 or 11psi. Hell, even 0psi is not good.

Ah, but BMW says 7psi on cold oil is ok. Obviously BMW would frown on 11psi at any oil temp, but even Shiv (correct me if I mis-interpreted you) frowns on 11psi on cold oil.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by doofus2

Ah, but BMW says 7psi on cold oil is ok. Obviously BMW would frown on 11psi at any oil temp, but even Shiv (correct me if I mis-interpreted you) frowns on 11psi on cold oil.

I'd frown upon any boost on a cold engine. As for 11psi, I think BMW would frown upon that even on a fully warmed up car.

Shiv

[rismo]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Inducing a rev limit of some sort could be doable since we intercept the crank angle sensor. We could interrupt it and the engine shouldn't rev. However, this would induce a CAS code as well as a limp. So it's not going to be something that we can implement very easy. The real solution is just to let your car warm up first

Shiv

Thanks for your response.

I know and I find myself pretty disciplined in not reving above 2,5k rpms when the engine is cold, but in a day to day car, you now and then hit the road and find out, that you started just a bit to enthiousiastic. :-)

But your explanation is very clear, anyway if you find yourself a free rainy sunday, and you are really out of new great ideas...

[cn555ic]

Why would anyone push their cars when it still cold, I know for myself, I always wait until the oil temps reach at least 160 before I even push it...For those who like to push it immediately from a cold start, then u need to change your ways of treating the car!!!

[rismo]

I think no one pushes his car her on the forum, but my personal experience is that sometimes, while phoning or whatever, you find yourself making 3 - 3,5 k reving for a moment, while I prefer to stay below the 2,5 before my car is heated up to 200 ...

also very usefull if a third person, son, wife drives the car.....

[doofus2]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Why would anyone push their cars when it still cold, I know for myself, I always wait until the oil temps reach at least 160 before I even push it...For those who like to push it immediately from a cold start, then u need to change your ways of treating the car!!!

I think we can all agree that 11psi on cold oil is probably bad for our turbo bearings, and that babying the car until the oil temp comes up is a "good thing", but I think you may be missing my point.

My point: both tuners have previously claimed or implied to preserve this safety feature of the stock programming. I'd like to understand how real these claims are.

JB3 claim post:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=212

V3 implication post:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=214

The responses from Shiv in this thread lead me to conclude that this safety feature is somewhat compromised in the current V3.

We haven't heard from the JB3 folks yet.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by doofus2

We haven't heard from the JB3 folks yet.

Don't you have one? Stick it in and give it a shot. BTW, I've received three PMs from JB3 users confirming that they still see over 10psi when the car is cold, 15 when it is up to temp. Which is expected based upon the boost control strategy used by all these tunes. Without some sort of oil/water temp input going into the piggyback, there is no way to limit boost to stock level. All one can do is preserve the % boost reduction employed by the factory computer. But if we are doubling boost, the reduced boost level with a cold engine is also doubled.

Shiv