Dead battery makes man locked out of his Te$la unless he pays $26k for a new one...

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

No logical fallacy. Either you want to end mobile emissions of carbon fuels or you don't. Logic dictates that if a lot of carbon emissions are bad, then so are small amounts. California is not the entire US, it has decided to ban ICE in 13 years; logic says California sees all ICE emissions as bad.

As great fathers do, my old man taught me a great lesson. 1983 in the kitchen of his house on Whittier Blvd. For years I used to give my Mom a ration of shit about smoking cigarettes. I was concerned about her health. One day frustrated as shit, my dad turns to me pissed and says, "You ride motorcycles, do you not think your mother worries about you?" I STFU right then and there. I never said another word about cigarettes. I got the point.

Taken to its logical conclusion, it would mean that no one is any position to argue anything unless they are perfect.

You can be right and a hypocrite at the same time.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

of course, just typical

when the conversation isn't going YOUR way, then censorship is your answer, instead of free and open debate

i know you'd love to stay in your echo chamber and not hear a challenging thought , but people need answers, not propaganda

No. I'd love to debate, but there's no debate here. Unreliable sources and anecdotes are frequently cited as facts by most, and credible sources get attacked or ignored. Brandolini's law is in effect. It takes an order of magnitude more effort to refute bullshit than to spread it in the first place. This thread is full of low quality information and it would take too much time to be worth it.

Let's be real about who has the echo chamber here. Anytime there is an EV mentioned or front page article about one it gets turned into total garbage by like-minded individuals that you happen to agree with. The only propagandist here is the one that creates EV scare / shock / outrage porn threads on a BMW forum. Maybe you're an unwitting propagandist, but that just makes it more sad.

Bimmerpost isn't the place for you to "wake up the sheeple". Most people come here to get away from that. The Politics and Religion sub was removed for various good reasons.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

I didn't get a model 3 because i think "it's better for the environment".

I don't give 2 shits about the environment. My previous corvette had long tubes with no cats. I loved the sound and even the exhaust fumes whenever i drove it. Felt like a real race car.

I got the model 3 because i love the way they drive, love the simplicity, love the speed, love the technology. It's a car club within itself, even if you want no part of it.

Owning my M3 for almost a year now, i've gotten one thumbs up. From a dude in a sentra. Every other M car or BMW drives like dickheads. Cutting me off, trying to race, tail gating me.

Tesla drivers always wave to each other and acknowledge each other like actual human beings. Even if you don't want that attention from them, they give it to you.

That’s sad you don’t care about the environment. I shouldn’t be surprised as elitist are hypocrites. I do agree, many BMW drivers are careless but so are Tesla owners as I find they love to blast off when the green hits and many times they don’t use the dang blinker. Granted, this is common with a lot of people in many brands of cars. I own a lifted 200 series and get lots of thumbs up, respectful comments and waves from many different type of brand owners. Never from an EV owner though. People will chat with me at gas stations or stopped at red lights, etc. I don’t need the reassurance about my ownership but maybe it makes you feel good to own a bland egg shaped car. Lol! My cruiser will here long after your egg shaped car dies. However, you don’t care because you’re anti-environment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by jmg

I care about my health, do you? I also ate a cheese-burger yesterday. Do you only eat salads and lean meats? Does eating a cheeseburger mean I don't care about my health?

No, of course not. It means I am a flawed human being. Sorry you don't get to force your standards on others and tell them what they do and do not care about based on their actions just because you disagree with them.

I do care about my health and only eat organic grass-fed and grass finished meats and a ton of organic greens. Granted, I’m a natural body builder who teaches Krav Maga as a side gig, so staying in top top is very important. Yea, eating a cheeseburger means you lack the discipline to eat healthy. Just messing with you, I eat a cheeseburger once a month but it’s from a killer brewery.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by chris719

Rare earth metals aren't rare. It's a historical misnomer. Please do some research before you parrot things. Also, the "rare" earths used in batteries are being mostly phased out. Lithium is the number one issue and the top 3 sources are Chile, Australia, and Argentina. China is 4th.

No, they are rare. My uncle literally reviews and helps setup mining operations. You must be getting your resources from people who aren’t actually in the business of mining. Operations in rare earth metals are getting harder to mine and he was recently contracted by a Chinese company to evaluate a potentially massive mining operation in Afghanistan. Because these metals are indeed rare, they are very expensive to mine and the cost is carried onto the consumer as why ev batteries will not decrease in price for the foreseeable future. You should buy a plane ticket and travel to one of these operations and see for yourself the damage that is being created. I haven’t personally but I get to see a lot of photos from the places he travels to. Talk about depressing!

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Cost to manufacture =/= cost to purchase when you need it in 8-10 years.

