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View Poll Results: do you support banning guns/gun control
NO - gun control means hitting your target 50 71.43%
YES - grab em up and make the world safe 20 28.57%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

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      06-18-2009, 09:17 PM   #23
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Scollins - you crack me up. Remind me not to get into a debate with you on gun control. You skewered that anti-gun advocates.

I don't really want a gun - I want my MULE Laser designator so I can paint the enemy and someone else with a bigger gun can take care of business

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(man I remember lugging that thing around to setup an OP.. omg that shit was heavy)
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      06-18-2009, 11:06 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
"Also, grenades and rocket launchers (with live rockets) fall under "explosive destructive devices", which happen to be legal in 25 states, maybe a few more. "

A 155mm Paladin is a "large bore destructive device", which makes it legal to own in 45 states! I owned an M203 40mm grenade launcher until late last year.

An F22 without hardpoints is just another jet, so anyone can own them. You just need the cash. And guess what, with hardpoints it just falls under the "destructive device" classification, meaning another Form 4, $200 tax and a background check!

"but that doesn't make them illegal to own, possess and use."
I didn't ask you what was legal and what was illegal in this country, I wanted to know what you consider "too much" if you consider anything too much at all...

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Originally Posted by scollins View Post
"
And finally, as long as law-abiding citizens own them, what's the problem?
I think this finally answers my question. Thanks.
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      06-18-2009, 11:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by immiketoo View Post
The fact that you have asked that question speaks volumes about the sheltered life you have had thus far. As local LE, I can tell you with certainty that the day you know the answer to that question, it will be too late for you, and that you will be calling me for help.

No man should ever rely upon another man for the personal safety of himself or his loved ones.
Sheltered life? I'd expect more from an LE. Didn't they teach you to never make assumptions. Assumptions get you killed in your line of work.

And where did all this "no man should ever rely on someone else for their personal safety" crap come from??

Do you even understand what I'm arguing about?
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      06-18-2009, 11:39 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
I didn't ask you what was legal and what was illegal in this country, I wanted to know what you consider "too much" if you consider anything too much at all...
I pointed out all of that because many don't know that those are indeed legal to own, now. So a line has already been drawn, and the line allows quite a lot. But many will say things like "ZOMG!!! Machine guns are illegal!" Which is clearly not the case.



Quote:
I think this finally answers my question. Thanks.
Yes, I would hope that clears it up. The assumption should be the same as the legal standard, innocent until proven guilty. "Law-abiding until proven otherwise." The key being "law-abiding." I believe in background checks to verify that someone is not a disqualified person. I do not support licensing such as Illinois' FOID, nor do I support registration of any firearms. Yes, I have detailed records of all the customers who have purchased a firearm from me (4473), but there is really no reason for the government to know. Other than they are allowed to have it (not a felon, under a restraining order, etc.) because they passed the background check.

But registration always leads to confiscation. We don't even have to look outside our borders to find an example: "Assault Rifles" in California were supposed to be registered to keep them. But then they changed the law again, and said "Well, we really don't want you to have them at all." So all of those that registered them had to either prove where they disposed of it (sale, destruction, etc.) or turn it in without compensation!
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      06-18-2009, 11:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Septro View Post
Scollins - you crack me up. Remind me not to get into a debate with you on gun control. You skewered that anti-gun advocates.
Well, it is very tough subject to debate, because both sides (myself included) tend to get very emotional over it. I think one could even argue that gun control debates devolve into heated, emotional shouting matches faster and with more frequency than abortion debates.

Also, since I'm a home based FFL, potential gun buyers have to pass an even more stringent "background" check than the government: If you aren't someone I'd invite into my home, I'm sure as hell not selling you a firearm! I don't care what your background check says....
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      06-19-2009, 08:49 AM   #28
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Yep. Though I'm surprised it isn't higher since we have 10.3x the population density.
Population density is a bit misleading when you look at Canada. We have vast portions of this country that are uninhabited and other parts that are packed. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver all have population density that is similar to Houston and yet Toronto has 1.9 murders per 100,000 people and Houston is 16.9.
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      06-19-2009, 08:52 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by scollins View Post

But registration always leads to confiscation. We don't even have to look outside our borders to find an example: "Assault Rifles" in California were supposed to be registered to keep them. But then they changed the law again, and said "Well, we really don't want you to have them at all." So all of those that registered them had to either prove where they disposed of it (sale, destruction, etc.) or turn it in without compensation!
Really? So is the government coming for your car and dog next?
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      06-19-2009, 09:13 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
per capita the US has 2.85 more guns than Canada and 2.81 as many murders.
Canadians have 3.12 times as many brain cells, are encouraged to use them 12.87 times more than Americans, and have infinitely more sense of responsibility.

Your Canadian logic does not work here in America. Guns don't kill people. I kill people.
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      06-19-2009, 05:50 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
Really? So is the government coming for your car and dog next?

Gun registration leads to gun confiscation. Since we are talking about guns in this thread, it should be obvious and apparent that we aren't talking about cars, dogs, etc. Well, to most people anyway, exceptions always seem to crop up.....




