2015 Z06 vs 2015 GTR Nismo (Motortrend)*UPDATED*/ Carlos Lego Geek Out 03/14/2015)

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

Most owners don't have 1/100th of the capability of a professional driver that tests the cars. That is why most don't experience heatsoak.

No, those owners are pushing the car near the limits...as the say 8/10s which is pretty damn close to a "Pro" driver. They are doing 30 minute sessions, not a couple laps to get a feel for the car/warm it up then 1 lap to set a time.

I truly believe that this car needs to be broken in properly since GM has nanny'd the ECU.

Originally Posted by pgviper

11.4 @ 124 for the Z06 !?!?!?!

HAHAHAHA, someone can't drive. There are already owners with stock cars running 10.x @ 13x

They lost me at the straight line specs. Bogus article. Not even worth the read.

How did they lose you at the straight line aspect? Its already been confirmed, lots of times, that the aero package on the C7Z inhibits its ability to go fast in a straight line after 120 or 130 mph but it keeps it planted through turns to keep the speed up (as shown in this article).

Also, I know of only 1 "stock" C7Z in the 10s (barely) and he used DRs to achieve it and his MPH was 128. Everything else I see is 11s.....I like to see what you're talking about.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

No, those owners are pushing the car near the limits...as the say 8/10s which is pretty damn close to a "Pro" driver. They are doing 30 minute sessions, not a couple laps to get a feel for the car/warm it up then 1 lap to set a time.

There are maybe .05% of Z owners who have anything close to the capability of Pobst or another pro driver. I have 30+ hours of track time last year but I am nowhere even close to a pro. Running 30 minute sessions is entirely different than running 30 minute sessions in a pro-driven car. 100%, entirely different. The difference between 8/10ths and 10/10ths is far greater than that between 1/10ths and 8/10ths.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Sorry for misleading you with my incorrect logic statement.

Randy Pobst * properly broken in z06 * AT

I find it very interesting that actual owners are not having the same issues that these magazines are.

It's not a break-in or transmission issue. The car has overly conservative fail-safes programmed to the ECU reigning things in at elevated oil temps. However this is very easily programmed out while still maintaining very safe parameters and many have done so. I haven't had the car on a track yet and unfortunately I won't be able to experience this since I already got tuned and run it on E85, but I never experienced any issues on the street when bone stock.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

There are maybe .05% of Z owners who have anything close to the capability of Pobst or another pro driver. I have 30+ hours of track time last year but I am nowhere even close to a pro. Running 30 minute sessions is entirely different than running 30 minute sessions in a pro-driven car. 100%, entirely different. The difference between 8/10ths and 10/10ths is far greater than that between 1/10ths and 8/10ths.

Well its good to know cars know the difference when they're being driven by a pro and a regular person.....

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Well its good to know cars know the difference when they're being driven by a pro and a regular person.....

More gas and less brakes tend to send a pretty clear message to the ECU. One that seems to say, "Throttle back!"

You must not track very much if you think an average owner can come remotely close to pushing a Z06 like Randy Pobst can.

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

No, those owners are pushing the car near the limits...as the say 8/10s which is pretty damn close to a "Pro" driver. They are doing 30 minute sessions, not a couple laps to get a feel for the car/warm it up then 1 lap to set a time.

I truly believe that this car needs to be broken in properly since GM has nanny'd the ECU.



How did they lose you at the straight line aspect? Its already been confirmed, lots of times, that the aero package on the C7Z inhibits its ability to go fast in a straight line after 120 or 130 mph but it keeps it planted through turns to keep the speed up (as shown in this article).

Also, I know of only 1 "stock" C7Z in the 10s (barely) and he used DRs to achieve it and his MPH was 128. Everything else I see is 11s.....I like to see what you're talking about.

My comment was def an over reaction. There is already a guy with headers, some type of intake mod and a tune that pulled a 10.5 and thinks the car is capable of hitting a 10.2 or 10.3. I'm not one to obsess about quarter mile times but it is a good indication to the increase in performance mod's yield.

