BMW M says future bleak for manual transmission, M cars to top out at 600 HP for now

[KingOfJericho]

I'm currently driving my first Auto ever and while I appreciate it on my commutes to and from midtown Manhattan, I loathe it in just about every other aspect. I just don't feel like I'm controlling the car.

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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

I'm currently driving my first Auto ever and while I appreciate it on my commutes to and from midtown Manhattan, I loathe it in just about every other aspect. I just don't feel like I'm controlling the car.

Drove a few hundred miles today, back roads.

Stick to the left and sports selected, drove in full manual mode, changing when I felt like it, including a few accidental red line moments lol.

Car is very responsive in manual sports mode on the paddles and love the ability to drop a number of gears in one go, with my hands on the wheel and road just over width of the car

[JasonCSU]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I think many here need to learn the concept of "In my opinion" and "I prefer".

How does anyone here know what someone else considers fun or tedious?

Yet these opinions are frequently put forth here as if they were statements of fact.

I completely agree. It doesn't bother me one bit that some people prefer to have the DCT. What does bother me is that some people think the DCT should be forced upon everyone. What is the issue with having choices?

[captainaudio]

If you want to control the gear you are in put the AT or DCT in manual and use the paddles or the lever to shift.

If you feel that using a clutch pedal is more fun or makes you feel more involved that is a perfectly legitimate opinion. As for at MT giving more control - I don't buy it.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

If you want to control the gear you are in put the AT or DCT in manual and use the paddled or the lever to shift.

If you feel that using a clutch pedal is more fun or makes you feel more involved that is a perfectly legitimate opinion. As for at MT giving more control - I don't buy it.

Done that. Still shifts for you when you don't want to. Doesn't downshift enough usually too. Etc. Pita. I've tried them all. Too unpredictable. I hate flappy paddles.

[vohit4rohit]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

I guess when they start offering food in pill form, you'll be the first to jump on board because chewing, tasting, and reveling in the flavor is sooooooo 2015 and pills are simply faster.

bravo. for most of us here in this forum, driving isn't about how fast you can get from point A to point B. it's about the journey there. and we want that journey to continue to be as fun and in our control as possible.

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Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Done that. Still shifts for you when you don't want to. Doesn't downshift enough usually too. Etc. Pita. I've tried them all. Too unpredictable. I hate flappy paddles.

Never had it change on me when in manual, today even had it red line by accident, no change.

It's simple to drop a few gears in one go with the paddles.

Having drove manual for over 30 years, the 8AT can be tricky for some, as it takes more skill and learning than a manual to get the best out of it.

[stefan]

Such a ridiculous debate. There is NO manual mode on a DCT. It's still an auto box and you tell it what to do via computers. This is fast but it has no feel whatsoever.

I guess I have to admit I'm not a race car driver like most DCT enthusiasts, and I'm not concerned with a few extra seconds. I just want driving feel. BMW left that all behind in the new models with EPS, turbo, and now finally the death of the manual.

One thing I'd like to know is how many owners just bought DCT because they don't know how to drive manual. I imagine that's a non trivial percentage of sales. People aren't teaching their kids manual, and their kids grow up only having an auto. Therefore less sales of manual. Perhaps.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Done that. Still shifts for you when you don't want to. Doesn't downshift enough usually too. Etc. Pita. I've tried them all. Too unpredictable. I hate flappy paddles.

"Doing that" and doing that correctly are two very different things.

If the DCT shifts for you it is because you are doing something stupid and in some cases it wont shift when you do. The Steptronic in my 335i would upshift at red line in manual mode. The DCT in my M4 will not.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by stefan

Such a ridiculous debate. There is NO manual mode on a DCT. It's still an auto box and you tell it what to do via computers. This is fast but it has no feel whatsoever.

I guess I have to admit I'm not a race car driver like most DCT enthusiasts, and I'm not concerned with a few extra seconds. I just want driving feel. BMW left that all behind in the new models with EPS, turbo, and now finally the death of the manual.

One thing I'd like to know is how many owners just bought DCT because they don't know how to drive manual. I imagine that's a non trivial percentage of sales. People aren't teaching their kids manual, and their kids grow up only having an auto. Therefore less sales of manual. Perhaps.

In the words of the late legendary race driver and automotive journalist Denise McCLuggage "Drive what you're in". A good driver adapts to the car and adjusts driving style accoringly. You don't drive a RWD car the same way you drive an AWD car or a FWD car. You don't drive a rear or mid engine car the same way you drive a front engine car, In the hands of an expert driver any of these can perform very well.


