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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions Will it be the ultimate driving machine?

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      01-06-2018, 09:11 AM   #1
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Will it be the ultimate driving machine?

Since the F30 came around it was never the driver car the E90 was. According to the review of the G30 I doubt Bmw has chosen the driver route. It seem like to be a Luxo barge. In my opinion I don't think the G20 will ever be the driver car the E90 and older 3 serie were. What do you think?
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      01-06-2018, 11:33 AM   #2
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Nope, the G20 is a tiny bit longer again. The new 5 series(non-M) is more comfortable too, its better than F10 but still no match for E39.
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      01-07-2018, 12:58 AM   #3
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The F90 is, but not the G30. I cannot speak for what you are looking, but doubt it is the G20.
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      01-27-2018, 01:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Boosted View Post
Nope, the G20 is a tiny bit longer again. The new 5 series(non-M) is more comfortable too, its better than F10 but still no match for E39.
It’s much better than E39. Actually E39 is the worst, because it’s a fetish now.
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      01-27-2018, 02:51 PM   #5
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We should probably reserve judgement until someone has actually driven the car.
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      01-27-2018, 05:53 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
It’s much better than E39. Actually E39 is the worst, because it’s a fetish now.
I still like the E39, but I would take an F90 instead.
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      02-02-2018, 08:30 PM   #7
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Let’s face it, Audi’s which 10 years ago handled like wheelbarrows (and Mercs weren’t a whole lot better) have pretty much caught up in the driving involvement stakes while Jaguar now lead the way!! It’s highly unlikely that BMW’s perceived quality will exceed Audi or MB so they absolutely MUST pull out all stops to make the G20 great to drive, why will people choose it over the other brands if it’s not’? Whether BMW will succeed remains to be seen but I sure hope they do!
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      02-13-2018, 09:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Boosted View Post
Nope, the G20 is a tiny bit longer again. The new 5 series(non-M) is more comfortable too, its better than F10 but still no match for E39.
Forget the E39, I would have been thankful if it even slightly resembled the driving characteristics of the E60. Unfortunately, for as great an all-rounder the new 5er is (truly best in class), it's no driver's car.
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      02-13-2018, 09:25 PM   #9
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I wouldn't be surprised if BMW drops the ball on the next 3-series, just as they did with the latest 7-series.

Unfortunately, the competition has caught up and BMW now plays to the lowest common denominator. The F30 was engineered to generate sales off leases instead of being the best in class the way the E90 and its predecessors were. Why would anything change?
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      02-27-2018, 05:54 PM   #10
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Reports are saying the New X3 (which shares the same CLAR platform due for the G20) drives "like BMW's of old" So as well as increased comfort we could be moving back towards "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
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      02-28-2018, 02:57 AM   #11
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Reports are saying the New X3 (which shares the same CLAR platform due for the G20) drives "like BMW's of old" So as well as increased comfort we could be moving back towards "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
I sure hope so, although personally I believe the 3 will be engineered more for comfort, leaving the new 4 series to be its sporty brother! Reports suggest the new 4 will have styling cues influenced by the csl hommage concept... narrower headlights and tall grille etc...
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      02-28-2018, 10:33 AM   #12
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One of the problem will be the lack of manual transmission at least for North American market. I guess they are getting better with eps so It should provide better feed-back. Let see for the rest.
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      04-16-2018, 07:51 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if BMW drops the ball on the next 3-series, just as they did with the latest 7-series.

Unfortunately, the competition has caught up and BMW now plays to the lowest common denominator. The F30 was engineered to generate sales off leases instead of being the best in class the way the E90 and its predecessors were. Why would anything change?
Every single car in the market is engineered to generate sales and leases. BMW does that by building the only mass market cars that have 50-50 weight distribution, by offering RWD models throughout its range, and consequently focusing more on driving experience than others. And actually F32 is lighter, faster, lower to the ground, more efficient, better built, more reliable, safer, more comfortable than E92. It even feels smaller than E92 when it's driven, since it feels more rigid and composed.
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      04-20-2018, 10:10 AM   #14
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I think the G20 will be as spec sensitive as most German luxury cars. A 20i/20d SE won't light up your world like an 340i with M-Sport or Adaptive Dampers.
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      04-20-2018, 10:58 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
One of the problem will be the lack of manual transmission at least for North American market. I guess they are getting better with eps so It should provide better feed-back. Let see for the rest.
I understand why you and others feel that a lack of an MT will be some kind of "problem" for the next 3 series.
However, the facts about MT and AT sales is no longer debatable in terms of market share.