Oh, and even those other registrations lead to confiscations. Forget to pay your car tabs, car gets impounded. Forget to license your dog and it is caught, it gets confiscated too. So I guess in the end you are indeed right, the government WILL come after you if you don't register your car and dog!

But, if you want to treat gun registration like car registration, I might be all for it. That means they don't ban certain cars because of features, being "too powerful" or "deadly" or "too cheap", etc. A registration in one state is good in another state without needing another registration. A car legal in one state is legal in all 50 states, etc. You don't need to stop by the local police station and beg for a driver's license, you just have to pass a simple, objective test, available in nearly every language on the planet. You don't even have to be a citizen of the US to buy a car here.
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      06-20-2009, 01:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMNT View Post
...For example...that picture of a gun you have there. I dont think anyone should own such a thing...wtf do you need that type of deadly power for? But if you want a handgun or rifle...be my guest.
A year ago I saw some point to this statement. I happen to own a couple handguns, one of which is on my hip at the moment, but I didn't see the need for such an assault rifle.

However, there was this little thing a while back called the American Revolution. I never thought I'd say this, but if the current track of government continues, I forsee a new revolution in the not too distant future. We fought hard and won our freedoms, and one by one, we give them back for a little comfort here and there. I see a day no too far off where we must take up arms to defend ourselves from a new "administration" that tells us we need to remove term limits, approve a new election process that takes power away from the people, and offers their form of the "American Way" if only we agree not to complain. Anyone see Obama campaining for a third term??

I say law abiding citizens of this country should be able to own any conventional weapon they choose. The government shouldn't be concerned unless they know they're going to give us a reason to need our weapons. Take away the guns from an ordinary law abiding citizen, and you leave only well-armed criminals.

History has proven over and over again that the criminals will remain armed, regardless of what the government tries to do to honest citizens.
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      06-20-2009, 01:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
Really? So is the government coming for your car and dog next?
based on recent legislation, I'm thinking they might, depending on the fuel economy or breed.
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      06-20-2009, 02:59 PM   #34
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some of you own a handgun and say we dont need an AR15. but a handgun is considerably more dangerous in the hands of a criminal as it can be CONCEALED. thats why so many politicians have tried to ban ownership of handguns.
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      06-20-2009, 05:25 PM   #35
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Attempting to ban ownership of handguns has been proven to be a fruitless endeavour. Besides, our gov't has banned drugs, how's that going? Banned alcohol, that didn't go well. Can't have prostitution either, except in the "great" state of Nevada I think, that's not working either.

Government banning guns just means crooks don't have to worry about being shot by law abiding citizens.
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      06-20-2009, 05:35 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFan View Post
Attempting to ban ownership of handguns has been proven to be a fruitless endeavour. Besides, our gov't has banned drugs, how's that going? Banned alcohol, that didn't go well. Can't have prostitution either, except in the "great" state of Nevada I think, that's not working either.

Government banning guns just means crooks don't have to worry about being shot by law abiding citizens.
prohibition didnt work either. I think I am becoming a Libertarian - we need LESS government in our lives.
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      06-20-2009, 07:54 PM   #37
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Amen brother! Less is more. The currect regime makes Bush look like a conservative tightwad small gov't....wait.....
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      06-21-2009, 08:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post

But, if you want to treat gun registration like car registration, I might be all for it. That means they don't ban certain cars because of features, being "too powerful" or "deadly" or "too cheap", etc. A registration in one state is good in another state without needing another registration. A car legal in one state is legal in all 50 states, etc. You don't need to stop by the local police station and beg for a driver's license, you just have to pass a simple, objective test, available in nearly every language on the planet. You don't even have to be a citizen of the US to buy a car here.
So you have no problem with a reasonable national registraton process? I would suggest that you should convince the NRA of the same. Gun owners need to get in front of this issue and quit with the "From my cold dead hands" and "we need guns to protect us from the gubment" rhetoric.
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      06-21-2009, 09:53 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaiman View Post
So you have no problem with a reasonable national registraton process? I would suggest that you should convince the NRA of the same. Gun owners need to get in front of this issue and quit with the "From my cold dead hands" and "we need guns to protect us from the gubment" rhetoric.
We've tried that approach in the past and were severely burned and screwed in the process. The NRA has a history of selling out rights in the attempt to keep others, and it has never worked out. They've learned their lessons, and now you see them as "hardliners". Well of course we are now, since us frogs have been sitting in the hot water too long.

The biggest problem is that damn word, "reasonable." It is too subjective. What you consider reasonable I might consider restrictive. I'm sure that Diane Feinstein's definition of "reasonable gun control" is not anywhere in the same universe as to what I consider "reasonable." So asking for something "reasonable" is not acceptable because there is no defined standard for what constitutes "reasonable." And that goes for anything, not just guns. What is "reasonable" fuel economy, or pollution levels, or skirt hemlines, or drugs, or speed limits, or taxes or, or, or, etc.


