[satakal]

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171141

When throttle oversteering out of a corner, how do you catch that slide super fast? I hope the answer isn't "ease off the throttle".

So, this weekend was the SD autocross. Lots of fun. My instructor suggested I suck it up and learn to drive with no nannies. So, I spun, and spun, and spun. It was great but I got a lot a dirt in the car. My 2nd and 3rd sessions, I got a handle on tire pressure and felt much more planted. But, goodness! The n54 breaks traction whenever it wants. With the traction control off, I saw full throttle on just a few ocassions.

I picked up a bad habbit with all this sliding and I need to be talked out of it asap. Here's what I found myself doing about 8x a lap. Exit a corner and respectfully squeeze the throttle. That got the back end to step out a little. My response was to either keep the same part throttle position or ease off just a little while dialing in some opposite lock. Frequently, the amount of throttle I applied led to a tank slapper. My bad habit is when the car snaps to the opposite direction I let go of the wheel while the steering finds center then I grab it when it feels right. This takes the tinyest fraction of a second. I had excellent success with this technique. But, talk me out of it please.

[leftcoastman]

Wow, I never found that the 335i stepped out at the slightest provocation....except when I tried running thicker anti-sways.

What is your setup? I definitely do not get power oversteer unless I'm monkeying the throttle.

Regarding recovering, I would ever-so-slightly breathe off the throttle and opposite lock, as you did. The trick, however, is to know when the rear catches and instantly straighten the wheel back up. You literally have a fraction of a second to do it. Otherwise, as you often see, the car will shoot in the opposite direction.

If you're going to lose it...and there is no way to catch it....both feet in! That will cause the car to slide gracefully to a stop. Otherwise, you might go 45-60 degrees sideways and then shoot towards the inner wall (talking track here). Hope that helps.

[satakal]

I know how instructors say "do all your braking in a straight line." But, this weekend, on the slippery / dirty parking lot I felt like my instructor was gonna tell me, "do all your accelleration in a straight line too." The lot where the Chargers play hasn't seen rain for months. Its filthy.

Earlier in the day, I was keeping hands on the wheel at all time. My ability to know when the rear was gonna catch wasn't sufficient. The timing between me moving the wheel back to 12 and the vehicle dynamics being ready for that were never in sync. I spun many times. Gnarly tank slappers that ended in spins. Fun!

End of the day, I allowed the car to tell me when it was ready to go straight. I let the car straighten up, then I just caught the wheel. I have no idea how I knew when to catch the wheel, but it worked great. I would prefer to not have to catch a tank slapper. I'd rather correct the power oversteer and go about my lap.

[nicknaz]

OP, perhaps you are not applying enough opposite lock soon enough, and then not unwinding the steering lock soon enough after the car settles

Also, I'd try to recover with the throttle kept in the same position throughout. I would not lift in an oversteer situation, and I would consider adding slightly more throttle if there was more traction available. I think being on the throttle settles the machine down and lifting the throttle makes thing worse.

Lastly, I think you think you are rolling on the throttle gently but really you might be giving much more than is appropriate. 300ftlb torque is a lot in a one wheel drive car on street tires

[iheartsole]

hahaa

[satakal]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

OP, perhaps you are not applying enough opposite lock soon enough, and then not unwinding the steering lock soon enough after the car settles

Also, I'd try to recover with the throttle kept in the same position throughout. I would not lift in an oversteer situation, and I would consider adding slightly more throttle if there was more traction available. I think being on the throttle settles the machine down and lifting the throttle makes thing worse.

Lastly, I think you think you are rolling on the throttle gently but really you might be giving much more than is appropriate. 300ftlb torque is a lot in a one wheel drive car on street tires

Would you please tell me more about when (how much) to apply opposite lock? I know I'm not unwinding soon enough. And, I'm sure you're right in stating that I think I'm more smooth with throttle application than I really am.

[leftcoastman]

POWER oversteer is a tough one with respect to easing off the throttle. I surmise if you're hammering it and losing all traction, keeping on the throttle will not aid in recovery.

What I've done is a VERY VERY VERY slight breathe. It is correct that if you lift hard, you are dead, but a light breathe will slow down the spinning wheel and help you get back in line.

Part of the reason why I think Auto-X and Track are so different is that Auto-X is so much more violent. Whenever I get a student who is an Auto-X king, it's like he thinks the turn-in requires the same "yank" on the steering wheel as if he was going through offsets in a parking lot. Same applies to throttle inputs.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by satakal

Would you please tell me more about when (how much) to apply opposite lock? I know I'm not unwinding soon enough. And, I'm sure you're right in stating that I think I'm more smooth with throttle application than I really am.