I am def no expert but to pick up anything more than .5 seconds due to headers/intake and tune is WILD! If anything, the increase should be smaller than lets say a camaro zl1 which is also a FI car. THose guys usually pick up about .3 seconds from those types of mods. I really just find it so bizarre at how much this car is held back.

Originally Posted by FC4

It's not a break-in or transmission issue. The car has overly conservative fail-safes programmed to the ECU reigning things in at elevated oil temps. However this is very easily programmed out while still maintaining very safe parameters and many have done so. I haven't had the car on a track yet and unfortunately I won't be able to experience this since I already got tuned and run it on E85, but I never experienced any issues on the street when bone stock.

Honestly I just find this whole "pull timing" thing so bizarre. Its as if GM put some witchcraft into this car.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

More gas and less brakes tend to send a pretty clear message to the ECU. One that seems to say, "Throttle back!"

You must not track very much if you think an average owner can come remotely close to pushing a Z06 like Randy Pobst can.

Uh huh....a 30 minute session even doing at half pace will/should show heat soak. So you are basically saying a FI car won't show heat soak unless its being driven at 100% by a "pro" driver? Ok, got it.....I guess going WOT on the straights and taking it easy through the turns is ok by us "average" drivers and won't yield any heat soak.....

Originally Posted by pgviper

My comment was def an over reaction. There is already a guy with headers, some type of intake mod and a tune that pulled a 10.5 and thinks the car is capable of hitting a 10.2 or 10.3. I'm not one to obsess about quarter mile times but it is a good indication to the increase in performance mod's yield.

I am def no expert but to pick up anything more than .5 seconds due to headers/intake and tune is WILD! If anything, the increase should be smaller than lets say a camaro zl1 which is also a FI car. THose guys usually pick up about .3 seconds from those types of mods. I really just find it so bizarre at how much this car is held back.

Honestly I just find this whole "pull timing" thing so bizarre. Its as if GM put some witchcraft into this car.

Well these new DI engine from GM hold back power quite a bit. I believe the Stingrays gain over 30rwhp from headers alone. Vengance Racing gained 30+ rwhp from a quite "conservative" tune alone on their C7Z06. So there is power in these engines but you just have to get them out.

The GM ECU thing is to "protect" the engine and they said after "500 miles" it'll unlock the "full" potential of the car....uh huh.....so far no good. Tune that crap out is the way to go.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Honestly I just find this whole "pull timing" thing so bizarre. Its as if GM put some witchcraft into this car.

GM designed the car to run hot for emissions purposes, but this is just a trend of modern cars. Stock, it ran significantly hotter than any of my previous Corvettes, much like my BMW (245-250 degree oil temps while cruising. Really?). Logs show timing being pulled at elevated oil/coolant temps by 5 to 6 degrees which can be worth an easy 50-60 RWHP. Combine all this with the need to play safe on 91-octane fuel, and you're robbed of power once you get some heat in it.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Uh huh....a 30 minute session even doing at half pace will/should show heat soak. So you are basically saying a FI car won't show heat soak unless its being driven at 100% by a "pro" driver? Ok, got it.....I guess going WOT on the straights and taking it easy through the turns is ok by us "average" drivers and won't yield any heat soak.....

I am saying that the harder a car is driven, the more likely it is to heatsoak. And further, that a pro driver puts significantly more stress on a car than the average amateur does. This should not be a revelation to anyone on this board.

The higher percentage of the time the car is on throttle, the more stressful things are on the car. The higher temps get, the less cooldown time is allowed, and the ecu pulls timing more.