No, a lack of an MT is not going to be a problem nor hurt sales in any appreciable way. The MT market is ultra niche these days.
BMW has certain spec cars that continue to have MT, the current 2 series and the new M2 for example. Regarding the 2019 M2 BMW has given it an even more powerful engine, along with an actually updated and upgraded MT.

MT sales even on the continent that demanded their inclusion, Europe, the greater trend over the past decade has proven that modern ATs is what the vast majority of drivers prefer and buy.
When the ZF 8spd AT was introduced with the F30 BMW drivers have experienced a new level of AT performance. Yes, I wrote "performance".

Those of us who still love to drive MT equipped cars will simply need to seek the brands and cars and/or variants that have that trans, or purchase on the used market. As fun as an MT equipped car is to drive, the MT is no longer the more efficient and faster option, actually, the majority of modern AT equipped automobiles outperform the MT counterparts, along with the AT having better fuel efficiency.

All that distinctly shows that not having an MT option for a BWM bread-and-butter automobile will not be a "problem".
Much to the chagrin of many of us.

I've accepted the fantastic ZF AT, and have had one in each of my last two BMW 3 series.
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      04-20-2018, 11:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
One of the problem will be the lack of manual transmission at least for North American market. I guess they are getting better with eps so It should provide better feed-back. Let see for the rest.
I understand why you and others feel that a lack of an MT will be some kind of "problem" for the next 3 series.
However, the facts about MT and AT sales is no longer debatable in terms of market share.

No, a lack of an MT is not going to be a problem nor hurt sales in any appreciable way. The MT market is ultra niche these days.
BMW has certain spec cars that continue to have MT, the current 2 series and the new M2 for example. Regarding the 2019 M2 BMW has given it an even more powerful engine, along with an actually updated and upgraded MT.

MT sales even on the continent that demanded their inclusion, Europe, the greater trend over the past decade has proven that modern ATs is what the vast majority of drivers prefer and buy.
When the ZF 8spd AT was introduced with the F30 BMW drivers have experienced a new level of AT performance. Yes, I wrote "performance".

Those of us who still love to drive MT equipped cars will simply need to seek the brands and cars and/or variants that have that trans, or purchase on the used market. As fun as an MT equipped car is to drive, the MT is no longer the more efficient and faster option, actually, the majority of modern AT equipped automobiles outperform the MT counterparts, along with the AT having better fuel efficiency.

All that distinctly shows that not having an MT option for a BWM bread-and-butter automobile will not be a "problem".
Much to the chagrin of many of us.

I've accepted the fantastic ZF AT, and have had one in each of my last two BMW 3 series.
Well this topic is not about the commercial success of the car it's about the driving pleasure. I'm not a BMW shareholder so I don't really care about the commercial success of this car. Most of MT fans already know that the AT cars are faster, more efficient etc but they don't care. They want involvement not pure speed. MT are key elements of driving fun, I was watching a review of a Sprinter van the recently and they even mentioned the added fun value of the MT in a commercial van!
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      04-20-2018, 04:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
Well this topic is not about the commercial success of the car it's about the driving pleasure. I'm not a BMW shareholder so I don't really care about the commercial success of this car. Most of MT fans already know that the AT cars are faster, more efficient etc but they don't care. They want involvement not pure speed. MT are key elements of driving fun, I was watching a review of a Sprinter van the recently and they even mentioned the added fun value of the MT in a commercial van!
I wasn't only addressing those things.
I've already agreed that a lot of us enjoy and love a car with an MT.

Your comment didn't bring up those things either.
You only offered that not having an MT is a problem


If by "problem" you mean that those who love MTs have a problem, then indeed the lack of an MT will be a problem for the very limited number of people who won't have that choice.

I was commenting on the issue that you brought up as a "problem".
And, I'm offering why the lack of an MT is not a problem to BMW or the greater market of buyers and drivers.
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      04-21-2018, 03:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
Since the F30 came around it was never the driver car the E90 was. According to the review of the G30 I doubt Bmw has chosen the driver route. It seem like to be a Luxo barge. In my opinion I don't think the G20 will ever be the driver car the E90 and older 3 serie were. What do you think?
It's going to be bigger and just like a slimmer down G30 I assume. Small 3 series days are gone.
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      04-23-2018, 12:57 AM   #19
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based on the BMW X3 reviews i'd expect it to be better than the F30 by a lot.

I have a current B9 A4 sport pack, and well compared to my previous A4 I thikn it does feel a little more communicative but I do miss the weight balance and BMW ability to rotate around a corner without understeer.

