[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by fuddman

My guess is there wont be, as you put it, a "large price tag" on the M2.
That, IMO, would defeat the purpose BMW is building this car.

I think there is a difference between recognizing value and being in a position to pay for that value. M2 buyers are going to be able to recognize the value added in the M3/M4 that you mention; but, they wont be able to afford it. And, so, settle for lesser value, i.e., 4 colors, 1 interior, no power dome, etc., etc.
These are generalizations on my part. There are always exceptions. Still, though, from a marketing standpoint, I think this is how the M2 is positioned.

Well aren't we all so lucky to call $50k to start something other than a high price tag. Lol

$50k is more than the average car buyer in the U.S. is looking to spend so yeah, it's a high price tag. How small is the target market for this car? That's my point.

There are people who can afford this and another car but can probably afford the M4 as well, and those people will just buy the M4 for the most part. There are a small percentage who will pass the M4 for the M2.

There are some who can afford both, but those are also not the majority. They can afford a Porsche to fit their needs.

There will still be a LOT of buyers who will be priced out of a $50k car when $30k gets them close.

They can build 10,000 of these and I'm sure there won't be 10,000 lined up on day one to guarantee BMW sells out for the next three years. Eventually the supply will catch up and surpass demand because this is not a car for the masses or the market that can afford the M4. This is a car for a very specific market just as much economically as it is emotionally attached. Look at how the demand for the M235i eventually surpassed demand despite being impossible to find at first and there are still very few around.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by fuddman

I think there is a difference between recognizing value and being in a position to pay for that value. M2 buyers are going to be able to recognize the value added in the M3/M4 that you mention; but, they wont be able to afford it. And, so, settle for lesser value, i.e., 4 colors, 1 interior, no power dome, etc., etc.
These are generalizations on my part. There are always exceptions. Still, though, from a marketing standpoint, I think this is how the M2 is positioned.

You would be surprised to know how many owners of exotics also host a 1M inside their stable. Size matters - really. I'm convinced that 'compact' means for many keeping the car length under 4m50 (177.2 in). M2 will be. M3/M4 ain't anymore since the E9X.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Artemis

You would be surprised to know how many owners of exotics also host a 1M inside their stable. Size matters - really. I'm convinced that 'compact' means for many keeping the car length under 4m50 (177.2 in). M2 will be. M3/M4 ain't anymore since the E9X.

Truth.

[chmura]

I'm pretty sure everyone who can afford an M2 can afford a M4.

[fuddman]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Well aren't we all so lucky to call $50k to start something other than a high price tag.

I think your notion here is worth a lot of thought.

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

$50k is more than the average car buyer in the U.S. is looking to spend....

To me (and, I dare say, BMW, too), it's no longer about how much a buyer is willing to spend. It's how far out on a limb the buyer is willing to go. Or said another way, how far out on a limb BMWFS is willing to let the buyer go. So the guy with 8k in the bank and an income is going to give it a shot. And he may make it. Look at M3/M4 sales. I used to read about guys paying cash. No more. Everything is lease. Leveraging income. Don't think BMW is counting on that? Lease=huge money for BMW.

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

How small is the target market for this car? That's my point. This is a car for a very specific market ......

I don't know what BMW sees as the target market. Whatever it may be, BMW seems to think in 3 years they can can sell 10,000 of these to that market.

So, what is the specific market you see for the car?

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by fuddman

I think your notion here is worth a lot of thought.

To me (and, I dare say, BMW, too), it's no longer about how much a buyer is willing to spend. It's how far out on a limb the buyer is willing to go. Or said another way, how far out on a limb BMWFS is willing to let the buyer go. So the guy with 8k in the bank and an income is going to give it a shot. And he may make it. Look at M3/M4 sales. I used to read about guys paying cash. No more. Everything is lease. Leveraging income. Don't think BMW is counting on that? Lease=huge money for BMW.

