[vinlikesred]

there's a discussion-turned-into-mudfight going on in another forum and i wanted to hear from what you guys think.

japanese fanboys claim that BMW couldn't keep up with the emergence of powerful japanese cars, such as g35 and lexus is, in terms of HP, torque and performance in general so that they hastily came up with turbo 3.0 engine, with turbo borrowed from another japanese company - i think mitzu - only to stay in the game. the fact that they had to use turbo, from none other than another japanese company, means the lack of technology in BMW's part cuz NA engine is always better...

the BMW defenders claims that the japanese just couldn't compete with BMW's 3000cc I6 engine at the same displacement so they had to increase displacement to 3500cc or higher only to compete with 3000cc BMW I6.

to me it kinda sounds like chicken-or-egg argument... what do you think?

[LOLrance]

I think that most car companies know gas consumption is now a big issue and that is why more are resorting to FI. Its not about who can compete with who as far as power goes, its about who can sell the most cars at the end of the day and a powerful car with great gas mileage is what the public wants

As far as the turbos coming from Mitsubishi goes, Mitsubishi is not just another car manufacturer as many believe. They have been making turbos for years and they are very good at what they do. im glad the turbos came from mitsubishi or else this might be a weakpoint in our engine down the line.

[radix]

Originally Posted by vinlikesred

there's a discussion-turned-into-mudfight going on in another forum and i wanted to hear from what you guys think.

japanese fanboys claim that BMW couldn't keep up with the emergence of powerful japanese cars, such as g35 and lexus is, in terms of HP, torque and performance in general so that they hastily came up with turbo 3.0 engine ...

These people clearly have not heard of the E46 M3, Z4M, M5, M6, etc. BMW can get what they need of of an NA engine. I don't see how this is even an argument. BMW easily gets 100hp/liter out of their NA engines. Power wasn't the only aim of the N54.

[doku]

+1 on the Mitsubishi turbos. Go to the experts if you want it done right.

Isn't that why civics look like BMWs?

[gshb]

Originally Posted by doku

+1 on the Mitsubishi turbos. Go to the experts if you want it done right.

Isn't that why civics look like BMWs?

honda went to bmw to design their new civic?

[TurboFan]

I think the I6 in the e46 m3 was the limit of what an inline 6 can do w/o FI. That high strung engine isn't going to cut it for the majority of the 3 series buyers, so they had to go a different route.

With the I6, as cylinder bore increses, you either have to lengthen the crank shaft or thin out the cylinder wall. Or a little of both. You can increase the stroke for a little added displacement, but then you drop the redline of the engine and other laws of physics come into play.

The crank on the I-6 is already a very long crank. Think about it, it's almost as long as the crank off a V-10 or V-12 engine. That long, heavy crank is reducing power available. Lengthen it even more, and it must become even more stout to resist the twisting loads trying to deflect it.

I think the turbo was a natural evolution for BMW, and I think that the other makers simply opted to increase displacement of the V-6 because it's just an easier way to get more power. I love the I-6 from BMW, but its days are numbered. Look at the M3 now - it had to move to the V-8 to up the power anty and stay normally aspirated.

I also agree that as fuel economy becomes more important, more FI engines will hit the market. I can get 28-29 mpg on the highway in my 335 if I cruise around 70 mph (needless to say, I don't do that much), but that turbo is giving me the best of both worlds-power when I want it and better fuel economy when I don't.

[Year's_End]

Covered it all^

[Bimmerista]

TurboFan nailed it.

One footnote, increasing the displacement of the engine, even if BMW wanted to do it and re-designed its chasis to accomodate the engine, also increases weight in all the wrong places-up front, which BMW is trying do get away from as much as possible.

[radix]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

I think the I6 in the e46 m3 was the limit of what an inline 6 can do w/o FI. That high strung engine isn't going to cut it for the majority of the 3 series buyers, so they had to go a different route.

[...]

Look at the M3 now - it had to move to the V-8 to up the power ante and stay normally aspirated.

I agree with everything you posted. Just wanted to point out BMW did manage to bump the power another 27hp on the CSL models (over the standard US spec S54B32). That probably is about the limit of the S54 though. The crazy thing is that i remember reading sometime back that AMC once made a 3.3L 800hp+ NA I6 engine.

[lux.sh]

BMW couldn't keep up with VTEK POWA.

oh yeah isn't that a phone?

[BK]

Originally Posted by gshb

honda went to bmw to design their new civic?

Yes. It's no secret Honda copies BMW. Here's a couple of links from a quick Google search:

"The latest generation of Civic goes back to a tried-and-true formula in an attempt to regain momentum. And that formula is simply this: Subtly copy BMW’s 3 Series in order to give buyers a vehicle that has overtones of the one they wish they could afford."

"Honda designers borrowed and adapted BMW’s famed C-pillar “kink” to the new Civic, made certain the space between the tires and wheel openings matched those of the 3-Series, and reduced panel gaps until they were equal to those of the baby BMW."

"Honda engineers – like their Bavarian counterparts – use a bottom-hinged accelerator, and copied the pedal spacing from the – you guessed it – 3 Series."

http://www.autofieldguide.com/driven/0506dri26.html

"I remember sitting in a park with my father a quarter-century ago, pointing at a nearby car. “What do you think that is?” “A BMW?” Nope, but his guess was not without reason. The second-generation Accord lifted more than a few design cues from the storied German marque."

