[Nick the Greek]

For reasons I won't bore you with, I had occasion to be driving a little Skoda Citigo around today. For the less well informed, this is the Skoda version of the VW Up!

It had the 1.0 litre tripple, with all of 59bhp and a similar amount of torques mated to a slick five speed box. All in weight is circa 850 kg.

It's a pocket money car, with a full list price of four figures, yet came equipped with alloy wheels, air con, remote central locking, heated seats, electric mirrors and windows an a half decent stereo. It also had the best feeling leather steering wheel I have ever driven with.

What a bloody great little car. I had forgotten how sheer size and weight slow a car down. Manoeuvres that would have been impossible in a F30 sized car, were executed with room to spare. With so little weight to slow, braking could be left, very late (even with rear drums!). The engine is so tiny and physically light, the car dances around corners and refuses to under steer. Ostensibly much faster cars were surprised at the little Skoda nipping at there heels, as whilst they walked away in a straight road, come a roundabout, you could make up dozens of feet on the brakes and carry 15 miles an hour more corner speed.

Sitting here typing this, the grin is still on my face. The sound of that little engine running sweetly to its red line still in my ears. And even after driving it with foot to the floor all the time, it only needed a fiver in petrol.

It reminded me of a time, when you could have fun in a car by taking it by the scruff of its neck and have fun at speeds that would not be a risk to your licence.

I loved it!

[Kal101]

Sounds a bit like my sons fiesta Zetec.

998cc ecoboost with loads of kit I haven't even got

Driven it a couple of times right little roller skate of a car.

Either cars are getting bigger or parking spaces are getting smaller.

[....,,,,..,,..]

Yes and no.

In my opinion, people have forgotten just how much fun a small car is.

By small I mean smaller than Focus, Golfs etc.

Those cars are big!


I used to have a total hoot in our Yaris Tsport.
1.5 VVTI engine (and extras) with all round discs on Toyo tyres.

On a lot of backroad stuff not much could keep up without using both sides of the road.


I reckon cars are bigger AND parking spaces smaller or at least crammed together.

[Gorsh]

It just shows tiny cars are often great fun. They are so nimble around town but in the bigger world it's horses for courses, so maybe those of us who live in an urban area need two cars, one such as this for local driving and our BMW's for longer / open road trips.

[Watsey]

Couldn't agree more. Lightweight is the central philosophy of designers such as Gordon Murray, and 'gram' reduction strategy was core to the design of the new MX5. The T25 may not be a looker, but the iStream production system is less complex, requires less production space, and results in small, lightweight, vehicles. Less mass = less energy required to propel = smaller engine = less weight = smaller suspension/brakes = less weight......

Pursuit of lightness is starting to make it into larger vehicles - the new Q7 has lost 325kg and, from memory, the Range Sport dropped 400kg. Accepted, they were portly to start with, but driving dynamics, reduced fuel consumption, and extending the world's liquid fossil fuels can only be a good thing.

How about a 1 tonne (possibly a bit ambitious), sub-100g/km, 155mph, and >70mpg (real world) saloon/estate ? It'll be with us at some point.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Watsey

Couldn't agree more. Lightweight is the central philosophy of designers such as Gordon Murray, and 'gram' reduction strategy was core to the design of the new MX5. The T25 may not be a looker, but the iStream production system is less complex, requires less production space, and results in small, lightweight, vehicles. Less mass = less energy required to propel = smaller engine = less weight = smaller suspension/brakes = less weight......

Pursuit of lightness is starting to make it into larger vehicles - the new Q7 has lost 325kg and, from memory, the Range Sport dropped 400kg. Accepted, they were portly to start with, but driving dynamics, reduced fuel consumption, and extending the world's liquid fossil fuels can only be a good thing.

How about a 1 tonne (possibly a bit ambitious), sub-100g/km, 155mph, and >70mpg (real world) saloon/estate ? It'll be with us at some point.

THe new BMW 330e will get you 3 out of 4 of those!

No way will a 4 door mainstream saloon break the 1 tonne mark. Ever.

[gromit2468]

Some of the most driving fun I've had over the years has been in tiny little hire cars: Renault 5 and Twingo, Rover 100 (with K-series), Ford Fiesta (late90s version with the 1.25 engine)

My experience of recent super-minis of the Fiesta, Corsa ,208 class is that they no longer have that go-kart feel as the extra weight of safety kit has grown.

I've never had a go of the Volkswagen Up! variety of cars, but its good to hear that the same sort of nippiness is alive and well!

[M8 JTD]

One of the many reasons why I love Caterhams's so much

[Apl440i or 335d?]

I had a corsa as a hire car back in April. It was horrid!

Some small cars are brilliant, but some are dismal.

[leon1984]

I'm currently in a 2009 Mini Cooper D whilst I wait for my 430. I have to say I'm having more fun in it than I did my 235i.

Lightweight, great feel, accessible performance and corner speed that is just so much fun. I'm a lightweight cheap frills convert for sure

[Nick the Greek]

Originally Posted by gromit2468

Some of the most driving fun I've had over the years has been in tiny little hire cars: Renault 5 and Twingo, Rover 100 (with K-series), Ford Fiesta (late90s version with the 1.25 engine)

My experience of recent super-minis of the Fiesta, Corsa ,208 class is that they no longer have that go-kart feel as the extra weight of safety kit has grown.

