[movietub]

Granted we have only the specs for the 330i and 320's so far... But the power and 0-60 etc are all more or less identical to the F30 equivalents.

I leased a F31 330D just after it's launch and I remember at that time these forums were buzzing because the F30's stats across the range were extremely impressive. It was a big jump.

I hope there will be a jump when we see the 340D specs, but right now the specs of the G20 range we can see, show basically no improvement at all.

Leaves me wondering if combustion engine development is now effectively over at BMW, with the focus on hybrid/electric etc. Would make sense as the current engines are already market leading and in 11 years time the sale of combustion engines in Germany itself will be banned anyway.

Bit sad though. I remember when I first saw the F31 330D specs and my jaw dropping a little when I realised it was a car just about as quick off the mark as an entry level 911

For comparison the F31 330D from 2012 hits 62 in 5.6 seconds. The brand new G20 330i takes 5.8 seconds.

The new 320D's are virtually identical in power, performance and mpg to the F previous generation too.

I think we won't see any real performance improvement until they reveal their hybrid/electric 3 series stats.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by movietub

Leaves me wondering if combustion engine development is now effectively over at BMW, with the focus on hybrid/electric etc. Would make sense as the current engines are already market leading and in 11 years time the sale of combustion engines in Germany itself will be banned anyway.

Could well be.

Increases in power and torque will be offset by taller gearing in the quest for more range/economy. This is what drives BMW's development, not 0-60 dead-straight stoplight performance. The new 330i has nearly 50 more lb-ft than the old, and I will place money on the gearing being even taller, and the economy that much better. Family sedans are not routinely tapped out to 7 grand in city traffic or sub-urban roads, going from 0-60 mpg in 5 or 6 sec. There are almost no opportunities to exercise the performance on the public highway, except for a few folk in unpopulated parts of the new world.

There is no need for sub 5-sec 0-60 times, outside a small group of often self-absorbed enthusiasts, but there is a need for economy everywhere - this is the key difference, now that a typical family car has enough power to go at least twice the posted limit of practically any country in the world.

[movietub]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Could well be.

Increases in power and torque will be offset by taller gearing in the quest for more range/economy. This is what drives BMW's development, not 0-60 dead-straight stoplight performance. The new 330i has nearly 50 more lb-ft than the old, and I will place money on the gearing being even taller, and the economy that much better. Family sedans are not routinely tapped out to 7 grand in city traffic or sub-urban roads, going from 0-60 mpg in 5 or 6 sec. There are almost no opportunities to exercise the performance on the public highway, except for a few folk in unpopulated parts of the new world.

There is no need for sub 5-sec 0-60 times, outside a small group of often self-absorbed enthusiasts, but there is a need for economy everywhere - this is the key difference, now that a typical family car has enough power to go at least twice the posted limit of practically any country in the world.

I do agree with most of the above. But it's also true that a sizeable part of the market, and certainly a significant part of BMW's driver base, do care about performance.

And yes, actually doing a balls to the wall flat out dash to 62mph whilst clinging onto a stopwatch doesn't happen very often!! But the 0-62 time is still a good universal measure for how punchy a car will feel. I, for example, enjoy the shove in the back I get each and every time I put my foot down. Mostly just for overtaking when a b-road opens up. It also makes it dead easy to match the speed of traffic when joining a motorway/dual carriageway. So I think there actually are daily opportunities to feel and benefit from the power. Also, it's just nice imo to know the car you have is capable.

I've had my most recent 430D for a couple of weeks now and only made an effort to find a quiet enough road for some 'fun' a couple of times. I accept that the other 95% of the time it may as well be a 420... But we can't kid ourselves here, people buy BMW's in part because of the on paper stats. So I am a little surprised to see no tangible jump in the figures in this latest generation.

As I said, it could all change when they unveil their electric part of the range. If they follow what Jaguar have done with the i-pace, it will be a significant jump forwards.

[xlover]

Originally Posted by movietub

Granted we have only the specs for the 330i and 320's so far... But the power and 0-60 etc are all more or less identical to the F30 equivalents.

I leased a F31 330D just after it's launch and I remember at that time these forums were buzzing because the F30's stats across the range were extremely impressive. It was a big jump.