Antiquated tech costs more than contemporary tech. I'm not anticipating I'll need to buy a new battery for an EV while the EV is still new, I'm anticipating I'll need it when it becomes antiquated.





dis·pos·al
/dəˈspōzəl/

noun
1.
the action or process of throwing away or getting rid of something.

dis·pos·a·ble
/dəˈspōzəb(ə)l/

adjective
1.
(of an article) intended to be used once, or until no longer useful, and then thrown away.
"disposable diapers"


You described leasing and getting rid of the car before it has problems as a viable strategy. Don't tell me you don't believe it now...



I won't respond/defend something I've not said.




It's been the same process for the last 30 years. It's the same process today. I take it you've never taken a car to scrap yard? I have. It looks just like that video. They dump the ground up pieces into a kiln like vessel and burn it till the metal melts and everything else has vaporized (smoke) or floated to the top as impurities and taken to a dump.

It takes a lot of energy to do this, and makes a lot of toxic emissions and trash.




technically, it's recycled as new plant matter. That's where the carbon and Hydrogen molecules in the long chain hydrocarbons came from after it was distilled from the crude oil. Plants pulled it out of the atmosphere using photosynthesis, and it slowly durned into crude. The hydrocarbons were sequestered for millennia, then pulled up by humans and reacted with oxygen (burned), releasing energy and carbon dioxide. It's what plants crave.



20% improvement of what ?

taking a average cars lifespan and reducing it due to a drivetrain/technology shift is not making progress on maximizing the energy/resources that went into that car. The process for repurposing those resources is expensive and very dirty. Given the stated goal of being not-dirty, I don't see how there is progress being made.




When the show up here you can take credit for them. Until then?




A lot of wars have been lost with that ideology.

JMG asked me if used oil can be recycled and then asks you if gasoline can be recycled. YES to both and thank you for explaining it. I remember learning this in grade school and then an 8th grade D.C trip and seeing an amazing visual display of it at the science Smithsonian.

Ok, I’m done with this comment section. Pretty much a waste of my time as people will believe what they want and find “facts” from sites that only agree with them. Good luck powering all these Evs as the grid will never catch up and power costs will eventually skyrocket. Elitist minded people don’t care how costs effect anyone less then them. Just a bunch of “luck at me” selfish human-beings.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

No, they are rare. My uncle literally reviews and helps setup mining operations. You must be getting your resources from people who aren’t actually in the business of mining. Operations in rare earth metals are getting harder to mine and he was recently contracted by a Chinese company to evaluate a potentially massive mining operation in Afghanistan. Because these metals are indeed rare, they are very expensive to mine and the cost is carried onto the consumer as why ev batteries will not decrease in price for the foreseeable future. You should buy a plane ticket and travel to one of these operations and see for yourself the damage that is being created. I haven’t personally but I get to see a lot of photos from the places he travels to. Talk about depressing!

Rare, scarce.. whatever.. certainly in greater demand than there is supply with no ramp up plan for the oncoming growth. Today a Model 3 has ~7000-8000 individual battery cells making up each car's battery pack assemblies. Now you need to scale that demand by more than 2 orders of magnitude.. not just for lithium mining, but for manufacturing, assembly and delivery. And since it is being forced ahead of the technology / infra curve, something has to give.

My prediction is more government intervention.. Lithium will effectively be rationed in the form of regulating battery power per vehicle. No production Plaids, S, X, Lucids, eHellCats, quad, triple or dual motors. Everyone will have their single motor bubble / jelly bean cars with no more than x : y power to weight ratio (or however it is restricted).

High powered dual or greater motors / aftermarket hi KW batteries will be analogous to supercars and similarly attainable to those who have the means.

[Angelo_GraysonMiniBMW]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

Rare, scarce.. whatever.. certainly in greater demand than there is supply with no ramp up plan for the oncoming growth. Today a Model 3 has ~7000-8000 individual battery cells making up each car's battery pack assemblies. Now you need to scale that demand by more than 2 orders of magnitude.. not just for lithium mining, but for manufacturing, assembly and delivery. And since it is being forced ahead of the technology / infra curve, something has to give.

My prediction is more government intervention.. Lithium will effectively be rationed in the form of regulating battery power per vehicle. No production Plaids, S, X, Lucids, eHellCats, quad, triple or dual motors. Everyone will have their single motor bubble / jelly bean cars with no more than x : y power to weight ratio (or however it is restricted).

High powered dual or greater motors / aftermarket hi KW batteries will be analogous to supercars and similarly attainable to those who have the means.

Exactly!