Again, you can argue with me all you want, but I track a FI car regularly. Your statement that a 30 minute session at half pace in a FI car will show heatsoak is pretty funny, and blatantly wrong. I am running 1:43 on the mid-ohio club course on street tires with a FI N55 engine putting out 400whp. That is pretty fast on street tires, faster than any reported lap times in the M3 forum. I have never once gotten it to heatsoak at sea level, but I did manage to get it to pull power and go into a coolant limp mode when I was at Pueblo Motorsports track in Colorado due to the elevation. What this means is that my abilities are driving the car on the edge of heatsoak, and if a better driver than myself was to drive my car at sea level, it would likely heatsoak. I am just not fast enough to get it to do so. The exact same thing applies to brake fade, and numerous other things on the track.

I have been on ride-alongs and shared the track with professional race car drivers and the difference in skill between them and even talented amateurs is enormous. I read a post in the 1M track section a while back that had Pobst drive the OP's car at VIR. Through the esses, Pobst was 15mph faster than the OP with the identical car. That is 20% faster!

What you are saying is basically the equivalent of a softball beer league player saying, "How come professional baseball players get hurt pitching when I can throw pitch after pitch without getting sore?

The answer is, "Because you are doing it at 1/20th of the effort and skill level that they are, which means your body is being stressed significantly less and in different ways."

If you want to harbor delusions of grandeur and pretend that you or the average Z06 driver have a similar skill level to Pobst, be my guest. But don't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

I am saying that the harder a car is driven, the more likely it is to heatsoak. And further, that a pro driver puts significantly more stress on a car than the average amateur does. This should not be a revelation to anyone on this board.

The higher percentage of the time the car is on throttle, the more stressful things are on the car. The higher temps get, the less cooldown time is allowed, and the ecu pulls timing more.

Again, you can argue with me all you want, but I track a FI car regularly. Your statement that a 30 minute session at half pace in a FI car will show heatsoak is pretty funny, and blatantly wrong. I am running 1:43 on the mid-ohio club course on street tires with a FI N55 engine putting out 400whp. That is pretty fast on street tires, faster than any reported lap times in the M3 forum. I have never once gotten it to heatsoak at sea level, but I did manage to get it to pull power and go into a coolant limp mode when I was at Pueblo Motorsports track in Colorado due to the elevation. What this means is that my abilities are driving the car on the edge of heatsoak, and if a better driver than myself was to drive my car at sea level, it would likely heatsoak. I am just not fast enough to get it to do so. The exact same thing applies to brake fade, and numerous other things on the track.

I have been on ride-alongs and shared the track with professional race car drivers and the difference in skill between them and even talented amateurs is enormous. I read a post in the 1M track section a while back that had Pobst drive the OP's car at VIR. Through the esses, Pobst was 15mph faster than the OP with the identical car. That is 20% faster!

What you are saying is basically the equivalent of a softball beer league player saying, "How come professional baseball players get hurt pitching when I can throw pitch after pitch without getting sore?

The answer is, "Because you are doing it at 1/20th of the effort and skill level that they are, which means your body is being stressed significantly less and in different ways."

If you want to harbor delusions of grandeur and pretend that you or the average Z06 driver have a similar skill level to Pobst, be my guest. But don't expect anyone to take your arguments seriously.

Thats fine, don't take me "serious". I like how you write a story to try and get a point across. I'm also trying to get a point across with the LT4, not a turbo N54/N55. Congrats for not being able to get heat soak on your 400whp turbo car that surely has better cooling.....

Its just the fact that a 30 minute session would show signs of heat soak with an above average driver. Why? He might be taking the turns as aggressive as a pro driver or trying to set a record lap, but what about the straight portions? WOT is WOT no matter if you're a 16 year old kid or #1 pro driver in the world.

If you want to entertain misapprehensions of majesty and pretend that the average C7 Z06 driver won't run into heating/cooling issues when summer time comes around.

The most "track" time I have is with indoor go-karts and do fairly well.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Thats fine, don't take me "serious". I like how you write a story to try and get a point across. I'm also trying to get a point across with the LT4, not a turbo N54/N55. Congrats for not being able to get heat soak on your 400whp turbo car that surely has better cooling.....