I've never had a go of the Volkswagen Up! variety of cars, but its good to hear that the same sort of nippiness is alive and well!

Yes the Fiesta / Corsa are now quite big. The Up! size cars are a size under this class.

What about taking my Citigo above, giving it say 100bhp with similar torques. Increasing the weight by no more than 50kg, by adding six speed box, bigger brakes, some huggy seats and charging say £12 grand for it?

Modern day 205 GTI anyone?

[Walesy]

Originally Posted by Kal27

Sounds a bit like my sons fiesta Zetec.

998cc ecoboost with loads of kit I haven't even got

Driven it a couple of times right little roller skate of a car.

Either cars are getting bigger or parking spaces are getting smaller.

Driven one of them...it was actually a fun wee car to drive!

Originally Posted by Apl000?

I had a corsa as a hire car back in April. It was horrid!

Some small cars are brilliant, but some are dismal.

The missus had a corsa.. it was awful, truly was! It was 4 years old, 38 k miles and needed the two back arches painted (VX didnt want to know, said it was previous damage..which it wasn't, now a common complaint), wiper mechanism, exhaust, cylinder head gasket and a crank shaft oil seal. It was serviced every 10k miles and she drives like a nun...just shite cars.

Small cars are fun and getting better imo, especially with the equipment levels. I bought the missus a Mazda 2 Sport or something, for a 1.3 it can shift and handles really well, I have had lots of fun just popping to the shops in it and stretching its legs (again she drives like a nun). Funny thing is...she chose that over the Mini.

[Nick the Greek]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Yes and no.

In my opinion, people have forgotten just how much fun a small car is.

By small I mean smaller than Focus, Golfs etc.

Those cars are big!


I used to have a total hoot in our Yaris Tsport.
1.5 VVTI engine (and extras) with all round discs on Toyo tyres.

On a lot of backroad stuff not much could keep up without using both sides of the road.


I reckon cars are bigger AND parking spaces smaller or at least crammed together.

Yes that little Yaris was a cracker. Mrs NTG had one back in the day

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by Nick the Greek

Yes the Fiesta / Corsa are now quite big. The Up! size cars are a size under this class.

What about taking my Citigo above, giving it say 100bhp with similar torques. Increasing the weight by no more than 50kg, by adding six speed box, bigger brakes, some huggy seats and charging say £12 grand for it?

Modern day 205 GTI anyone?

When the Up! was first launched there was talk of a Gti version with exactly that, 100-120bhp, 6 speed gearbox and 17" alloys. Sadly it hasn't happened.

[SkyJawa]

In every way shape or form my pug 205 1.9 gti is much more fun than the BM. It's no where near as straight line fast, or really fast by modern standards but it's less than a tonne and dances across the road. On the right back B road my BM would have no hope of keeping up, just too heavy. I love it to bits and would never sell it.

Equally, the most fun drive I've had this year was in the wife's 245bhp mk5 golf gti to the golf club across some great B roads and didn't get held up, I really noticed the weight difference over mine.

[JustChris]

Depends though, you need a balance. Love a small car around home and for a leisure drive,

Not so much to Edinburgh and back in a day.

People drive longer and faster than ever and that's better in a bigger car,

I wish I could get away with a smaller car yes. I'm thankful BMW U.S. going lighter at last though yay.

[XAlp]

Originally Posted by Nick the Greek

Yes the Fiesta / Corsa are now quite big. The Up! size cars are a size under this class.

What about taking my Citigo above, giving it say 100bhp with similar torques. Increasing the weight by no more than 50kg, by adding six speed box, bigger brakes, some huggy seats and charging say £12 grand for it?

I liked the look and idea of the Panda 100hp - not sure if they were any good mind...

[SkyJawa]

Originally Posted by XAlp

I liked the look and idea of the Panda 100hp - not sure if they were any good mind...

Yeah, they were surprisingly good!

[Russbmw]

The thing is, they are fun and small, and yes - ragging the shit out of them is fun, but it's not what you want do to all the time.

I used to have this little rocket about 4 years ago, when I had my modified e39 528. Loved it. Miss it a lot. Small, economical, bags of character and turned more heads than most other cars on the road.

Great fun to hoon about in.

[Wills2]

Not sure I can agree, recently had a 116i for 2 weeks and it was bloody awful, I was almost brought to tears of joy when the time came to hand it back and pick up the m5 this week.

Having said that 3rd class driving is better than 1st class walking and all that, plus one day I'll be back on the bus....

[....,,,,..,,..]

Originally Posted by Russbmw

The thing is, they are fun and small, and yes - ragging the shit out of them is fun, but it's not what you want do to all the time.

I used to have this little rocket about 4 years ago, when I had my modified e39 528. Loved it. Miss it a lot. Small, economical, bags of character and turned more heads than most other cars on the road.

Great fun to hoon about in.

I assume that's the Xdrive Mini going of the ride height




Regarding 1 series, it's a big car, it's not in the small n fun class.

[leon1984]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Not sure I can agree, recently had a 116i for 2 weeks and it was bloody awful, I was almost brought to tears of joy when the time came to hand it back and pick up the m5 this week.

Having said that 3rd class driving is better than 1st class walking and all that, plus one day I'll be back on the bus....

A 116i is not really what this thread is about they weigh a lot