I'm very likely to be in the m340i / m3 bucket next time around and well based on the X3 M40i reviews, cautiously optimistic
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      04-23-2018, 10:22 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM90 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
Well this topic is not about the commercial success of the car it's about the driving pleasure. I'm not a BMW shareholder so I don't really care about the commercial success of this car. Most of MT fans already know that the AT cars are faster, more efficient etc but they don't care. They want involvement not pure speed. MT are key elements of driving fun, I was watching a review of a Sprinter van the recently and they even mentioned the added fun value of the MT in a commercial van!
I wasn't only addressing those things.
I've already agreed that a lot of us enjoy and love a car with an MT.

Your comment didn't bring up those things either.
You only offered that not having an MT is a problem


If by "problem" you mean that those who love MTs have a problem, then indeed the lack of an MT will be a problem for the very limited number of people who won't have that choice.

I was commenting on the issue that you brought up as a "problem".
And, I'm offering why the lack of an MT is not a problem to BMW or the greater market of buyers and drivers.
Well I'm not a lawyer and English is a second language for me so i'm not trying to get an emphasis on certain different meaning of words. The unavailability of MT is a problem for driving pleasure on a so call « ultimate driving machine ». Not a problem for sales or for a vast majority of buyers. But still it is a problem for purist which help bring the bmw brand where it is now. So it might not by a first world problem but it is one.
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      04-23-2018, 04:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if BMW drops the ball on the next 3-series, just as they did with the latest 7-series.

Unfortunately, the competition has caught up and BMW now plays to the lowest common denominator. The F30 was engineered to generate sales off leases instead of being the best in class the way the E90 and its predecessors were. Why would anything change?
Every single car in the market is engineered to generate sales and leases. BMW does that by building the only mass market cars that have 50-50 weight distribution, by offering RWD models throughout its range, and consequently focusing more on driving experience than others. And actually F32 is lighter, faster, lower to the ground, more efficient, better built, more reliable, safer, more comfortable than E92. It even feels smaller than E92 when it's driven, since it feels more rigid and composed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortexiphan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if BMW drops the ball on the next 3-series, just as they did with the latest 7-series.

Unfortunately, the competition has caught up and BMW now plays to the lowest common denominator. The F30 was engineered to generate sales off leases instead of being the best in class the way the E90 and its predecessors were. Why would anything change?
Every single car in the market is engineered to generate sales and leases. BMW does that by building the only mass market cars that have 50-50 weight distribution, by offering RWD models throughout its range, and consequently focusing more on driving experience than others. And actually F32 is lighter, faster, lower to the ground, more efficient, better built, more reliable, safer, more comfortable than E92. It even feels smaller than E92 when it's driven, since it feels more rigid and composed.
Are you serious e92 is the best M3 ever
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      04-24-2018, 05:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BimmerMat135 View Post
Well I'm not a lawyer and English is a second language for me so i'm not trying to get an emphasis on certain different meaning of words. The unavailability of MT is a problem for driving pleasure on a so call «*ultimate driving machine*». Not a problem for sales or for a vast majority of buyers. But still it is a problem for purist which help bring the bmw brand where it is now. So it might not by a first world problem but it is one.
Yes, in that regard and understanding, we agree.

I can also say that even though I prefer to drive an automobile with a MT, I have not been disappointed with the fantastic ZF AT.
In my 2012 335i Msport I was pleasantly surprised at how great the ZF is, and how fast and smooth the up and downshifts are. This AT was a revelation as to how far and fantastic AT technology has come from the old days of slow to react slush-boxes.
The improved ZF 8spd AT in my 2016 340i Msport showed that ZF wasn't resting and sleeping. ZF continued to improve their torque converter AT, and it equals any dual clutch trans in a non sports car, and easily compares favorably to ZF's very own dual clutch trans.

And, the torque converter AT can actually do multi-gear downshifts faster than a dual clutch as it can skip from 8th to 2nd nearly instantly, whereas a dual clutch has to de-clutch, shift, and reengage the clutch to perform a multi-gear downshift as it's gears are on two separate shafts.

There are times I do miss being able to take off from a stop a certain way, or engage a different gear with greater accuracy in certain turns where the AT can't do it the same way.
Still, overall, I'm very surprised and happy at how responsive the ZF AT really is. And when left in full auto mode for the daily commute, the shifts are butter smooth, smoother and faster than I can do with an MT.

I understand the disappointment of those who want a BMW with an MT. I too would like to at least have that choice.
But, if BMW did offer an MT with the new 3 series and it didn't feel and function markedly better than the current MT, then I would likely not choose the MT over the ZF AT.

I'm in luck in that I don't have the 'problem' that some enthusiasts may have to deal with the disappearance of trans technology that has been surpassed by the "automatic" variety.

Last edited by RPM90; 07-17-2018 at 05:38 PM..
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