Although I sure there are drivers of DCTs who don't know how to drive an MT
I personally don't know anyone who own a DCT car that can not drive a manual and the vast majority of them are very proficient with an MT. I also think that if you do not have experience with an MT and have never had to shift gears it is more difficult to understand and exploit the capabilities of a paddle shifted transmission.

And what percentage of MT drivers are not particularly adept at driving MTs? My experience with high performance driving schools has shown me that it is surprisingly high. They may be able to smoothly start from a stop and get from one gear to another but many have no idea how to heel and toe or even rev match a downshift. In many cases they spend a lot of time in the wrong gear. Knowing how to operate a clutch pedal does not make you Juan Pablo Montoya.

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Originally Posted by stefan

Such a ridiculous debate. There is NO manual mode on a DCT. It's still an auto box and you tell it what to do via computers. This is fast but it has no feel whatsoever.

I guess I have to admit I'm not a race car driver like most DCT enthusiasts, and I'm not concerned with a few extra seconds. I just want driving feel. BMW left that all behind in the new models with EPS, turbo, and now finally the death of the manual.

One thing I'd like to know is how many owners just bought DCT because they don't know how to drive manual. I imagine that's a non trivial percentage of sales. People aren't teaching their kids manual, and their kids grow up only having an auto. Therefore less sales of manual. Perhaps.

Try asking the UK bit of the forum on their view of the 8AT.

Remember this is a country where around 95/98% of drivers drive a manual.

Also where the driving test lets you drive manual and auto, however if you do an auto driving test you cannot drive a manual - against the law!

Around 98% of drivers learn to drive in a manual.

75% of cars bought last year where manual.


The 8AT is a different calibre to the old type auto.


It's amazing how many people seem to be driving gods with a manual car on here.

It's nothing special, pretty much our entire driving population drive manual without fuss.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Brigand

Try asking the UK bit of the forum on their view of the 8AT.

Remember this is a country where around 95/98% of drivers drive a manual.

Also where the driving test lets you drive manual and auto, however if you do an auto driving test you cannot drive a manual - against the law!

Around 98% of drivers learn to drive in a manual.

75% of cars bought last year where manual.


The 8AT is a different calibre to the old type auto.


It's amazing how many people seem to be driving gods with a manual car on here.

It's nothing special, pretty much our entire driving population drive manual without fuss.

I was involved in a conversation with a group of professional drivers at an event I attended recently. These were guys who have raced (and won) at LeMans, Sebring, Daytona and the Indy 500 and a few of them competed in Formula 1. Several of them were national champions in various race series and most of them are currently employed testing cars for manufacturers and auto magazines.

I asked one of them (who happened to be the Senior Skip Barber Instructor who helped me learn how to heel and toe and double clutch) how he liked the DCT in the E92 M3 he drives. His answer was "It shifts better than I can".

There was a general consensus that MTs were enjoyable and involving but when I brought up the issue of control not one of them felt that an MT gave more control than a paddle shifted transmission.

I had a similar conversation with one of the drivers from team RLL whose personal car is an E92 M3 with DCT,

I tend to give the opinions of these pros more weight than the opinions of random posters on an Internet forum.

[C5 FOR]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

Why do you think I want to kill the manual? I just want the M-DCT; I couldn't care less what any of you buy.... However the constant inference that manual is better or that manual drivers are better is what bothers me. As a BMW stockholder, I also understand why MTs are not a priority, because they are not necessarily the most profitable.

FWIW... I operate a $300 million high performance vehicle for a living...technology always trumps nostalgia for performance.

Finally, can you spots the two MTs in my driveway?

You sir are an arse!

Perhaps even an arrogant one!

[Dan Bilzerian]

The Porsche and the Bike.

[C5driver]

Originally Posted by stefan

One thing I'd like to know is how many owners just bought DCT because they don't know how to drive manual.

I bought a DCT because my weekend toy is a 6MT. Sample of one, but you asked.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by C5driver

I bought a DCT because my weekend toy is a 6MT. Sample of one, but you asked.

Make that a sample of 2

I have owned a variety of cars over the years, some with ATs, most with MTs and now one with a DCT.

For some of them an MT was the logical choice or in some cases the only choice (1969 Firebird 400, Spec Miata, 1960 Mini Cooper S, 1954 Jaguar XK120, 1959 Austin Healy "Bug Eye" Sprite, Honda Accord and Acura Integra. I had an Audi 100LS and a Lexus SC300 with MTs.