I don't know what BMW sees as the target market. Whatever it may be, BMW seems to think in 3 years they can can sell 10,000 of these to that market.

So, what is the specific market you see for the car?

I see the market as retired folks with disposable income and a love for small cars. I see it also pulling the young professionals who can afford a wide range of sporty cars but prefer a small coupe and find the $750 a month lease an attractive one.

But the truth is that the retired guys with a bit of money are increasingly satisfied with lower spec cars nowadays since they're so good. A 228i is a respectable performer. Why spend more on the M2? That leaves the young professionals who are probably young enough to be torn between spending so much when a 370z is capable and looks the part. It won't be on par with an M2 stock for stock but they still have years to dream and might wait until they can afford an M4.

Again, look at the number of M235i's on the street. Rare to see one. That's not because BMW doesn't build enough. It's because there aren't lots of buyers in the small coupe segment. Especially not at $40, much less at $50k. I don't think BMW will have a hard time moving 10,000 units, but they also won't have legions of buyers lining up either.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by fuddman

I think there is a difference between recognizing value and being in a position to pay for that value. M2 buyers are going to be able to recognize the value added in the M3/M4 that you mention; but, they wont be able to afford it. And, so, settle for lesser value, i.e., 4 colors, 1 interior, no power dome, etc., etc.
These are generalizations on my part. There are always exceptions. Still, though, from a marketing standpoint, I think this is how the M2 is positioned.

The reasoning that M2 owners cannot afford an M4 is flawed. Personally, I do not see myself buying an M4, even if offered at M2 price. It's a bold statement, I know, but I ain't kidding. As I commented earlier: the M4 is just too big for my taste.

For your info: last February Porsche Cars North America sent out an email to those on the 918 VIP 'early access' program that allows those 'privilege customers' to reserve a Cayman GT4 allocation ahead of the normal 'line' ("It is my pleasure to offer you, per your 918 Spyder VIP privileges, the opportunity to be among the first to acquire the new Cayman GT4"). PCNA offered the 918 Spyder customers one week to decide. Subsequently PCNA allocated the remaining expected production to Porsche dealers.

PCNA did not present this Cayman GT4 priority offer as: "Listen here, all you US owners who already shelled out at least $845K for one of our cars: we got the poor man's 911 GT3 RS on offer for you. This one got three pedals and a stick. Starts at $84.6K. Yes, we did the math for you: only 10% of the one you got already. We didn't overcharge you for that one, so this makes it definitely a bargain for this one. Drop us a line. You got seven days."

Yup, some petrolheads with (very) deep pockets like to play with great compact toys too. And premium car manufacturers know that very well.

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The reasoning that M2 owners cannot afford an M4 is flawed. Personally, I do not see myself buying an M4, even if offered at M2 price. It's a bold statement, I know, but I ain't kidding. As I commented earlier: the M4 is just too big for my taste.

For your info: last February Porsche Cars North America sent out an email to those on the 918 VIP 'early access' program that allows those 'privilege customers' to reserve a Cayman GT4 allocation ahead of the normal 'line' ("It is my pleasure to offer you, per your 918 Spyder VIP privileges, the opportunity to be among the first to acquire the new Cayman GT4"). PCNA offered the 918 Spyder customers one week to decide. Subsequently PCNA allocated the remaining expected production to Porsche dealers.

PCNA did not present this Cayman GT4 priority offer as: "Listen here, all you US owners who already shelled out at least $845K for one of our cars: we got the poor man's 911 GT3 RS on offer for you. This one got three pedals and a stick. Starts at $84.6K. Yes, we did the math for you: only 10% of the one you got already. We didn't overcharge you for that one, so this makes it definitely a bargain for this one. Drop us a line. You got seven days."

Yup, some petrolheads with (very) deep pockets like to play with great compact toys too. And premium car manufacturers know that very well.

