Bimmerpost
3
/
4 Series
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Technical Topics iDrive, Nav, Phone, Audio, Video, Cameras, Electronics Harman Kardon wattage decreased from the F30 to the G20

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-02-2018, 07:58 PM   #1
nick776
Private First Class
77
Rep
169
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Montgomery, AL

iTrader: (0)

Harman Kardon wattage decreased from the F30 to the G20

Did anyone else notice that the wattage on the H/K system DECREASED compared to the outgoing model. Did BMW give an explanation for that?

Update 1/28:
I started this thread awhile back about the H/K Downgrade to 464 Watts as per the initial press release. Now, I am in the process of ordering my G20 and notice that the BMW USA website actually says the H/K system only has 360 watts and only 12 speakers (as opposed to 16). Have they downgraded it yet AGAIN?

Are there any BMW NA reps on here who can comment? My SA does not know which is accurate.
Appreciate 1
Ramos857.00
      10-02-2018, 10:46 PM   #2
2015M4inCT
Private First Class
96
Rep
199
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

Saved weight on the speaker magnets
Appreciate 1
N26Ghost496.50
      10-04-2018, 02:24 PM   #3
TW666
Private
34
Rep
52
Posts

Drives: 435d M Sport+ LCI
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: North Hampshire UK

iTrader: (0)

Yes I noticed that, I assumed it was a typo as they still quoted 16 Speakers. I doubt they would drop output, the top spec stereo in the latest Ford Fiesta is 600w (but less Speakers).
Appreciate 0
      10-08-2018, 06:20 PM   #4
jlin101
First Lieutenant
107
Rep
398
Posts

Drives: 2018 X3 M40i, 2016 750i
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

It's either a new HK system, or HK changed amp configuration/rating. At least it's more than the upgraded HK system ($875) with only 360W/12 speakers in either the new X5 or Z4!

Last edited by jlin101; 10-08-2018 at 06:35 PM..
Appreciate 0
      10-08-2018, 06:29 PM   #5
upsidedownfunnel
Colonel
United_States
1996
Rep
2,499
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2014 BMW 335i  [0.00]
I wouldn't worry too much about power ratings. In the audio world, those are all considered to be marketing B.S.
Appreciate 6
N26Ghost496.50
EvenKeel418.00
Wills28618.00
mbfanos54.50
      10-09-2018, 08:31 AM   #6
320iG20
Stick Shift ftw ;)
320iG20's Avatar
Germany
19
Rep
50
Posts

Drives: 320i
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

And *fingers crossed* as the Professional System now even has a center speaker (10 speakers, 205 watt overall) the H/K (16 speakers, 464 watt, noise cancelling) might even sound better than before... But unfortunately it's linked to the digital display and I prefer the classic round ones. :/
Appreciate 1
N26Ghost496.50
      10-10-2018, 01:55 PM   #7
Sandpiper
First Lieutenant
120
Rep
312
Posts

Drives: 2023 M340i xDrive
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: NC

iTrader: (0)

To add do that I'll give you an example. The Home-theater-in-a-box (HTIBs) that they sell at stores from brands like Samsung, Vizio, etc. Their wattage rating is based of off 4ohms, where as standalone speakers are rated based on 8ohms. So 1000W @ 4ohms is technically 500W @ 8ohms. So wattage alone doesn't help to know how good the speakers are.
Appreciate 1
      10-11-2018, 07:14 AM   #8
Psycho
Private First Class
13
Rep
112
Posts

Drives: ex-'12 X6M, waiting on ?
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Texas

iTrader: (0)

Cost cutting, pure and simple. They’re doing this same crap with the new X5 and even the 2019 i8 coupe. What makes it more offensive is the fact that you’re paying extra to get less.
Appreciate 0
      10-11-2018, 09:56 AM   #9
bimmer456
Major General
2940
Rep
5,983
Posts

Drives: 340i
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA

iTrader: (0)

I though it was higher on US spec models. Sometimes if the speakers are more sensitive it can be lower power and sound better/louder like the jbl systems in Toyota's. I pay more attention to 0-60 which is slower on the 330i
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2018, 03:28 PM   #10
Dog Face Pony Soldier
2006 TIME Person Of The Year
Dog Face Pony Soldier's Avatar
United_States
9720
Rep
6,445
Posts

Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [9.74]
Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about power ratings. In the audio world, those are all considered to be marketing B.S.
Let's first establish that power is an important variable in an audio system, just like power is an important variable in countless other things like engines, lasers, cranes, etc..