"After years of increasingly bland styling, the ubiquitous sedan once again begs to be mistaken for a BMW. ... Looking at the new Accord from the rear three-quarter perspective, clocking the C-pillar kink and the wrap-around taillights (that continue to the roofline’s down-sweep), it’s a dead ringer for the current BMW 5-Series. ... Inside, the Accord’s instrument panel sweeps across the cabin like a 5-Series’ dash."

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/honda-accord-review/

[BMWE90]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

BMW couldn't keep up with VTEK POWA.

oh yeah isn't that a phone?

Yeah there's an electronic company called Vtech as opposed to VTEC for Honda.

[cooldude]

no japanese car has ever given competition to m5.

in fact all the cars with 500+ hp are european

[galahad05]

Originally Posted by cooldude

no japanese car has ever given competition to m5.

in fact all the cars with 500+ hp are european

Yay! Some car I can't afford has more horsepower than some other cars I can't afford! I feel I have such a stake in all this...

[MontegoblueE92]

Originally Posted by TurboFan

I think the I6 in the e46 m3 was the limit of what an inline 6 can do w/o FI. That high strung engine isn't going to cut it for the majority of the 3 series buyers, so they had to go a different route.

With the I6, as cylinder bore increses, you either have to lengthen the crank shaft or thin out the cylinder wall. Or a little of both. You can increase the stroke for a little added displacement, but then you drop the redline of the engine and other laws of physics come into play.

The crank on the I-6 is already a very long crank. Think about it, it's almost as long as the crank off a V-10 or V-12 engine. That long, heavy crank is reducing power available. Lengthen it even more, and it must become even more stout to resist the twisting loads trying to deflect it.

I think the turbo was a natural evolution for BMW, and I think that the other makers simply opted to increase displacement of the V-6 because it's just an easier way to get more power. I love the I-6 from BMW, but its days are numbered. Look at the M3 now - it had to move to the V-8 to up the power anty and stay normally aspirated.

I also agree that as fuel economy becomes more important, more FI engines will hit the market. I can get 28-29 mpg on the highway in my 335 if I cruise around 70 mph (needless to say, I don't do that much), but that turbo is giving me the best of both worlds-power when I want it and better fuel economy when I don't.

I honestly think the I6 is going to stay around for a while. It's BMWs specialty. It's what makes the engine incredibly smooth under all power loads, because it helps to balance out engine knock and other aspects. It's just not something a V6 can do. Other competitor companies have been using increased displacement engines for a while now. But, you also have to look at the emissions and efficiency side. The fact that a 3L with 300hp can average over 30mpg is pretty amazing. Take that against the 3.5L from MB, 17/25. So there is a lot more than sheer power that comes into play for BMW engineers. I mean, what is the first thing you hear about cars nowdays? Fuel efficiency. You have hybrids, flex fuel, and electric cars. FI is just the easiest way to get power while still keeping efficiency.

The reasoning behind the V8 in the M3 was for the racing aspect of BMW. The E46s with the V8s won everything under the sun. When regulations stated that they could no longer use that engine because it was not what was in the production car, they moved back to the I6 and became just another race car, not a sure fire winner.

Oh, and on the whole Mitsubishi turbo thing... Subaru produces our xDrives.

[BMdblU]

Originally Posted by galahad05

Yay! Some car I can't afford has more horsepower than some other cars I can't afford! I feel I have such a stake in all this...

[Tallest]

a fight about this???! Fanboys need to get a life.

3l turbo not turbo bla bla bla that is YESTERDAY. Watch out for all this sexy new BMW technology coming our way with all sorts of cool energy efficient designs and concepts, BMW is one ahead of many with their Efficient Dynamics, brake energy generation, etc, etc. Just read an issue in Car about the Z concept 2018. Absolutely stunning. That's future.

[Blk07335i]

BMW wins every head to head that I've ever read. I had a G35 prior to this car and let me tell there is no comparison. The only mod I ever did to the G was to replace the OE air filter with a K&N drop in. I haven't been this into a car since I had my '92 VW Corrado VR6. Loved that car too.

[LEDZEP]

After the words "interesting discussion", I think "on another forum" is a given.

[TheAcAvenger]

It's true that the 3er usually won all the competitions against its japanese competitors. But i'll say this... this board would be 1/8th of its members if the 335 didn't exist. There's no way in the universe i'm paying $40+k for a car with less than 300hp in this day in age. A lot of former japanese car drivers will agree. I used to say that i'd never be interested in another bmw until the n54 came out... look at me now.

[Lassaxi]

Originally Posted by LEDZEP

After the words "interesting discussion", I think "on another forum" is a given.

+1

[cooldude]

Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger

It's true that the 3er usually won all the competitions against its japanese competitors. But i'll say this... this board would be 1/8th of its members if the 335 didn't exist. There's no way in the universe i'm paying $40+k for a car with less than 300hp in this day in age. A lot of former japanese car drivers will agree. I used to say that i'd never be interested in another bmw until the n54 came out... look at me now.

6 years ago i would have bought the 330i, its the way bmw drives more than the power