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      01-25-2011, 12:48 AM   #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
^ That can't really be a serious question, can it?
It is a VERY serious question. I recognize some differences. How significant those difference are perceived would vary from one person to another.

Can you enumerate any differences?
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      01-25-2011, 11:56 AM   #728
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It is a VERY serious question. I recognize some differences. How significant those difference are perceived would vary from one person to another.

Can you enumerate any differences?
I can't believe I actually have to explain this ... quite pathetic, really.

But, since it seems you're actually serious, I'll just use one quote from the article to show how NO ONE is like this crazy doctor, especially not our President:

"The district attorney alleges seven babies born alive in the sixth, seventh and eighth months of their mothers' pregnancies were killed at the Women's Medical Society practice with scissors used to cut their spinal cords."

These were not abortions, these were babies that were BORN and then KILLED.
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      01-25-2011, 07:40 PM   #729
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Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
these were babies that were BORN and then KILLED.
Would you strongly and emphatically oppose these killings?
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      01-25-2011, 08:38 PM   #730
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Would you strongly and emphatically oppose these killings?
Absolutely. And yes, even if Obama said he was 'for' them in whatever twisted voting record you'd like to post.
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      01-25-2011, 10:53 PM   #731
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Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
Absolutely. And yes, even if Obama said he was 'for' them in whatever twisted voting record you'd like to post.
Following a live and viable birth of a late term baby would you also oppose her being left to die without any care, and with full intention of bringing death?
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      01-25-2011, 11:09 PM   #732
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Following a live and viable birth of a late term baby would you also oppose her being left to die without any care, and with full intention of bringing death?
Again, if you're asking in black and white cases, then of course I would oppose it. I'm not sure why you keep asking me these questions? Is it to 'trick' me into having the opposing viewpoint of Obama? Because if that is your goal, I'll save you the trouble: there are plenty of things I don't agree with him on.
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      01-25-2011, 11:44 PM   #733
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Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
Again, if you're asking in black and white cases, then of course I would oppose it. I'm not sure why you keep asking me these questions? Is it to 'trick' me into having the opposing viewpoint of Obama? Because if that is your goal, I'll save you the trouble: there are plenty of things I don't agree with him on.
Then I will cut to the chase.

Mr. Obama as both an Illinois Senator and as a U.S. Senator unmistakably advocated as standard procedure leaving to die, with no kind of comfort, the viable newborns who had survived botched abortions.

Mr. Obama also supported partial birth abortion (a.k.a. dilation and extraction) of the near term fetus where the procedure delivers all but the head of the baby, then the abortionist sticks "scissors" into the brain from the back of the skull to kill it before allowing the head to come out.

He covers himself with statements like, "I wouldn't want my daughter to be punished with a baby!"
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      01-26-2011, 12:05 PM   #734
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Then I will cut to the chase.

Mr. Obama as both an Illinois Senator and as a U.S. Senator unmistakably advocated as standard procedure leaving to die, with no kind of comfort, the viable newborns who had survived botched abortions.

Mr. Obama also supported partial birth abortion (a.k.a. dilation and extraction) of the near term fetus where the procedure delivers all but the head of the baby, then the abortionist sticks "scissors" into the brain from the back of the skull to kill it before allowing the head to come out.

He covers himself with statements like, "I wouldn't want my daughter to be punished with a baby!"
If you'd like to post some quotes of his for us to look at, that would be great.

Because if you're going to google "Obama Partial Birth Abortion" and just note all the sites that say he voted "present" for bills discussing partial birth, you're wasting my time.

3rd Debate:

McCAIN: Sen. Obama, as a member of the Illinois State Senate, voted against a law that would provide immediate medical attention to a child born of a failed abortion. He voted against that. Then there was another bill before the Senate Judiciary Committee in the state of Illinois not that long ago, where he voted against a ban on partial-birth abortion. Thatís a matter of his record.

OBAMA: If it sounds incredible that I would vote to withhold lifesaving treatment from an infant, thatís because itís not true. There was a bill that said you have to provide lifesaving treatment. The fact is that there was already a law on the books in Illinois that required providing lifesaving treatment, which is why not only myself but pro-choice Republicans and Democrats voted against it. With respect to partial-birth abortion, I am completely supportive of a ban on late-term abortions, as long as thereís an exception for the motherís health and life, and this bill did not contain that exception.

Seems pretty clear to me.
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      01-26-2011, 08:27 PM   #735
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Jill Stanek wrote:Top 10 reasons Obama voted against the Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act
by Jill Stanek

Here are the top 10 reasons Barack Obama has variously stated why he voted against Illinois' Born Alive Infant Protection Act when state senator.