We would like to assume a manufacturer is specifying two different products they make using the same measurement techniques. I do admit there is some skepticism at times... Especially among speaker manufacturers claiming nice even improvements in say- sensitivity ratings as you move up their product lineups (or sizes), but this skepticism derives from favorable ratings; not unfavorable ones like an amplifier having less power.

It is also very fair to argue that a different car; with different components, and a different design, might very well perform just as well with less power. You might think of this hypothetical as similar a vehicle retaining the same power to weight ratio despite having less power.

If all this wasn't vague enough... There is a very real argument an engineer would make, that (everything else remaining equal) it takes large amounts of power differences before they're audible. I'm not a big subscriber to this theory, but it does need to be respected.

In summation... The amp likely does have less power... and more power may have been better... but it probably doesn't make a meaningful real-world difference.

As someone who knows how these systems are designed, and even has contacts in their phone of people designing these systems... My experienced prediction is the G20 system probably at least meets the same performance metrics as the F30 system. Even if it does have a slightly less-powerful amplifier.

I have the HK in my F30 and I'm not seeking more power, as much as I want smoother frequency response and better linearity.
__________________
Appreciate 1
      10-26-2018, 04:33 PM   #11
jlin101
First Lieutenant
107
Rep
398
Posts

Drives: 2018 X3 M40i, 2016 750i
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

the other thing worth mentioning is that you have to double the power to get a increase of 3 db. Assuming the speakers used in F30 and G20 are equivalent, going from 600w to 464w would lose at most 2 db. I would venture to guess that the new model is much quieter, which means there's no need to crank up the volume as much to overcome the cabin noise.
Appreciate 0
      10-26-2018, 05:21 PM   #12
Dog Face Pony Soldier
2006 TIME Person Of The Year
Dog Face Pony Soldier's Avatar
United_States
9720
Rep
6,445
Posts

Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [9.74]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlin101 View Post
the other thing worth mentioning is that you have to double the power to get a increase of 3 db. Assuming the speakers used in F30 and G20 are equivalent, going from 600w to 464w would lose at most 2 db.
Yea, everything else being equal (and it surely isn't), we're talking about -1.12 dB. Not going to be audible in a moving car.

Has BMW quoted any improvements in G20 cabin noise during travel? All we need is say -2 dB at speed for this to really be a non-issue.
__________________
Appreciate 1
drexplode1763.50
      10-27-2018, 10:22 AM   #13
ScottAndrew
Banned
374
Rep
520
Posts

Drives: BMW 230i
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Hampshire

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Yea, everything else being equal (and it surely isn't), we're talking about -1.12 dB. Not going to be audible in a moving car.

Has BMW quoted any improvements in G20 cabin noise during travel? All we need is say -2 dB at speed for this to really be a non-issue.
I want MOAR. More POWOAR, more WATS. MOAR. It ain’t shit if it isn’t MOAR. Quality, balance? Fuck that. MOAR!!!
Appreciate 0
      10-28-2018, 07:48 PM   #14
EvenKeel
Captain
418
Rep
886
Posts

Drives: Sedan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about power ratings. In the audio world, those are all considered to be marketing B.S.
^^^ This
Appreciate 0
      10-29-2018, 12:44 PM   #15
Dog Face Pony Soldier
2006 TIME Person Of The Year
Dog Face Pony Soldier's Avatar
United_States
9720
Rep
6,445
Posts

Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [9.74]
I guess I'm taking issue with the statement that power ratings "are all considered to be marketing B.S.."

This is a misconception and just simply isn't true.

I can confirm that the audio engineering company that designed the audio system in the arena or stadium near your home would wholeheartedly push back on this statement. Just like a structural engineer would push back at the notion that a steel beam's specifications are "are all considered marketing BS." Professionals are designing complex systems around amplifiers and need to have accurate specifications to design them properly.

While the soundbar+subwoofer combo you bought at BestBuy last Black Friday likely has inflated specifications; it would be wrong to let this very small perspective impact anyone's judgement so greatly to conclude that ALL power ratings are marketing BS.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2018, 01:07 AM   #16
upsidedownfunnel
Colonel
United_States
1996
Rep
2,499
Posts

Drives: 2014 335i
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2014 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I guess I'm taking issue with the statement that power ratings "are all considered to be marketing B.S.."

This is a misconception and just simply isn't true.

....
First off, if a speaker is more efficient, it can be louder with fewer watts assuming it is being powered by the same amplifier. If a particular driver (basic component of a speaker) has an efficiency rating of 85dB, it will be louder than a driver with an efficiency rating of 82dB with the same exact amount of power (Watts) being fed to it.