I think the amount of opposite lock depends on when you start applying the opposite lock. You can tell when the rear end is starting to add yaw too quickly (ie about to spin) and if you countersteer immediately you don't have to apply much opposite lock. if you wait until the tail is way out you have to apply huge opposite lock. in either case like others have said before you can feel when the rear end stops adding yaw in response to your steering input. at that point you unwind and bring the steering back to where you want the car to go

[satakal]

this is one of those subjects where words fail. Either the student gets it or he doesn't. I'm not getting it. Not because of poor explaination, but because I don't know enough for the concepts to be tangible.

The guy who designed the course that day summed up autox as "one continuous controlled spin." I clearly have lots to learn and I'll keep on attending autox events. Seat time, seat time, seat time.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by satakal

keep on attending autox events.

Personally, I think if you want to get better at driving on a track, go to DEs.

Also if you can try to get a ride in a well driven WRX/STi. I found it much more obvious in my WRX when the car was going to oversteer compared to my E90. the WRX had more body movement so the weight shifts were really obvious

[satakal]

very cool. I want to make a Golden Gate chapter event before the year is up. Hopefully, if/when I do, you can school me in person.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by satakal

very cool. I want to make a Golden Gate chapter event before the year is up. Hopefully, if/when I do, you can school me in person.

'school' is way way too strong a word sears point nov8-9 is the next one i'll be at

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by satakal

very cool. I want to make a Golden Gate chapter event before the year is up. Hopefully, if/when I do, you can school me in person.

Are you going to the LA Auto cross this weekend? And the LA Driving School the weekend after? Maybe I'll see you there. I was at the SD autocross and ran in class D.

[sayemthree]

slight lift
counter steer
back on the gas
never romove hands from the wheel

[satakal]

Originally Posted by sambonator

Are you going to the LA Auto cross this weekend? And the LA Driving School the weekend after? Maybe I'll see you there. I was at the SD autocross and ran in class D.

Are you the guy with the hood and expensive wheels?

I was at the SD autocross on sunday.

Saturday, I'm with SpeedVentures at Fontana.

Sunday, I want to go to TJ to watch the guys from JMC race in the Tijuana Grand Prix.

The following weekend, the 2 day HPDE with the LA chapter.

[sambonator]

The wheels weren't that expensive... I got them used for $1000 with R compound tires already mounted . The hood was also 2nd hand, got it for like 1/2 price from WalkedU...come to think of it, just about everything I have on my car is 2nd hand!

I kept getting limp mode and low power during my runs... figured out I had a loose vacuum hose after my runs were done.

I will see you at the BMW LA Driving School on Sunday 9/28. Saturday I'll take the car control clinic. I was working the course during your runs at Qualcomm Stadium... I assume you were the space gray? 335i that kept sliding out the rear end . Fun stuff! Is your car steptronic or manual?

Sam

Originally Posted by satakal

Are you the guy with the hood and expensive wheels?

I was at the SD autocross on sunday.

Saturday, I'm with SpeedVentures at Fontana.

Sunday, I want to go to TJ to watch the guys from JMC race in the Tijuana Grand Prix.

The following weekend, the 2 day HPDE with the LA chapter.

[satakal]

:-) Check the link in the first post. I'm the Monaco Blue manual on black kosei's that spun every lap in my Blue group. Then, when I was running in "C", I was drifting every corner. Not on purpose.

This is you in July? Your car sounds so ill!

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[sambonator]

Originally Posted by satakal

:-) Check the link in the first post. I'm the Monaco Blue manual on black kosei's that spun every lap in my Blue group. Then, when I was running in "C", I was drifting every corner. Not on purpose.

This is you in July? Your car sounds so ill!

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two

Yeah that's me! Before I spray painted the black carbon hood vents silver. The exhaust system was a freebie from Terry (of JB2/JB3 fame)...its a stock exhaust system with 2ndary cat delete and resonator delete... with cutouts I can open up just before the mufflers. I used to open them up but it was just too loud and I couldn't hear anything including what the tires were doing. Its good for the drag strip... and terrorizing the neighborhood . Anyway, with the cutouts closed, it sounds very farty (like in the video)... I call it Terry's fart exhaust !

Your car looks almost black in the pictures! I don't recall you drifting too much... I was working the section just after the slalom.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by satakal

spun every lap

let me know if you are coming to Norcal days so i can be sure to give you a TON of room if we are on track together....

[satakal]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

let me know if you are coming to Norcal days so i can be sure to give you a TON of room if we are on track together....

Oh no, now I have a bad rep. The first lap out, the instructor nearly spun. So, I was just following his lead. Tires pressures and temps were all wrong my first 4 sessions. From there, I kept it sideways instead of backwards.

On track, I listen to the yellow shirt guys. I leave all the nannies all the way. But yeah, give me room. I need it.

[2e9x's]

FYI...Cal Speedway is NOT a good place to practice power oversteer. Too many walls.

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by 2e9x's

FYI...Cal Speedway is NOT a good place to practice power oversteer. Too many walls.

I'll have my car set up for understeer