Here are the top 10 reasons Barack Obama has variously stated why he voted against Illinois' Born Alive Infant Protection Act when state senator.

10. Babies who survive their abortions are not protected by the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution. Speaking against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act on the IL Senate floor on March 30, 2001, Obama, the sole verbal opponent to the bill stated:
Barack Obama wrote:... I just want to suggest... that this is probably not going to survive constitutional scrutiny.

Number one, whenever we define a previable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we're really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a - child, a nine-month-old - child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place.

I mean, it - it would essentially bar abortions, because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an antiabortion statute. For that purpose, I think it would probably be found unconstitutional.
9. A ban to stop aborted babies from being shelved to die would be burdensome to their mothers. She alone should decide whether her baby lives or dies. Before voting "no" for a 2nd time in the Senate Judiciary Committee on March 5, 2002, Obama stated:
Barack Obama wrote:What we are doing here is to create one more burden on women, and I can't support that.
During a speech at Benedictine University in October 2004, Obama said, according to the Illinois Leader, that "the decision concerning a baby should be left to a woman, but that he does not see himself as supportive of abortion."
8. Wanting to stop live aborted babies from being shelved to die was all about politics. During that same speech at Benedictine University, Obama said, according to the Illinois Leader, "the bill was unnecessary in Illinois and was introduced for political reasons."

7. There was no proof. Also during the Benedictine University speech, Obama said, according to the Illinois Leader, that "there was no documentation that hospitals were actually doing what was alleged in testimony presented before him in committee."

6. Aborting babies alive and letting them die is a doctor's prerogative. An Obama spokesman told the Chicago Tribune in August 2004 that Obama voted against Born Alive because it included provisions that "would have taken away from doctors their professional judgment when a fetus is viable."

5. Anyway, doctors don't do that. Obama told the Chicago Sun-Times in October 2004 he opposed Born Alive because "physicians are already required to use life-saving measures when fetuses are born alive during abortions."

4. Aborting babies alive and letting them die is a religious issue. During their U.S. Senate competition Alan Keyes famously said:
Alan Keyes wrote:Christ would not stand idly by while an infant child in that situation died.... Christ would not vote for Barack Obama, because Barack Obama has voted to behave in a way that it is inconceivable for Christ to have behaved.
Obama has always mischaracterized Keyes' rationale for condemning Obama by implying Keyes was simply making a statement against Obama's pro-abortion position, which is untrue. Keyes pointedly stated he was condemning Obama for his support of infanticide.

Nevertheless, live birth abortion must be included in the list of procedures Obama condones. Obama responded first to Keyes by saying, as quoted in his July 10, 2006, USA Today op ed:
Barack Obama wrote:... [W]e live in a pluralistic society, and that I can't impose my religious views on another.
3. Aborting babies alive and letting them die violates no universal principle. In the same USA Today piece, Obama said he reflected on that first answer, decided it was a "typically liberal response," and revised it:
Barack Obama wrote:... But my opponent's accusations nagged at me.... If I am opposed to abortion for religious reasons but seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.
2. Sinking Born Alive was simply about political oneupsmanship. Obama has this quote on his website:
Pam Sutherland wrote:Pam Sutherland, the president and CEO of the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council, told ABC News. "We worked with him specifically on his strategy. The Republicans were in control of the Illinois Senate at the time. They loved to hold votes on 'partial birth' and 'born alive'. They put these bills out all the time... because they wanted to pigeonhole Democrats...."
And the #1 reason Obama voted against the Born Alive Infant Protection Act was:

1. The IL Born Alive Infant Protection Act was a ploy to undercut Roe v. Wade. During a debate against Keyes in October 2004, Obama stated:
Barack Obama wrote:Now, the bill that was put forward was essentially a way of getting around Roe vs. Wade.... At the federal level, there was a similar bill that passed because it had an amendment saying this does not encroach on Roe vs. Wade. I would have voted for that bill.
This was an out-and-out lie. The definition of "born alive" in the federal and Illinois versions were identical. The only difference came in paragraph (c), which was originally identical in both versions but changed on the federal level.

Illinois' paragraph (c): A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law.

Federal paragraph (c): Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being "born alive" as defined in this section.

When the senator sponsoring the IL bill tried to amend IL's paragraph (c)Amendment 1 below, to be the same as the federal paragraph (c), Barack Obama himself, as chairman of the committee hearing the bill, refused, and he then also killed the bill).

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      01-26-2011, 08:36 PM   #736
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
If you'd like to post some quotes of his for us to look at, that would be great.