And power ratings? They are B.S. because there is no consistent measurement of how these power ratings are measured. An amplifier that's rated at 25 Wpc can easily sound better at higher volumes than an amplifier that's rated at 200 Wpc. Some really cheap amplifiers rate their power ratings based on peak power which is 100% useless - these are those no-name amplifiers that say they are 1000 WATTS but are the size of a 50W amplifier.

That's usually not a big concern though because most reputable amplifiers are rated at RMS power. However, even at RMS (root mean squared - basically average) power, there are different ways to measure. To measure amplifier power, you have to have a cutoff of what you think is acceptable level of distortion. An amplifier with a 25Wpc rating can easily output a 50Wpc RMS signal with higher levels of distortion. The problem, of course, is that higher levels of distortion make the music sound terrible. That's why more detailed spec sheets will indicate Watts ratings with a distortion rating (50W @ 0.1% distortion).

To throw ANOTHER wrinkle into this is that different amplifier topologies can have different levels of acceptable distortion. 5% of distortion for one type of amplifier can sound good while 1% on a different type can sound terrible.

So to sum it up, power ratings almost mean nothing. If you want to get down brass tacks, you have to listen to the setup.

As far as your example about PA systems in stadiums... Well they just have to take the speaker efficiency rating and match it to amplifiers that are rated by reputable manufacturers. They have to use experience to know what to buy. Those systems are usually vastly overpowered as well so they don't run at near maximum volume. So there's plenty of wiggle room and they don't have to spec out a system exactly to a certain volume level.
Appreciate 2
      10-31-2018, 02:58 AM   #17
pr0gi
Second Lieutenant
92
Rep
259
Posts

Drives: G05 40i, X3 M40i
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Plovdiv

iTrader: (0)

Without hearing both systems it is pointless to argue. As many said the decrease of wattage is not strictly related to worse quality.
__________________
Nothing's worse than regret.
Appreciate 1
      10-31-2018, 10:05 AM   #18
jlin101
First Lieutenant
107
Rep
398
Posts

Drives: 2018 X3 M40i, 2016 750i
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
First off, if a speaker is more efficient, it can be louder with fewer watts assuming it is being powered by the same amplifier. If a particular driver (basic component of a speaker) has an efficiency rating of 85dB, it will be louder than a driver with an efficiency rating of 82dB with the same exact amount of power (Watts) being fed to it.

And power ratings? They are B.S. because there is no consistent measurement of how these power ratings are measured. An amplifier that's rated at 25 Wpc can easily sound better at higher volumes than an amplifier that's rated at 200 Wpc. Some really cheap amplifiers rate their power ratings based on peak power which is 100% useless - these are those no-name amplifiers that say they are 1000 WATTS but are the size of a 50W amplifier.

That's usually not a big concern though because most reputable amplifiers are rated at RMS power. However, even at RMS (root mean squared - basically average) power, there are different ways to measure. To measure amplifier power, you have to have a cutoff of what you think is acceptable level of distortion. An amplifier with a 25Wpc rating can easily output a 50Wpc RMS signal with higher levels of distortion. The problem, of course, is that higher levels of distortion make the music sound terrible. That's why more detailed spec sheets will indicate Watts ratings with a distortion rating (50W @ 0.1% distortion).

To throw ANOTHER wrinkle into this is that different amplifier topologies can have different levels of acceptable distortion. 5% of distortion for one type of amplifier can sound good while 1% on a different type can sound terrible.

So to sum it up, power ratings almost mean nothing. If you want to get down brass tacks, you have to listen to the setup.

As far as your example about PA systems in stadiums... Well they just have to take the speaker efficiency rating and match it to amplifiers that are rated by reputable manufacturers. They have to use experience to know what to buy. Those systems are usually vastly overpowered as well so they don't run at near maximum volume. So there's plenty of wiggle room and they don't have to spec out a system exactly to a certain volume level.
Another factor is the range of frequencies where the the amplifier is rated. I think people are just voicing concerns that power went down instead of up (not comparing HK to say, RCA or generic system, assuming all other things being equal). If the new G20 has lower HP/torque rating or rides on smaller wheel/tires than the previous gen, lots of members here will have a coronary, too, simply because people EXPECT to get more, not less.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2018, 11:19 AM   #19
Dog Face Pony Soldier
2006 TIME Person Of The Year
Dog Face Pony Soldier's Avatar
United_States
9720
Rep
6,445
Posts

Drives: M Sport 335i
Join Date: May 2013
Location: North Jersey

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2014 335i  [9.74]
Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
I guess I'm taking issue with the statement that power ratings "are all considered to be marketing B.S.."