Its just the fact that a 30 minute session would show signs of heat soak with an above average driver. Why? He might be taking the turns as aggressive as a pro driver or trying to set a record lap, but what about the straight portions? WOT is WOT no matter if you're a 16 year old kid or #1 pro driver in the world.

If you want to entertain misapprehensions of majesty and pretend that the average C7 Z06 driver won't run into heating/cooling issues when summer time comes around.

The most "track" time I have is with indoor go-karts and do fairly well.

I guess you are still not understanding. So in the tradition of Billup, I made a diagram for you. Heatsoak has nothing to do with "what percent of WOT" you are. It has to do with what percentage of time during a session the car is WOT. Tell me - who is WOT longer, the pro or you in this case?

Also, astoundingly you are still not understanding my main point. The better z06 drivers probably will encounter heatsoak. But the average ones may not, which explains why all of the magazines that use pro drivers are panning the ECU while guys on the forums are all indignant and claim they have no problems. I think the Z06 does not have good enough cooling to be driven hard by a pro driver, or perhaps by an amateur driver in really hot ambient conditions. I am just explaining why a higher percentage of pro reviews are showing heatsoak than dudes on the forum are.

A professional driver driving his hardest is more likely to encounter heatsoak than an amateur driver driving his hardest. Are you REALLY disagreeing with that?

[Nkc]

Bravo. Excellent diagram. I taste a lot of bill in your work, you have potential.

[Vigilante375]

Nice penis drawing (you really must have nothing to do to make that up), but I see a flaw in your "awesome" diagram. The Pro line is off in a couple spots.....

Anyways, since you haven't been keeping up with the Z06 and what real, normal human beings are experiencing then keep drawing male anatomy's, you'll get it right one day.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Nice penis drawing (you really must have nothing to do to make that up), but I see a flaw in your "awesome" diagram. The Pro line is off in a couple spots.....

Anyways, since you haven't been keeping up with the Z06 and what real, normal human beings are experiencing then keep drawing male anatomy's, you'll get it right one day.
[/img]

The line is not off, he is just trail braking around the glans. Whereas you, being the amateur driver, take a longer line once past the hole in the tip and fail to get on the throttle as quick.

Further, once you get to the balls you have to brake - in my experience, that is very frustrating. I'd much rather have someone stay on the gas the entire time, like the pro line does. The apex is much more enjoyable that way (with no interruption).

[DocWeatherington]

[DocWeatherington]

That looks like a ..............

[FC4]

Can you guys pick something more entertaining to argue about?

[Vigilante375]

How about.....



Besides, I thought you're taught to use the whole road? Lines seem to only matter in the turns....seem like you like short stroking under the shaft.

[auf Deutsch]

Originally Posted by DocWeatherington

I'll call it as I saw it. Quite a spanking by Godzilla. Imagine if it had sport cup rubber and CCBs.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsche

I'll call it as I saw it. Quite a spanking by Godzilla. Imagine if it had sport cup rubber and CCBs.

Then it would be $70,000 more than the Z07 instead of $60,000.

The Z07 is still the fastest sub $100,000 car around a track.

[Mingwan]

Damn, that zo6 got smoked. Kind of disappointing considering the GTR is such an old platform contending with the zo6 which is a brand new one. Makes me wonder how beastly the next gen gtr will be with 800hp.

All of these excuses are quite entertaining, though. Keep me coming !

[happos2]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

There are maybe .05% of Z owners who have anything close to the capability of Pobst or another pro driver. I have 30+ hours of track time last year but I am nowhere even close to a pro. Running 30 minute sessions is entirely different than running 30 minute sessions in a pro-driven car. 100%, entirely different. The difference between 8/10ths and 10/10ths is far greater than that between 1/10ths and 8/10ths.

Ah, a non-linear scale. Is is parabolic, log based? hehe