Because if you're going to google "Obama Partial Birth Abortion" and just note all the sites that say he voted "present" for bills discussing partial birth, you're wasting my time.

3rd Debate:

McCAIN: Sen. Obama, as a member of the Illinois State Senate, voted against a law that would provide immediate medical attention to a child born of a failed abortion. He voted against that. Then there was another bill before the Senate Judiciary Committee in the state of Illinois not that long ago, where he voted against a ban on partial-birth abortion. That’s a matter of his record.

OBAMA: If it sounds incredible that I would vote to withhold lifesaving treatment from an infant, that’s because it’s not true. There was a bill that said you have to provide lifesaving treatment. The fact is that there was already a law on the books in Illinois that required providing lifesaving treatment, which is why not only myself but pro-choice Republicans and Democrats voted against it. With respect to partial-birth abortion, I am completely supportive of a ban on late-term abortions, as long as there’s an exception for the mother’s health and life, and this bill did not contain that exception.

Seems pretty clear to me.
Quoting Mr. Obama's denials in debate is not evidence of shit. He is an incredibly opportunistic liar. Here is another quote from a debate with Hillary Clinton. Mr. Obama just wanted to change the subject, so this was his response so that the questioning would not proceed on the subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrack Hussein Obama
I have been a stalwart friend of Israels. I think they are one of our most important allies in the region, and I think that their security is sacrosanct, and that the United States is in a special relationship with them.
link

Are you quite sure of that, Mr. Obama?
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      01-26-2011, 08:50 PM   #737
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      01-26-2011, 09:09 PM   #738
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
Then I will cut to the chase.

Mr. Obama as both an Illinois Senator and as a U.S. Senator unmistakably advocated as standard procedure leaving to die, with no kind of comfort, the viable newborns who had survived botched abortions.

Mr. Obama also supported partial birth abortion (a.k.a. dilation and extraction) of the near term fetus where the procedure delivers all but the head of the baby, then the abortionist sticks "scissors" into the brain from the back of the skull to kill it before allowing the head to come out.

He covers himself with statements like, "I wouldn't want my daughter to be punished with a baby!"
I need to correct the bolded part in parentheses. Partial birth abortion is not also known as dilation and extraction. That is a method of abortion used after 13 weeks gestation, but it is not the same as the more controversial Obama supported partial birth abortion.
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      01-26-2011, 10:50 PM   #739
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Ah - crazy right wing blogs. Good form.

Yes - lets by all means "listen" to a right wing blogger, and completely disregard any "lies" Obama has given as a reason for voting the way he did. You choose to believe what a blog tells you, and I'll believe what Obama's actual words were.

You can choose to not believe them. That's up to you.

But no matter what you think of Obama, it doesn't change my opinion on the subject of abortion, nor what I think of Obama because of his view on it.

Look, you're obviously not an Obama fan. That's pretty obvious. But you really need to use right wing blogs to think for you?
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      01-26-2011, 11:20 PM   #740
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Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
Ah - crazy right wing blogs. Good form.

Yes - lets by all means "listen" to a right wing blogger, and completely disregard any "lies" Obama has given as a reason for voting the way he did. You choose to believe what a blog tells you, and I'll believe what Obama's actual words were.

You can choose to not believe them. That's up to you.

But no matter what you think of Obama, it doesn't change my opinion on the subject of abortion, nor what I think of Obama because of his view on it.

Look, you're obviously not an Obama fan. That's pretty obvious. But you really need to use right wing blogs to think for you?
scotts a troll ignore him....
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      01-26-2011, 11:54 PM   #741
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
Ah - crazy right wing blogs. Good form.

Yes - lets by all means "listen" to a right wing blogger, and completely disregard any "lies" Obama has given as a reason for voting the way he did. You choose to believe what a blog tells you, and I'll believe what Obama's actual words were.

You can choose to not believe them. That's up to you.

But no matter what you think of Obama, it doesn't change my opinion on the subject of abortion, nor what I think of Obama because of his view on it.

Look, you're obviously not an Obama fan. That's pretty obvious. But you really need to use right wing blogs to think for you?
The voting record exists. You can ignore that if you want. Many people made up their minds before examining the evidence. Once one's mind is made up, the evidence doesn't matter any more. And if you are not against at least the murder of abortion survivors, then it wouldn't matter to you anyway. This comes back to my point that started this dialog within this thread. What Mr. Obama advocated in his legislative actions was not all that different than what the abortionist did that made the news and left the public aghast.