I hope there will be a jump when we see the 340D specs, but right now the specs of the G20 range we can see, show basically no improvement at all.

Leaves me wondering if combustion engine development is now effectively over at BMW, with the focus on hybrid/electric etc. Would make sense as the current engines are already market leading and in 11 years time the sale of combustion engines in Germany itself will be banned anyway.

Bit sad though. I remember when I first saw the F31 330D specs and my jaw dropping a little when I realised it was a car just about as quick off the mark as an entry level 911

For comparison the F31 330D from 2012 hits 62 in 5.6 seconds. The brand new G20 330i takes 5.8 seconds.

The new 320D's are virtually identical in power, performance and mpg to the F previous generation too.

I think we won't see any real performance improvement until they reveal their hybrid/electric 3 series stats.

The major flaw here is you are using bmws quoted numbers for the g20 which are always conservative and designed to round out a marketing release. Why not wait for real world testing..... then make an evaluation...

[movietub]

Originally Posted by xlover

The major flaw here is you are using bmws quoted numbers for the g20 which are always conservative and designed to round out a marketing release. Why not wait for real world testing..... then make an evaluation...

Because I'm also using BMW's numbers for the previous generation haha! It's still relative.

I know they will underplay some cars true performance to make a case for buying the higher output model. I remember, I think Autocar, doing a real world 0-60 test on a 330D tourer with a full tank and two occupants and it still comfortably beat its rated time.

[225]

They could easily make the likes of a 320d alot more powerful but it would encroach into 330d sales and also the headline of a new car now is how much emissions have reduced as opposed to performance these days.

I am surprised though they didn't tweak the 320 lump up a little to say 200bhp as I doubt it would make much difference to emissions. It would be a little bump in performance and differentiate it from the VAG 190tdi engine mob for example as well.

[movietub]

Originally Posted by 225

They could easily make the likes of a 320d alot more powerful but it would encroach into 330d sales and also the headline of a new car now is how much emissions have reduced as opposed to performance these days.

I am surprised though they didn't tweak the 320 lump up a little to say 200bhp as I doubt it would make much difference to emissions. It would be a little bump in performance and differentiate it from the VAG 190tdi engine mob for example as well.

They must have considered that, but perhaps as you say, they were keener on emissions and the power tweak would have cancelled out a relative emissions improvement.

What's interesting, and a little sad perhaps - is that the current generation of BMW six cylinder diesels probably represent a technology that will be about as good as it will ever get. Developing anything major right now in the diesel world is very unrewarding, the bad press and taxation of diesel has seen to that. And even if that were to change in the future, internal combustion engines themselves are being phased out in just 11 years in Germany, and the rest of Europe not far behind.

It's sad because diesel makes a great deal of sense in many ways. And BMW's inline six cylinder oil burners are the finest, bar none. No other competitors engine that I have ever driven has an equal combination of smoothness, sound and response. Stick a 330/335D into manual and it will not just rev to 5000rpm, it will pull to 5000rpm. Other engines are stronger in perhaps one area, but not as good overall. I never expected to actually enjoy the sound of a diesel! But in the 330D it sounds good at higher revs, because what you can hear is an inline six. Irrespective of what it's running on. Weirdly they chose to hide that noise in the 335D with artificial 'enhancement'.

My business partner has a Jag with the 3l V6 diesel unit, it's not the same at all

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by movietub

Mostly just for overtaking when a b-road opens up. It also makes it dead easy to match the speed of traffic when joining a motorway/dual carriageway.

Possibly but I think the only cars I've ever seen obviously floored and with a lot of power to join a motorway excessively fast are higher-end German sedans. Everyone else, with less power and aggression, manages just fine, and they aren't the ones causing accidents...!

I guess my point was that MOAR power is just not the main driver. Yes, people do buy on power ratings and 0-60 for the pub, but it hits them in the wallet most. For every one enthusiast on here, there are 10 user-choosers mindful of economy. Looking at the F30 figures vs the G20, the claimed fuel economy - post-adjustment for whatever it is that Yurrup calls its new test regime - is around 10% better.