Attachment 1248097

A bold statement indeed. The justification for an M2 being that it has the smaller chassis. Literally just that and nothing else over its bigger siblings.
I can see getting the mythical CSL but I hope that the regular M2 doesn't disappoint.
The fact I still lurk in this forum says enough. I want this car to succeed, I'm just a bit suspicious and hopefully wrong!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Bemo

I want this car to succeed, I'm just a bit suspicious and hopefully wrong!

Makes sense.

The M3/M4 seems to be positioned by BMW as if it were a beech tree: it almost does not allow plants to grow under it.

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Makes sense.

The M3/M4 seems to be positioned by BMW as if it were a beech tree: it almost does not allow plants to grow under it.

Agreed, it sucks but such is the family tree. Maybe a generational defeat is appropriate. I would have bumped up the performance so that each subsequent generation is better than the larger sibling's prior generation.
M2 should be able to defeat an E92M3 and the next gen. M2 should put out better numbers than the F80/82 but wishful thinking, either way.

[metrickid]

Originally Posted by chmura

I'm pretty sure everyone who can afford an M2 can afford a M4.

In the US maybe. I have to pay around $40k more for a F8x over the F87.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by chmura

I'm pretty sure everyone who can afford an M2 can afford a M4.

I sure wish I could afford to think like this.... Or... then again.. maybe I don't...

ALL M4 buyers can afford an M2 - CORRECT
ALL M2 buyers can afford an M4 - FALSE!

Originally Posted by Rossifumi

In the US maybe. I have to pay around $40k more for a F8x over the F87.

he's woefully incorrect. There are many buyers here in the US that will be struggling to get an M2 at $52K Us.
For many Americans. the extra 10-12K here for an M3/4 is absolutely a large step up.





Personally... I stretched for the 1M... after never paying more than 30 K for a new vehicle in my entire life. And I bet many customers of the M2 will do the same.. particularly buyers moving up from a 128/135 or moving from the Evo or the STI or Nissan 350/370..


the 1M basically sold in two ways...

1- stripper - car with one or two options - around 46-47K
2- loaded - all options - around 54-55K

Most of the dealers ordered cars loaded... " it's a top of the line car.. so why not load it to the gills "... Many buyers specified a stripper... No power seats... less weight.

[W///]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

I sure wish I could afford to think like this.... Or... then again.. maybe I don't...



he's woefully incorrect. There are many buyers here in the US that will be struggling to get an M2 at 52K Us. The extra 10-12K here for an M3/4 is absolutely a large step up.


Personally... I stretched for the 1M... after never paying more than 30 K for a new vehicle in my entire life. And I bet many customers of the M2 will do the same.. particularly buyers moving up from a 128/135 or moving from the Evo or the STI or Nissan 350/370..


the 1M basically sold in two ways...

1- stripper - car with one or two options - around 46-47K
2- loaded - all options - around 54-55K

Most of the dealers ordered cars loaded... " it's a top of the line car.. so why not load it to the gills "... Many buyers specified a stripper... No power seats... less weight.

Agreed. But I know in my group of friends, $50k is nothing to sneeze at (apart from the 1 guy that is about to take delivery of his GT4 ). It's still a big amount of money for me too.

I can do an M3, but it would just mean at a later time instead of next summer.

That's why I'm so passionate about this car. It's not just a lease special that I plan on dumping in 3-4 years. I plan to keep this car for good along with the E92.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by W///

Agreed. But I know in my group of friends, $50k is nothing to sneeze at (apart from the 1 guy that is about to take delivery of his GT4 ). It's still a big amount of money for me too.

I can do an M3, but it would just mean at a later time instead of next summer.

That's why I'm so passionate about this car. It's not just a lease special that I plan on dumping in 3-4 years. I plan to keep this car for good along with the E92.

The lease rates on the 1M were horrible. interesting you mention that.. Should be interesting if they are similarly nonsensical on the M2.... and I bet they will be... just another incentive for buyers that don't want the smaller chassis to move (on up) to the M3/M4

[W///]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

The lease rates on the 1M were horrible. interesting you mention that.. Should be interesting if they are similarly nonsensical on the M2.... and I bet they will be... just another incentive for buyers that don't want the smaller chassis to move (on up) to the M3/M4

I have to admit I've never even looked at lease rates before, I've always bought my cars used. Thus why the idea of a $70k+ Cayman S has never even crossed my mind

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

The lease rates on the 1M were horrible. interesting you mention that.. Should be interesting if they are similarly nonsensical on the M2.... and I bet they will be... just another incentive for buyers that don't want the smaller chassis to move (on up) to the M3/M4

That would be a fail on BMW's part if they are truly marketing this as the budget M model. The 1M is really not a model to look toward since it was such a unique endeavor, financially. While mechanically the 1M and the M2 can be comparable, the economics of the two cars is likely very different. The 1M was never meant to be an entry level vehicle into the M market, but the M2 is looking to be that way.

I'm not saying they have to provide lease rates on par with their bread and butter 3 series, but rates comparable to the non-M models would be the way to go. You cannot gain conquest sales from the Japanese marques if they end up leasing $400 less per month and provide 80% of what BMW has on offer.

If they make this car unattractive financially, all they will do is pull potential M3/4 buyers that have the money and are willing to spend it on a smaller car, which is not their intention. BMW's lease rates are all about conquest, and this car is supposed to pull in those buyers with crappy lease rates? I don't think so.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by W///

I have to admit I've never even looked at lease rates before, I've always bought my cars used. Thus why the idea of a $70k+ Cayman S has never even crossed my mind

Hey now!

[W///]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Hey now!

Only because P-cars are above my league for now. You need to give a new update in your thread about how you are liking your car so far!

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by W///

Only because P-cars are above my league for now. You need to give a new update in your thread about how you are liking your car so far!

I was just joking with you - I had a similar "limit" before I went and drove them - after that, I was screwed....

Will definitely post an update soon - it's a very interesting car.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

That would be a fail on BMW's part if they are truly marketing this as the budget M model. The 1M is really not a model to look toward since it was such a unique endeavor, financially. While mechanically the 1M and the M2 can be comparable, the economics of the two cars is likely very different. The 1M was never meant to be an entry level vehicle into the M market, but the M2 is looking to be that way.

I'm not saying they have to provide lease rates on par with their bread and butter 3 series, but rates comparable to the non-M models would be the way to go. You cannot gain conquest sales from the Japanese marques if they end up leasing $400 less per month and provide 80% of what BMW has on offer.

If they make this car unattractive financially, all they will do is pull potential M3/4 buyers that have the money and are willing to spend it on a smaller car, which is not their intention. BMW's lease rates are all about conquest, and this car is supposed to pull in those buyers with crappy lease rates? I don't think so.

Your thinking is almost.. daresay... so... AMERICAN.. BMW AG isn't looking to compare with Japanese cars or American cars.. They already have stiff competition right in their same country from Porsche and Audi and Mercedes......

The 1m was INTRODUCED as an entry level vehicle into the M market oh my.. See BMW m coupe step 1

While BMW AG does desire to bring a lesser expensive M car to market... they don't intend to give it away... M car pricing is typically a large jump over underlying models. They DON'T provide attractive lease rates....to move M cars... As a general rule.. they don't do lease discounts and sales except typically on the BOTTOM car in the lineup (See F80 320... Z3 1.9.. Z4 2.5....base model 5...) Sometimes they even decline to provide Euro Delivery...

they don't market like Chevrolet ...

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I was just joking with you - I had a similar "limit" before I went and drove them - after that, I was screwed....

Exactly why I haven't test driven at Cayman... (I've ridden right seat in several however)

[bradleyland]

Lease rates on the M2 will be fine. Leasing companies hate risk. The 1M was the first car in its line. This means the leasing companies had no market resale data to work with. The strong resale value of the 1M will help leasing companies establish better risk models for the M2. Hence, lease rates on the M2 won't be as ridiculous as the 1M.