I see that you are not addressing the evidence that was presented by the original poster. I don't really fault you for that, because researching and writing takes time and effort. Whatever appears in these auto forums is not much more than (at best) an exercise in presentation. It really doesn't rise to a level that can be called debate.

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      01-31-2011, 02:51 PM   #742
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
The voting record exists. You can ignore that if you want. Many people made up their minds before examining the evidence. Once one's mind is made up, the evidence doesn't matter any more. And if you are not against at least the murder of abortion survivors, then it wouldn't matter to you anyway. This comes back to my point that started this dialog within this thread. What Mr. Obama advocated in his legislative actions was not all that different than what the abortionist did that made the news and left the public aghast.

I see that you are not addressing the evidence that was presented by the original poster. I don't really fault you for that, because researching and writing takes time and effort. Whatever appears in these auto forums is not much more than (at best) an exercise in presentation. It really doesn't rise to a level that can be called debate.
Again, there is an easy answer for the voting record. If you read Obama's simple quote, you would understand that.

And there is an obvious difference between voting on complex pieces of legislation and someone's personal/moral feelings on a topic. For example, if I were in the Senate, I'd vote for a woman's right to choose, even though I'm morally against Abortion. Yet, you'd call me a "baby killer" either way. That's the problem with people like you. Every issue is so black and white.

I didn't read the OP because it's 35 pages back and years old. Instead, I picked up the thread from where I started reading when I joined this forum. I'm sorry that a direct quote from the 3rd Presidential debate carries less weight to you than a right-wing blog that you copied and pasted.
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      01-31-2011, 10:04 PM   #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
Again, there is an easy answer for the voting record. If you read Obama's simple quote, you would understand that.

And there is an obvious difference between voting on complex pieces of legislation and someone's personal/moral feelings on a topic. For example, if I were in the Senate, I'd vote for a woman's right to choose, even though I'm morally against Abortion. Yet, you'd call me a "baby killer" either way. That's the problem with people like you. Every issue is so black and white.

I didn't read the OP because it's 35 pages back and years old. Instead, I picked up the thread from where I started reading when I joined this forum. I'm sorry that a direct quote from the 3rd Presidential debate carries less weight to you than a right-wing blog that you copied and pasted.
Mr. Obama finds lieing to be very easy, because people will take him at his word.

Here is something for your reading enjoyment.
link The dispute flared again last week when a leading opponent of legalized abortion, the National Right to Life Committee, posted records from the Illinois Legislature showing that Mr. Obama, while chairman of a Senate committee, in 2003, voted against a "Born Alive" bill that contained nearly identical language to the federal bill that passed unanimously, including the provision limiting its scope.

The group says the documents prove Mr. Obama misrepresented his record.

Indeed, Mr. Obama appeared to misstate his position in the CBN interview on Saturday when he said the federal version he supported "was not the bill that was presented at the state level."

His campaign yesterday acknowledged that he had voted against an identical bill in the state Senate, and a spokesman, Hari Sevugan, said the senator and other lawmakers had concerns that even as worded, the legislation could have undermined existing Illinois abortion law. Those concerns did not exist for the federal bill, because there is no federal abortion law.

In 2005, the campaign noted, a "Born Alive" bill passed the Illinois Legislature after another clause had been added that explicitly stated that the legislation would have no effect on existing state abortion laws.

Told of the campaign's explanation, the legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee, Douglas Johnson, was dubious. "These are newly manufactured and highly implausible excuses," he said. "There is no way that the bill would have had any effect on any method of abortion." Mr. Johnson said the version Mr. Obama voted down clearly applied only to fetuses that emerged from the womb alive.

In addition to the outrage from abortion opponents, a five-minute YouTube video now making the rounds highlights Mr. Obama's opposition to the legislation. The clip, which has been viewed more than 230,000 times, features a testimonial from Jill Stanek, a former nurse who spearheaded the push for the bill in Illinois after witnessing a live infant discarded and left to die at the hospital where she worked. Ms. Stanek appeared at the White House ceremony in 2002 when President Bush signed the federal bill into law.
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      01-31-2011, 10:13 PM   #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1997gtx View Post
I didn't read the OP because it's 35 pages back and years old. Instead, I picked up the thread from where I started reading when I joined this forum. I'm sorry that a direct quote from the 3rd Presidential debate carries less weight to you than a right-wing blog that you copied and pasted.
I should have been clearer. What I was referring to as the OP was the origina blog article by Jill Stanek, rathere than the OP of this car forum thread.
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      02-01-2011, 08:47 AM   #745
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WHY do you keep posting links to articles that are 2+ years old? Can you think for yourself?
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