[DaveH28]

Something to note on the 6cyl engines,
The f series still has he n57 engine whereas the 4cyls were all updated to b series when the 3 series was lci'd

So I expect the 330d and 340d will now the the b57 like the 5 series and 7 series, more power and torque

[movietub]

Originally Posted by DaveH28

Something to note on the 6cyl engines,
The f series still has he n57 engine whereas the 4cyls were all updated to b series when the 3 series was lci'd

So I expect the 330d and 340d will now the the b57 like the 5 series and 7 series, more power and torque

The B57D30O0 has only the same power figures of the N57 equivalent already in the F series sadly. And according to wikipedia, that's what the G20 330D will get. And I'm pretty sure the 340D will end up with the current 335D equivalent B series engine, so also no power jump.

The really exciting engine is the 394hp lump they sling in the M550D and M50D X5.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_B57

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by movietub

The B57D30O0 has only the same power figures of the N57 equivalent already in the F series sadly. And according to wikipedia, that's what the G20 330D will get. And I'm pretty sure the 340D will end up with the current 335D equivalent B series engine, so also no power jump.

The really exciting engine is the 394hp lump they sling in the M550D and M50D X5.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_B57

From my reading there is an increase in power output for the B57 (as in the G30 530d) and going into the G20 330d, up by 5kW (to 195kW) and 20Nm (to 580Nm) compared to the N57 in the F30.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by movietub

And I'm pretty sure the 340D will end up with the current 335D equivalent B series engine, so also no power jump.

Why are you suggesting that, when the current B57 powered 540d has an increased output over the N57 335d engine, up 5kW and 50Nm.

[movietub]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

From my reading there is an increase in power output for the B57 (as in the G30 530d) and going into the G20 330d, up by 5kW (to 195kW) and 20Nm (to 580Nm) compared to the N57 in the F30.

Ok, a tiny increase. But it's pretty much the same output for the version of the B series engine compared to the N series.

I doubt you would notice on the road and the on paper stat increases hardly make for bragging rights.

It's just a very gentle evolution in their engine design, probably driven by regulation changes more than to seek extra power. Still, fair enough - every little helps!

I would love to see one of the more powerful 400hp 3.0 diesel sixes in the 3 or 4 series, but I'm sure it'll never happen as it would seriously undermine the M3. Also, very few people that would accept a diesel really want more power than the current 335D and soon to be 340D.

I just can't see there being anymore significant performance increases in their traditional internal combustion ranges. In development terms, they have already run out of time with the looming bans coming up.

[Fuller]

The m340i with the b58 will supposedly be around 385hp. That's a 3 series with nearly 400 hp. I'd have to imagine that'll lead to a substantial increase in performance. If I remember correctly the 4 cylinder model (330i) will see an increase in torque, but not as much an increase in hp. If you want a big jump in straight line speed and power, you'll have to go for the m340. If you don't think you need what the m340i offers, or don't think it's worth it, go for the 330i.

At some point it becomes difficult to offer improved fuel efficiency, for no, or minimal cost increase, plus huge increases in performance specs. If you want and value noticeably increased performance, you'll have to go for the m340. You can't expect to have it all.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by movietub

Ok, a tiny increase. But it's pretty much the same output for the version of the B series engine compared to the N series.

We must put that in the context of less vehicle weight, (up to 55kgs shaved off) and improved drag co-efficient in the G20. Power to weight ratio is more important than just viewing engine outputs in isolation.

[movietub]

Originally Posted by Fuller

The m340i with the b58 will supposedly be around 385hp. That's a 3 series with nearly 400 hp. I'd have to imagine that'll lead to a substantial increase in performance. If I remember correctly the 4 cylinder model (330i) will see an increase in torque, but not as much an increase in hp. If you want a big jump in straight line speed and power, you'll have to go for the m340. If you don't think you need what the m340i offers, or don't think it's worth it, go for the 330i.

At some point it becomes difficult to offer improved fuel efficiency, for no, or minimal cost increase, plus huge increases in performance specs. If you want and value noticeably increased performance, you'll have to go for the m340. You can't expect to have it all.