This is a misconception and just simply isn't true.

....
First off, if a speaker is more efficient, it can be louder with fewer watts assuming it is being powered by the same amplifier. If a particular driver (basic component of a speaker) has an efficiency rating of 85dB, it will be louder than a driver with an efficiency rating of 82dB with the same exact amount of power (Watts) being fed to it.

And power ratings? They are B.S. because there is no consistent measurement of how these power ratings are measured. An amplifier that's rated at 25 Wpc can easily sound better at higher volumes than an amplifier that's rated at 200 Wpc. Some really cheap amplifiers rate their power ratings based on peak power which is 100% useless - these are those no-name amplifiers that say they are 1000 WATTS but are the size of a 50W amplifier.

That's usually not a big concern though because most reputable amplifiers are rated at RMS power. However, even at RMS (root mean squared - basically average) power, there are different ways to measure. To measure amplifier power, you have to have a cutoff of what you think is acceptable level of distortion. An amplifier with a 25Wpc rating can easily output a 50Wpc RMS signal with higher levels of distortion. The problem, of course, is that higher levels of distortion make the music sound terrible. That's why more detailed spec sheets will indicate Watts ratings with a distortion rating (50W @ 0.1% distortion).

To throw ANOTHER wrinkle into this is that different amplifier topologies can have different levels of acceptable distortion. 5% of distortion for one type of amplifier can sound good while 1% on a different type can sound terrible.

So to sum it up, power ratings almost mean nothing. If you want to get down brass tacks, you have to listen to the setup.

As far as your example about PA systems in stadiums... Well they just have to take the speaker efficiency rating and match it to amplifiers that are rated by reputable manufacturers. They have to use experience to know what to buy. Those systems are usually vastly overpowered as well so they don't run at near maximum volume. So there's plenty of wiggle room and they don't have to spec out a system exactly to a certain volume level.
First, the spec you're calling "efficiency" rating is the speaker's sensitivity rating. While it is common for the layman to get this wrong, that detail needed to be corrected.

The larger issue I'm trying to help readers grasp, is that people are mistakenly taking their experiences of amplifier specifications in retail consumer electronics, and transposing them to all audio amplifiers. This is flawed. Amplifier specifications in other markets like commercial and OEM are respected and not nearly as prone to marketing hijinks like consumer electronics.

It's simply inaccurate for anyone to state that ALL amplifier power ratings are BS. That's what I'm pushing back on.
__________________
Appreciate 1
VetteGuy845.50
      10-31-2018, 02:55 PM   #20
Influence
Lieutenant
United_States
398
Rep
525
Posts

Drives: 2020 X3M, 2016 X5 35i
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: NJ

iTrader: (6)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlin101 View Post
the other thing worth mentioning is that you have to double the power to get a increase of 3 db. Assuming the speakers used in F30 and G20 are equivalent, going from 600w to 464w would lose at most 2 db. I would venture to guess that the new model is much quieter, which means there's no need to crank up the volume as much to overcome the cabin noise.
Also, don't forget that if the speakers are more efficient, you will need less power to reach the same output level. For example, if you go from 86dB sensitive speakers to 89dB sensitive speakers, you will only need HALF the wattage to reach the same output level at a given distance from the speaker. If you had 92dB sensitive speakers, you would only need one quarter of the amp power to reach the same output level.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2018, 05:25 PM   #21
jlin101
First Lieutenant
107
Rep
398
Posts

Drives: 2018 X3 M40i, 2016 750i
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Influence View Post
Also, don't forget that if the speakers are more efficient, you will need less power to reach the same output level. For example, if you go from 86dB sensitive speakers to 89dB sensitive speakers, you will only need HALF the wattage to reach the same output level at a given distance from the speaker. If you had 92dB sensitive speakers, you would only need one quarter of the amp power to reach the same output level.
True, that's why I said all else being equal. Since HK doesn't publish their speaker sensitivities (are the speakers even HK?!) or detailed specs of the amp, we can only speculate.
Appreciate 0
      10-31-2018, 08:25 PM   #22
Fuller
Major
1217
Rep
1,290
Posts

Drives: F36 435i
Join Date: May 2017
Location: MA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmer456 View Post
I though it was higher on US spec models. Sometimes if the speakers are more sensitive it can be lower power and sound better/louder like the jbl systems in Toyota's. I pay more attention to 0-60 which is slower on the 330i
Now you have the perfect excuse to get the 340 instead.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:30 AM.




g20
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST