Short video of M5 beating the new 991 Carrera S(991)

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Yeah Tom...sort of figure of speech. Actually more like winding you up because I thought your bring things like "track" and "track tires" into the discussion (as stupid of a discussion as it is). Then of course we'd need to start talking about things not being "equal" right because your was modified and since were in different price ranges, etc. That's how this conversation usually goes right?

The deal is that in a comparison of the M5 vs a Porsche it's the Turbo that is the competitor.

I fail to see how the "Turbo" (unless you mean Panamera Turbo) is a true "competitor" to an M5. The MSRP of a '14 991 Turbo is $151,100 base...no-options whatsoever. A '14 M5 MSRP is $92,900 base without any options. So the 991 Turbo is 62.6% more expensive base to base. Using the same relative 62.6% price differential, that would be like comparing a $57K car to a $92,900 base M5. Even a CTS-V starts at $64,900 (43% differential in base price) and having owned an '09 CTS-V, I can tell you it is not a real competitor given the quality of materials.

I guess it should be a compliment that you think a Turbo is a competitor for an M5. But I think you are wrong, this is how the M5 handles its true "$180K Porsche competitor" from a roll:

Beating up on a 991 Carrera S is just gravy....

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

So basically your only concern is just TURBO
Thanks for clarification

No. My assertion would be that if you compare different cars brand to brand then choose the appropriate car. If we reverse this and I say we should compare the C2S with the 525i you would likely disagree right?

This is such a silly conversation...

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Tom C

I fail to see how the "Turbo" (unless you mean Panamera Turbo) is a true "competitor" to an M5. The MSRP of a '14 991 Turbo is $151,100 base...no-options whatsoever. A '14 M5 MSRP is $92,900 base without any options. So the 991 Turbo is 62.6% more expensive base to base. Using the same relative 62.6% price differential, that would be like comparing a $57K car to a $92,900 base M5. Even a CTS-V starts at $64,900 (43% differential in base price) and having owned an '09 CTS-V, I can tell you it is not a real competitor given the quality of materials.

I guess it should be a compliment that you think a Turbo is a competitor for an M5. But I think you are wrong, this is how the M5 handles its true "$180K Porsche competitor" from a roll:

Beating up on a 991 Carrera S is just gravy....

I still don't get how price is at all relative. Shit...must be a thing that you compare cars on and that's cool. I just don't understand that. They simply either compete or they don't. And now "quality"? GUARANTEED when the Z06 comes out and whips everyone's butt on the street and track (mind you my use of the word "everyone" here is again sort of a figure of speech and not an absolute) that not one person will say "oh but the Porsche is better quality so this is no true comparison". For that matter, in the interest of avoiding hypocrisy, you prob. shouldn't draw the comparison between a Porsche and your old GT-R.

I am surprised you resort to the old "in this situation" argument. Isn't that just tired by now?

But I digress. Here is another stupid Gustav rolling video that shows how a 997 TT makes the M5 look like a non-competitor. Now, bear in mind, this is a 997 so we are at similar prices. This actually would make it "competition" correct?

[u2b]

[/u2b]

Tom, you and I don't usually get into this kind of thing. I don't care to. It really is silly. We both have points. Cool to disagree. I respect your opinions. All good here.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by ColdList

No. My assertion would be that if you compare different cars brand to brand then choose the appropriate car. If we reverse this and I say we should compare the C2S with the 525i you would likely disagree right?

This is such a silly conversation...

Well your comparison was not fair at the first place!
I think OP's concern was just straight line comparison between two cars. One Porsche C2S with 400 HP with about 3120 lb weight (according to Porsche USA) with power/weight ratio of 0.128 hp/lb and the other one BMW M5 with 560 HP and 4400 lb weight with power/weight ratio of 0.127 hp/lb and I think it's fair (IMO). your quote was to compare a 520 HP AWD 3400 lb (I'm not sure about this weight just estimation) Porsche 911 Turbo with a 560 HP RWD 4400 lb BMW M5 ... is it fair?? I can Accept BMW M5 vs Porsche Panamera Turbo! Maybe you are right and M5 is not comparable with C2S. maybe M3/M4 are the better Comparable cars with C2S so let's see the result in a month
according to 525 vs C2S it's another unfair comparison. maybe 550 vs C2S....

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Well your comparison was not fair at the first place!
I think OP's concern was just straight line comparison between two cars. One Porsche C2S with 400 HP with about 3120 lb weight (according to Porsche USA) with power/weight ratio of 0.128 hp/lb and the other one BMW M5 with 560 HP and 4400 lb weight with power/weight ratio of 0.127 hp/lb and I think it's fair (IMO). your quote was to compare a 520 HP AWD 3400 lb (I'm not sure about this weight just estimation) Porsche 911 Turbo with a 560 HP RWD 4400 lb BMW M5 ... is it fair?? I can Accept BMW M5 vs Porsche Panamera Turbo! Maybe you are right and M5 is not comparable with C2S. maybe M3/M4 are the better Comparable cars with C2S so let's see the result in a month
according to 525 vs C2S it's another unfair comparison. maybe 550 vs C2S....

To be honest. I don't see any real comparison at all to the cars. M5 is a grand tourer. C2S is a sports car. In an acceleration test it is silly to pit the C2S vs. the M5. My M6 would leave my former C2S in the dust. It would also roast a California, which is also in a different price bracket but also for a different purpose (flashy).

I would say if we want to go for an all out comparison of cars then then the M5 and the Panamera Turbo are the more apples to apples cars. Both made for similar purposes. I would think the M5 beats the Panamera from a roll, the Panamera beats the M5 from a stop and the Panamera tales it on a track (assuming PDCC).

I can't believe we are even feeding this silly post. For whatever reason, it always seems like a brand war. I do not dislike BMW. I have owned so many of them and currently have the F12 M6 cab. Sitting here lately deciding on whether to keep the Cali and get rid of the M6 of vice-versa.. Pretty sure we are keeping the M6 if that tells you anything. Heavy as a pig and bad traction on launch but she's a dang rocket once you get her rolling. Makes most cars look silly on short runs (C2S included).

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

Well your comparison was not fair at the first place!
I think OP's concern was just straight line comparison between two cars. One Porsche C2S with 400 HP with about 3120 lb weight (according to Porsche USA) with power/weight ratio of 0.128 hp/lb and the other one BMW M5 with 560 HP and 4400 lb weight with power/weight ratio of 0.127 hp/lb and I think it's fair (IMO). your quote was to compare a 520 HP AWD 3400 lb (I'm not sure about this weight just estimation) Porsche 911 Turbo with a 560 HP RWD 4400 lb BMW M5 ... is it fair?? I can Accept BMW M5 vs Porsche Panamera Turbo! Maybe you are right and M5 is not comparable with C2S. maybe M3/M4 are the better Comparable cars with C2S so let's see the result in a month
according to 525 vs C2S it's another unfair comparison. maybe 550 vs C2S....

Let's also not forget torque rating as these are low speed rolling starts. This is why I said turbo vs. turbo.

M5=502
C2S=325
Panamera S=553 (590 overboost)

I have actually done these races in my M6 (pre-DP) against a new C4S from highway rolls at around 60 mph. M6 jumps it instantly. 1.5 lengths without even trying. With DP it would annihilate the C2S and C4S. I have never actually run the TTS vs the M6 but I can confidently say the TTS would leave the M6 in a similar fashion.

[alexey21]

Originally Posted by ColdList

I still don't get how price is at all relative. Shit...must be a thing that you compare cars on and that's cool. I just don't understand that. They simply either compete or they don't. And now "quality"? GUARANTEED when the Z06 comes out and whips everyone's butt on the street and track (mind you my use of the word "everyone" here is again sort of a figure of speech and not an absolute) that not one person will say "oh but the Porsche is better quality so this is no true comparison". For that matter, in the interest of avoiding hypocrisy, you prob. shouldn't draw the comparison between a Porsche and your old GT-R.

Coldlist, they just dont want to believe the truth. Just wave to them and smile.

I guess F1 should start letting people race Turbo engines against NA engines... oh wait, they don't because that is not a fair race... silly them. Don't they know it does not matter what type of engine, as long as the price is similar.

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by ColdList

To be honest. I don't see any real comparison at all to the cars. M5 is a grand tourer. C2S is a sports car. In an acceleration test it is silly to pit the C2S vs. the M5. My M6 would leave my former C2S in the dust. It would also roast a California, which is also in a different price bracket but also for a different purpose (flashy).

I would say if we want to go for an all out comparison of cars then then the M5 and the Panamera Turbo are the more apples to apples cars. Both made for similar purposes. I would think the M5 beats the Panamera from a roll, the Panamera beats the M5 from a stop and the Panamera tales it on a track (assuming PDCC).

I can't believe we are even feeding this silly post. For whatever reason, it always seems like a brand war. I do not dislike BMW. I have owned so many of them and currently have the F12 M6 cab. Sitting here lately deciding on whether to keep the Cali and get rid of the M6 of vice-versa.. Pretty sure we are keeping the M6 if that tells you anything. Heavy as a pig and bad traction on launch but she's a dang rocket once you get her rolling. Makes most cars look silly on short runs (C2S included).

I agree with comparison between M5 vs Panamera Turbo or GTS is fair; however I doubt Pany can beat M5 eaither rolling or drag! and I agree this is not a good comparison (M5 vs C2S) and as I said OP's concern was just straight line and nothing else.

Originally Posted by ColdList

Let's also not forget torque rating as these are low speed rolling starts. This is why I said turbo vs. turbo.

M5=502
C2S=325
Panamera S=553 (590 overboost)

I have actually done these races in my M6 (pre-DP) against a new C4S from highway rolls at around 60 mph. M6 jumps it instantly. 1.5 lengths without even trying. With DP it would annihilate the C2S and C4S. I have never actually run the TTS vs the M6 but I can confidently say the TTS would leave the M6 in a similar fashion.

you may be interested to read this report to see what's the performance of M6 CP. with this numbers I will not be surprised to see M6 beats 911 Turbo in 1 mile race, but not 911 Turbo S

Edit: the following report reffers to 911TTS (560 HP , 700 NM)

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

I agree with comparison between M5 vs Panamera Turbo or GTS is fair; however I doubt Pany can beat M5 eaither rolling or drag! and I agree this is not a good comparison (M5 vs C2S) and as I said OP's concern was just straight line and nothing else.



you may be interested to read this report to see what's the performance of M6 CP. with this numbers I will not be surprised to see M6 beats 911 Turbo in 1 mile race, but not 911 Turbo S

Edit: the following report reffers to 911TTS (560 HP , 700 NM)

I can't make sense of that. Translated perhaps. Prob. is that M6 will hit limiter though (at least US). Believe me, like any other car, there are the weak spots when the AWD drags the car. Like the Speciale comparison. I'd roast him off the line but past 100 mph or so I'm done. TTS even takes the 12C to nearly 120 mph but after that it's lights out.

I can tell you for sure though that my TTS will make my M6 look silly and I assure you that the M6 with DP is faster than the M6 comp pkg. I had that press tune on my M5 and while there was a noticeable difference, once I added DP it was massive. When I put them on my M6 it really became a monster.

At the end of the day, in real world scenarios the TTS is going to make the M5/6 look silly. From a stop it would take so long for the M6 t catch up that the race would be over. ON any road with any turns at all I wouldn't even bother putting my M6 against the TTS. And even if we were at a good highway roll speed where the M6 might be close or faster I still would take the TTS all day because throwing the weight of the M6 around at those speeds is downright scary. I always tell my wife that in the TTS there is never rush hour because you can whip in and out of cars in front of you. In the M6 you have massive highway speed but you would rather just keep it in a straight line than try to weave it in and out. And heck, the M6 routinely will spin the rear end out on me when rolling on suburban roads when switching lanes at 30-40 mph and hitting the throttle. The power delivery and overall usability of the power in the TTS is just so far ahead of most cars.

[Tom C]

Originally Posted by ColdList

I still don't get how price is at all relative. Shit...must be a thing that you compare cars on and that's cool. I just don't understand that. They simply either compete or they don't. And now "quality"? GUARANTEED when the Z06 comes out and whips everyone's butt on the street and track (mind you my use of the word "everyone" here is again sort of a figure of speech and not an absolute) that not one person will say "oh but the Porsche is better quality so this is no true comparison". For that matter, in the interest of avoiding hypocrisy, you prob. shouldn't draw the comparison between a Porsche and your old GT-R.

I am surprised you resort to the old "in this situation" argument. Isn't that just tired by now?

But I digress. Here is another stupid Gustav rolling video that shows how a 997 TT makes the M5 look like a non-competitor. Now, bear in mind, this is a 997 so we are at similar prices. This actually would make it "competition" correct?

Tom, you and I don't usually get into this kind of thing. I don't care to. It really is silly. We both have points. Cool to disagree. I respect your opinions. All good here.

I only brought up my old GT-R because you were saying you would humble "everything" lined up against you in a straight line. I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of cars out there that can humble you.

Yes price is a definite factor in determining if one car is a competitor to another. If you did a poll, I am sure most would agree with me and you would be in a small minority. A '12 997.2TT equiped with a PDK had a base price of almost $140K, a little closer to the M5 but still substanially more expensive. Even a slightly used 997.2TT PDK still commands a higher price than most well equiped brand new M5's. But I don't believe comparing used to new...just making a point about how much of a price differential there really is between even that car (the one you now brought up) and the current M5.

But price is just one factor, there are other factors to determine a car's "competitor". Usually, size, function, quality of materials, and performance are all used. However, when one factor is so out of the range of deviation, it is no longer a "competitor". If you asked a representative at Porsche, if the M5 was a "competitor" to their 911 Carrera S, they would would say 'no, the Carrera S is a two door sports car and not comparable to a 4 door sedan in purpose, we have a Panamera model which is our performance sedan'. If you then posed the same question about the 911 Turbo, they would probably laugh and look at you funny since it would be ridiculous to them to even make the comparison because not only is it a 2 door sports car, but it is so much more expensive and chasing a whole different demographic of competitior (McLaren, Ferrari, Audi R8..etc).

The M6 is really the true BMW competitor to a 911 Turbo... 2 doors and 2+2 configuration and much closer in price.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Tom C

I only brought up my old GT-R because you were saying you would humble "everything" lined up against you in a straight line. I was merely pointing out that there are plenty of cars out there that can humble you.

Yes price is a definite factor in determining if one car is a competitor to another. If you did a poll, I am sure most would agree with me and you would be in a small minority. A '12 997.2TT equiped with a PDK had a base price of almost $140K, a little closer to the M5 but still substanially more expensive. Even a slightly used 997.2TT PDK still commands a higher price than most well equiped brand new M5's. But I don't believe comparing used to new...just making a point about how much of a price differential there really is between even that car (the one you now brought up) and the current M5.

But price is just one factor, there are other factors to determine a car's "competitor". Usually, size, function, quality of materials, and performance are all used. However, when one factor is so out of the range of deviation, it is no longer a "competitor". If you asked a representative at Porsche, if the M5 was a "competitor" to their 911 Carrera S, they would would say 'no, the Carrera S is a two door sports car and not comparable to a 4 door sedan in purpose, we have a Panamera model which is our performance sedan'. If you then posed the same question about the 911 Turbo, they would probably laugh and look at you funny since it would be ridiculous to them to even make the comparison because not only is it a 2 door sports car, but it is so much more expensive and chasing a whole different demographic of competitior (McLaren, Ferrari, Audi R8..etc).

The M6 is really the true BMW competitor to a 911 Turbo... 2 doors and 2+2 configuration and much closer in price.

Well said. Points taken.

Now do we need to get Vic's grandmother back in the driver's seat to settle this?-lol

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Let's also not forget torque rating as these are low speed rolling starts. This is why I said turbo vs. turbo.

M5=502
C2S=325
Panamera S=553 (590 overboost)

I have actually done these races in my M6 (pre-DP) against a new C4S from highway rolls at around 60 mph. M6 jumps it instantly. 1.5 lengths without even trying. With DP it would annihilate the C2S and C4S. I have never actually run the TTS vs the M6 but I can confidently say the TTS would leave the M6 in a similar fashion.

Originally Posted by ColdList

I can't make sense of that. Translated perhaps. Prob. is that M6 will hit limiter though (at least US). Believe me, like any other car, there are the weak spots when the AWD drags the car. Like the Speciale comparison. I'd roast him off the line but past 100 mph or so I'm done. TTS even takes the 12C to nearly 120 mph but after that it's lights out.

I can tell you for sure though that my TTS will make my M6 look silly and I assure you that the M6 with DP is faster than the M6 comp pkg. I had that press tune on my M5 and while there was a noticeable difference, once I added DP it was massive. When I put them on my M6 it really became a monster.

At the end of the day, in real world scenarios the TTS is going to make the M5/6 look silly. From a stop it would take so long for the M6 t catch up that the race would be over. ON any road with any turns at all I wouldn't even bother putting my M6 against the TTS. And even if we were at a good highway roll speed where the M6 might be close or faster I still would take the TTS all day because throwing the weight of the M6 around at those speeds is downright scary. I always tell my wife that in the TTS there is never rush hour because you can whip in and out of cars in front of you. In the M6 you have massive highway speed but you would rather just keep it in a straight line than try to weave it in and out. And heck, the M6 routinely will spin the rear end out on me when rolling on suburban roads when switching lanes at 30-40 mph and hitting the throttle. The power delivery and overall usability of the power in the TTS is just so far ahead of most cars.

haha you don't need to translate it. use your common sense
For sure the guy who drive super cars has strong common sense (take it as complement )
I didn't want to compare the M6 with 911TTS!
you said :" I have never actually run the TTS vs the M6 but I can confidently say the TTS would leave the M6 in a similar fashion" and I just wanted to show you the results! to me, there is no doubt that TTS is a perfect "super car"
but since M6 is a GT car they are not comparable
and about AWD vs RWD I think this discussion will never end between us so I let it go FOR NOW
BTW, Thanks for nice discussion

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by M6-Coupe

haha you don't need to translate it. use your common sense
For sure the guy who drive super cars has strong common sense (take it as complement )
I didn't want to compare the M6 with 911TTS!
you said :" I have never actually run the TTS vs the M6 but I can confidently say the TTS would leave the M6 in a similar fashion" and I just wanted to show you the results! to me, there is no doubt that TTS is a perfect "super car"
but since M6 is a GT car they are not comparable
and about AWD vs RWD I think this discussion will never end between us so I let it go FOR NOW
BTW, Thanks for nice discussion

Haha! Ok. For now I guess-lol

I am right though. I'm always right. Everyone knows that.......right? Except Vic of course. Often he thinks he's right...HE'S WRONG!!!!-lol

[M6-Coupe]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Haha! Ok. For now I guess-lol

I am right though. I'm always right. Everyone knows that.......right? Except Vic of course. Often he thinks he's right...HE'S WRONG!!!!-lol

haha you think so?
Don't go that far

[clar]

Will somebody please post a link to a Porsche 911 Turbo (99 anything) vs Golf GTi (stock). That would be a really relevant comparison cos they are both turbo and it should ideally be posted in the VAG forum...

[Vic55]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Well said. Points taken.

Now do we need to get Vic's grandmother back in the driver's seat to settle this?-lol

Originally Posted by ColdList

Haha! Ok. For now I guess-lol

I am right though. I'm always right. Everyone knows that.......right? Except Vic of course. Often he thinks he's right...HE'S WRONG!!!!-lol

Are you turning Douche on us?

I think you are now SummersList (Summers eve)

Why do you bring me into your losing battles LOLOLOL (oh no here comes a rant) haaaaaaa you know we are bestys Cold LOL

[Mbdurham17]

And still this is fun

[Mbdurham17]

To me the end all be all is price point if I spend xx amount I expect it to be faster than anything that is less $$or the same if I spend 140k on a 991 GT3 which I plan to do then I expect to be slower than a 200k turbo and faster than a 100k M5....it's all bang for the buck in my world....may even spend just 100k on a C7 zo6 but won't decide until I drive it .....I do not want to get outrun by anyone who spent less ..just my 2 cents

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by clar

Will somebody please post a link to a Porsche 911 Turbo (99 anything) vs Golf GTi (stock). That would be a really relevant comparison cos they are both turbo and it should ideally be posted in the VAG forum...

Oh here we go again!

So, let's talk about exactly how dollars bear no relevance "cos" u can c herrrr....

[u2b]

[/u2b]

Maybe I'll bring my TTS over to Singapore to show you how the Turbo matches the Non-Turbo Speciale....or you could just watch that video again.

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Vic55

Are you turning Douche on us?

I think you are now SummersList (Summers eve)

Why do you bring me into your losing battles LOLOLOL (oh no here comes a rant) haaaaaaa you know we are bestys Cold LOL

I didn't bring YOU in. I brought your grandmother!

I just pointed out your delusions-lol! I love you too! (here we go with that stuff again-hahahahaha!)

[ColdList]

Originally Posted by Mbdurham17

To me the end all be all is price point if I spend xx amount I expect it to be faster than anything that is less $$or the same if I spend 140k on a 991 GT3 which I plan to do then I expect to be slower than a 200k turbo and faster than a 100k M5....it's all bang for the buck in my world....may even spend just 100k on a C7 zo6 but won't decide until I drive it .....I do not want to get outrun by anyone who spent less ..just my 2 cents

Ummm...I confess. I did feel that way but I don't any more. For instance, the 458 is a WAY more involving car than the TTS. Would it bother me to lose the speed? Yes, probably. Would I get over it. Pretty sure that's a big yes.

Piss off Tim (before you comment here)

[Mbdurham17]

Originally Posted by ColdList

Ummm...I confess. I did feel that way but I don;t any more. For instance, the 458 is a WAY more involving car than the TTS. Would it bother me to lose the speed? Yes, probably. Would I get over it. Pretty sure that's a big yes.

Piss off Tim (before you comment here)

Yes but the difference is Porsche which you see quite often and honestly the layman knows no difference from a turbo or a Boxster and then there's a Ferrari which everyone knows.....I could not do that if I buy a 458 and someone who spent way less smoke me is be trading....$$$ = performance in the performance car world ....same with the M5 vs M6 to me could I have bought an M6 yes but why? When the M5 is much more practical with pretty much the same performance ? Same as GT3 vs C2S

Disclaimer I am pretty drunk