And no I don't support a national registration process, because it would NEVER be handled without political influence, hand-wringing and general shenanigans. I said I MIGHT support such a scheme under very specific conditions. Conditions which would never be met. There is no way they would set up a system like the DMV, where you go down, take a ridiculously simple test and get your license, and then not have to retake that skills test again, ever. Hell, they can't even take a driver's license from a 90 year old as long as he passes the eyesight test. But again, a national gun licensing scheme would never be implemented like that, nor would it include any safeguards against future shenanigans. I like that word, shenanigans.

Cars just aren't as much of a hot button political issue, although I see their future having a much more difficult time too. There have been proposals to tax cars based on engine displacement, regardless of efficiency. So their day is coming too.
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      06-22-2009, 12:24 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scollins View Post
We've tried that approach in the past and were severely burned and screwed in the process. The NRA has a history of selling out rights in the attempt to keep others, and it has never worked out. They've learned their lessons, and now you see them as "hardliners". Well of course we are now, since us frogs have been sitting in the hot water too long.

The biggest problem is that damn word, "reasonable." It is too subjective. What you consider reasonable I might consider restrictive. I'm sure that Diane Feinstein's definition of "reasonable gun control" is not anywhere in the same universe as to what I consider "reasonable." So asking for something "reasonable" is not acceptable because there is no defined standard for what constitutes "reasonable." And that goes for anything, not just guns. What is "reasonable" fuel economy, or pollution levels, or skirt hemlines, or drugs, or speed limits, or taxes or, or, or, etc.


And no I don't support a national registration process, because it would NEVER be handled without political influence, hand-wringing and general shenanigans. I said I MIGHT support such a scheme under very specific conditions. Conditions which would never be met. There is no way they would set up a system like the DMV, where you go down, take a ridiculously simple test and get your license, and then not have to retake that skills test again, ever. Hell, they can't even take a driver's license from a 90 year old as long as he passes the eyesight test. But again, a national gun licensing scheme would never be implemented like that, nor would it include any safeguards against future shenanigans. I like that word, shenanigans.

Cars just aren't as much of a hot button political issue, although I see their future having a much more difficult time too. There have been proposals to tax cars based on engine displacement, regardless of efficiency. So their day is coming too.
This issue is obviously one you've given a lot of thought to. Your arguments are well thought out. I'm not a gun owner and don't have any plans to be one. I don't have a problem with you or anyone else who's qualified to do so owning a gun. I do however believe that in a civilized society, guns like anything else with the potential to harm or mame humans need to be regulated in some way. It only makes sense. Whether you agree or disagree laws and limits are a given in civil society. So in the case of guns what laws and limits do you consider to be reasonable?

As a non gun owner I must admit I'm curious why people seem to need such large personal arsenals of fire power. AR15's and rocket launchers are obviously not about hunting. Is it just a hobby or fascination with guns and explosives or is it about protection, and if so from who or what?
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      06-22-2009, 12:42 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
This issue is obviously one you've given a lot of thought to. Your arguments are well thought out. I'm not a gun owner and don't have any plans to be one. I don't have a problem with you or anyone else who's qualified to do so owning a gun. I do however believe that in a civilized society, guns like anything else with the potential to harm or mame humans need to be regulated in some way. It only makes sense. Whether you agree or disagree laws and limits are a given in civil society. So in the case of guns what laws and limits do you consider to be reasonable?

As a non gun owner I must admit I'm curious why people seem to need such large personal arsenals of fire power. AR15's and rocket launchers are obviously not about hunting. Is it just a hobby or fascination with guns and explosives or is it about protection, and if so from who or what?
I'm about to call it a night (business trip tomorrow, still need to pack), but I'll put together a few points to answer some of your questions. Probably won't happen until Wednesday though, so don't think I'm ignoring your query.
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      06-22-2009, 02:15 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
This issue is obviously one you've given a lot of thought to. Your arguments are well thought out. I'm not a gun owner and don't have any plans to be one. I don't have a problem with you or anyone else who's qualified to do so owning a gun. I do however believe that in a civilized society, guns like anything else with the potential to harm or mame humans need to be regulated in some way. It only makes sense. Whether you agree or disagree laws and limits are a given in civil society. So in the case of guns what laws and limits do you consider to be reasonable?

As a non gun owner I must admit I'm curious why people seem to need such large personal arsenals of fire power. AR15's and rocket launchers are obviously not about hunting. Is it just a hobby or fascination with guns and explosives or is it about protection, and if so from who or what?
the problem with registration is it used to eliminate guns from honest citizens as happened with CA assualt weapons ban. or in San Fran and DC where they banned ownership of plain old handguns. Criminals are NOT effected because they dont register.
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      06-22-2009, 11:55 AM   #43
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Guns don't kill people. I kill people.
Don't let Chuck Norris hear you say that
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      06-24-2009, 01:34 AM   #44
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Don't let Chuck Norris hear you say that
LOL, funny. but also did you know Chuck is a huge supporter of the 2nd amendment?
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