An M340D could just about offer it all if they were to use the version of the B series engine that produces 400hp and 560 ib of torque.

Can't see it happening for numerous reasons at this stage though.

I totally agree that BMW are likely already at the point at which further development gains are limited. I don't expect them to significantly improve any of their IC power units going forward.

I do expect that as they move towards fully electric power units, we will start to see more hybrids in the range along the way. That is probably the most likely way noticeable performance and economy gains can be found.

[movietub]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

We must put that in the context of less vehicle weight, (up to 55kgs shaved off) and improved drag co-efficient in the G20. Power to weight ratio is more important than just viewing engine outputs in isolation.

Good point.

[insanecoder]

The flag bearer in the G20 is obviously the M340i for the enthusiasts
The 330 and below will cater to the rest
and whilst even the 4 pot in the 330 achieves more than enough speed on the streets legally
within confines of lawful speeds, its about the acceleration to the legal speed limit
and the B58 delivers

[movietub]

Originally Posted by insanecoder

The flag bearer in the G20 is obviously the M340i for the enthusiasts
The 330 and below will cater to the rest
and whilst even the 4 pot in the 330 achieves more than enough speed on the streets legally
within confines of lawful speeds, its about the acceleration to the legal speed limit
and the B58 delivers

I never speed, other than if I genuinely miss a 40 zone becoming a 30 zone etc (This is the mature me speaking, as a kid I drove far too fast..). It's all about acceleration for me, I like the surge. Also a comfortable amount of power makes a car feel lighter, more responsive - it's not defeated by it's own weight. I like that.

And the new 330i will have it all, I see the specs. But it's a 4 pot... So it's not going to have the sound or feel of the straight six. In a beemer that is a disappointment. I know it's really just a 'new 328' but, I was quite sad last time round when I learned the 328 was now a 2l 4 pot too!

All seems a little disingenuous...

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by insanecoder

The flag bearer in the G20 is obviously the M340i for the enthusiasts
The 330 and below will cater to the rest
and whilst even the 4 pot in the 330 achieves more than enough speed on the streets legally
within confines of lawful speeds

You're right - even the 330i is capable of going 70 mph.

, its about the acceleration to the legal speed limit
and the B58 delivers

5.0 vs 5.8 sec. Crucial in today's grid-based stoplight-to-stoplight urban grid system . Meanwhile this is what it looks like where I drive; 0-5 mph is more important...

[movietub]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

You're right - even the 330i is capable of going 70 mph.

5.0 vs 5.8 sec. Crucial in today's grid-based stoplight-to-stoplight urban grid system . Meanwhile this is what it looks like where I drive; 0-5 mph is more important...

We don't all live in the smog

Out here in hilly Lincolnshire there are some decent roads.

I work in London a lot though. If I lived there, I would not bother with a car. I'd go find other outlets for whatever it is that makes me care about having a nice car.

All performance is a nonsense if you look at it with sensible specs on. We might as well all drive practical estate cars with 1l 3 cylinder engines. But... does a car that can hit 60 in 5 seconds feel nicer in my hands than one that takes 7 seconds? Yes, yes it does.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by movietub

We don't all live in the smog

Out here in hilly Lincolnshire there are some decent roads.

I work in London a lot though. If I lived there, I would not bother with a car. I'd go find other outlets for whatever it is that makes me care about having a nice car.

All performance is a nonsense if you look at it with sensible specs on. We might as well all drive practical estate cars with 1l 3 cylinder engines. But... does a car that can hit 60 in 5 seconds feel nicer in my hands than one that takes 7 seconds? Yes, yes it does.

It does for me too - but the question was "why no more power/speed for the next generation?" and my answer - trite as it is - is that it's becoming less important for the places where BMW sells cars. Future sales are in clogged-up cities in the East, where they need space and grace as much as pace (to ruin a phrase), and in countries where fuel is more expensive than ever and the competition for economy is intense.

Also the global sales figures for the 3 and 5 series look pretty alarming. They're one-third of what they were at peak. I said in another post somewhere that the G20 may well be the last 3 series BMW makes, and in future we (at least, those of us where private car ownership is possible) will be driving BMW crossovers with hybrid or fully-electric technology.