For other cars an AT was my choice and again in some cases the only choice (BMW 750Lix. Jaguar XJ, Jaguar XKR, BMW 335i E93).

I even had a Saab 95 wagon with a three cylinder, two cycle engine with a four speed on the column and centrifugal clutch freewheeling. It had a rack for a case of the oil that had to be added to the gasoline under the seat. In freewheel mode you did not need to use the third pedal that operated a conventional clutch to shift gears. Just let off on the gas and let the centrifugal clutch decouple, shift and get back on the gas. On my Honda Accords and Acura Integra I used to shift without using the clutch quite often. The Honda 5 Speed MTs were great transmissions and would effortless slip into gear.

My wife drove many of those cars and was very at good driving MTs.

I now regularly switch from AT/DCT to MT and I can honestly say that after years of driving MTs I do not find it particularly challenging although I have to admit that there is a certain satisfaction to a perfectly executed heel and toe double clutched downshift.

In any case I hope BMW continues to offer MTs. If it was not for the auto rev match feature which I absolutely hated when I test drove one I would have seriously considered an MT M4.

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by C5 FOR

You sir are an arse!

Perhaps even an arrogant one!

Sorry if i came off that way... Probably you are seeing my smart asserted after the evolution of a LOT of these threads over the years... My point was meant to be simple... I have 4 different trannys and I enjoy them all. I loathe the inference that those who choose a DCT are all people who either can't drive a stick, or aren't enthusiast enough, or don't like to have fun driving. I am a vehicular adrenaline junky, and want the peak performance... That exists in BMW via the DCT. There are a lot of people on this forum who slam the DCT without ever driving it, thinking it's the same as the 8AT. I meant to show that I have experience with multiple trannys I like, and my opinion and preference for my next fun car is the DCT.

[Bbb34]

I find lots of people are confusing performance and driving "feel".

It really boils down to what you like.
If you love driving manual, it's very difficult to find replacement, and to me personally performance comes secondary. Satisfying feeling I personally get from driving manual, feeling of control, having to pay attention to what I'm doing all the time is very rewarding. So far I was unable to find experience that's as rewarding and satisfying with automatic transmission.

Granted, lots of progress has been made, there are some trully amazing automatic transmissions out there. Better gas mileage, faster 0-60, up and down sifts that are quicker than ever thought possible. Still for those of us who love manuals, it's simply not the same.

My money will follow manual transmission, as difficult as this might be in the future. As long as I can find one, that's what I'm buying.

I'll just ask this though. Having recently driven with very young, new grad. co-worker in her first ever car, Golf GTI with automatic transmission.

Does anybody here think that young drivers would be that much better, initially and years down the road, if only they were forced to learn driving and obtain their license with manual transmission (as it was the case when I was "oh-so-young")???

It was very amusing to see this lovely young girl, with great little car, being ABSOLUTELY clueless what RPMs are and how would she even use her paddle shifters. A bit sad if you ask me (and slightly horrifying perhaps, thinking how many others out there are just like that).

Just my $0.02 on the topic

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

I find lots of people are confusing performance and driving "feel".

It really boils down to what you like.
If you love driving manual, it's very difficult to find replacement, and to me personally performance comes secondary. Satisfying feeling I personally get from driving manual, feeling of control, having to pay attention to what I'm doing all the time is very rewarding. So far I was unable to find experience that's as rewarding and satisfying with automatic transmission. Granted, lots of progress has been made, there are some trully amazing automatic transmissions out there. Better gas mileage, faster 0-60, up and down sifts that are quicker than ever thought possible. Still for those of us who love manuals, it's simply not the same.

My money will follow manual transmission, as difficult as this might be in the future. As long as I can find one, that's what I'm buying.

I'll just ask this though. Having recently driven with very young, new grad. co-worker in her first ever car, Golf GTI with automatic transmission.

Does anybody here think that young drivers would be that much better, initially and years down the road, if only they were forced to learn driving and obtain their license with manual transmission (as it was the case when I was "oh-so-young")???

It was very amusing to see this lovely young girl, with great little car, being ABSOLUTELY clueless what RPMs are and how would she even use her paddle shifters. A bit sad if you ask me (and slightly horrifying perhaps, thinking how many others out there are just like that).

Just my $0.02 on the topic

In the 1970s and 1980s there were millions of FWD Japanese econoboxes with Manual Transmissions on the road. I think it is somewhat unrealistic to conclude that everyone driving one was immersed in their driving and paying close attention. Granted many of the mediocre drivers who drove those MT cars then drive AT cars now but I seriously doubt that their driving was any better when they were driving MTs and a good case could be made that it may have been worse.

IMO if you need to be shifting gears to pay attention to driving you are just not a very good driver. On the type of road that is most conducive to not paying attention, long, boring, straight stretches of flat interstates, you can drive for very long periods without having to shift gears. On some roads like I75 in South Florida not only do you not have to shift you barely have to steer.

I agree with your observation that knowing how to drive an MT tends to lead to a better understanding of how to drive an AT in manual mode.

With the stability controls and anti-lock brakes in modern cars drivers don't have to learn the techniques of skid control or threshold braking that was necessary to control cars in the past. But the reality is that most drivers never learned those techniques anyway and in many cases their first experience with a skid or locked up brakes was just before they crashed,

As far as challenging and paying attention goes of all of the cars that I have owned perhaps the most challenging car to drive and the one that required the most attention was a beater 1962 Ford Falcon with skinny bias ply tires, a horrible floaty suspension, a pathetically underpowered engine, ridiculously slow steering and a god awful two speed Fordomatic transmission. Keeping up with traffic on highways and keeping the thing pointed where you wanted it to go was a constant challenge and took constant attention and was by no means "fun".

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

IMO if you need to be shifting gears to pay attention to driving you are just not a very good driver.

I didn't say "need" it's more of a "want". (oh, and I didn't take this personally, I'm pretty sure you didn't mean to say I'm not a good driver).

What I meant is that I feel more "in tune" with the car at all times with manual transmission. Daily as well as spirited driving is just different, you're approaching your turns and intersections differently, your climbs and descents, icy/snowy roads, passing other cars, you're just doing things differently. It all demands just a bit more care, your fundamental driving skills have to be developed first. In my opinion with manual transmission these skills are what makes you that much smoother, better and I'll even argue safer driver overall for everybody else on the road.

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I agree with your observation that knowing how to drive an MT tends to lead to a better understanding of how to drive an AT in manual mode.

For all the reasons I stated above, I'll just argue "better understanding of how to drive" and omit "AT in manual mode".

In your example you bring Florida and long stretches of boring highway as example and it's hard to disagree with that. What about other places, mountains, sometimes snow covered roads, two way traffic, cities that are not "flat" and have variable weather... etc?

There's never going to be universal agreement on this. I agree with most of what you said. I'm just trying to help manual side of debate and explain why personally I favor manual. But the bottom line is, we'll all spend money on what we like and car companies are going to build what sells.

[F83]

Are we going to resolve this one once and for all? Impressive if we can.

Surprisingly for the Internet, people are talking past each other. 6MT gives what many believe to be a more immersive driving experience. The price of this is a bit of performance. The DCT gives maximum performance but perhaps with a bit less driver involvement. Given these trade offs, some prefer one over the other....

So what?

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Originally Posted by F83

Are we going to resolve this one once and for all? Impressive if we can.

Surprisingly for the Internet, people are talking past each other. 6MT gives what many believe to be a more immersive driving experience. The price of this is a bit of performance. The DCT gives maximum performance but perhaps with a bit less driver involvement. Given these trade offs, some prefer one over the other....

So what?

Very much doubt if it can be resolved, people have their own deep seated views.

One point though, I would actually say the 8AT as fitted to 3 series, gives more driver involvement.

For example.

Manual car, start it up, work through the gears or 2 to 5th etc depending on how you feel.
Go to over take drop it down x number of gears, complete the over take and back in to 5/6th gear.

That is the same every day, sun or shine.

With an 8AT.

Start the car up, in to drive, off you go.
One day you might keep it in comfort all day.
The next a mix of comfort and sport.
The next stick to the left and manual using the paddles.

Same over take move.
Options,
Keeping it in comfort, kick down and overtake.
Keep in comfort, drop a couple of gears using paddles.
Left shift in to sport and kick down
Left shift and drop a couple of gears using paddles and go in to full manual mode.
Complete over take, either back in to comfort and auto or keep in manual or sports auto for next move.


As mentioned previously 30 years of manual cars only and now a 3.0l 6 pot diesel with an 8AT gearbox.

While some of the manuals have been epic, the 8AT is another league again compared to your average auto.