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

the politics section was great tbh. it allows everyone to say what they are thinking in automony. you learn just how stupid people are. the same people arguing for covid mandates and lockdowns are the same people defending EVs.

like someone said above, its all about choice to me. yall can do whatever the fuck yall please. but please allow me the same. but we don't like that anymore and more and more freedoms taken away so short-minded people can be pacified.

Im all about hybrids.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

People with Masters degrees and PhD degrees do not share your opinion

ah being a drug dealer myself, the argument of authority...which I never go out on. was just kicked to the curb

Now cars and electric grids, idk what I am talking about. I think we should go electric as people would like, let the market speak for itself. tbh electrics will dominate. not many car enthusiasts left. and electric is feasible for more than 80% of people. This thread really got derailed because one day some asshat will wake up and go...how do I make my political campaign more extreme then the next asshat. annnd boom I am going to BAN all ICE.

anyways I digress.

this topic is going as expected on bimmerpost.

you have this discussion on teslapost and it will be the opposite.

so life goes on

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

No, they are rare. My uncle literally reviews and helps setup mining operations. You must be getting your resources from people who aren’t actually in the business of mining. Operations in rare earth metals are getting harder to mine and he was recently contracted by a Chinese company to evaluate a potentially massive mining operation in Afghanistan. Because these metals are indeed rare, they are very expensive to mine and the cost is carried onto the consumer as why ev batteries will not decrease in price for the foreseeable future. You should buy a plane ticket and travel to one of these operations and see for yourself the damage that is being created. I haven’t personally but I get to see a lot of photos from the places he travels to. Talk about depressing!

Why don't you list what rare earth metals are used in EV batteries?

Rare earths are not rare, this is a WELL known fact. I don't care what your uncle's buddy's cousin's friend knows or thinks. The concentration of rare earths in the Earth's crust is around 150 to 220 ppm, which is higher than copper. Only a few of the 17, like thulium, are actually rare and the rarest few don't have as many industrial uses. Even still, there is estimated to be thulium deposits around 125x the amount of gold left. They just haven't been profitable enough to look hard for and some of them may be hard to mine given the mineral compositions they frequently appear in. Hard to mine != rare.

The 2 that are of the most concern are neodymium and dysprosium, but it's not batteries, it's magnets. Nd is obviously the main constituent of top quality permanent magnets, and Dy is a dopant for the magnets. They are already being designed out of current and future EV motors. Some of Tesla's drive units already shipping are PM free.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/mahles-ele...ma-no-contacts

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Angelo1

That’s sad you don’t care about the environment. I shouldn’t be surprised as elitist are hypocrites. I do agree, many BMW drivers are careless but so are Tesla owners as I find they love to blast off when the green hits and many times they don’t use the dang blinker. Granted, this is common with a lot of people in many brands of cars. I own a lifted 200 series and get lots of thumbs up, respectful comments and waves from many different type of brand owners. Never from an EV owner though. People will chat with me at gas stations or stopped at red lights, etc. I don’t need the reassurance about my ownership but maybe it makes you feel good to own a bland egg shaped car. Lol! My cruiser will here long after your egg shaped car dies. However, you don’t care because you’re anti-environment. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Why would I care? Anything anyone can do to “help” the environment won’t be shown in our lifetime.

Do you care about the environment? If so sell all your cars and ride a bicycle.

I got my model 3 because I love the way it drives. I don’t care about the politics surrounding it. I think EV is a great idea.

So yeah I’ll drive around in my egg shaped car which is the best selling EV on the market next to the model Y.

Nothing comes close to it when you compare price point, performance, usability, charging network and range all in one.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY

Now cars and electric grids, idk what I am talking about. I think we should go electric as people would like, let the market speak for itself. tbh electrics will dominate. not many car enthusiasts left. and electric is feasible for more than 80% of people. This thread really got derailed because one day some asshat will wake up and go...how do I make my political campaign more extreme then the next asshat. annnd boom I am going to BAN all ICE.

anyways I digress.

this topic is going as expected on bimmerpost.

you have this discussion on teslapost and it will be the opposite.

so life goes on

the point is, why you see this thread is this stuff is not by consensus of the people, it's being forced fed down our throats by un elected beaureacrats in the EU and WEF, and corrupt bought and paid for politicians, NOT the people!

this is being done in fact to the detriment and cost to the people ,meanwhile it will make dictatorships like china more powerful and wealthy, the cherry on top is those dictatorships dont even have to follow the same carbon and green 'targets' that these cucked countries in NA and Europe have to

that is what these pole smoking politicians never mention and just because some (fake) news outlet writes an article or make a video repeating the same thing over and over , about the 'inevitable' move to EV, people think its a forgone conclusion!

they trying to turn us into those people living in demolition man , I'll say hellllll no

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by chris719

Why don't you list what rare earth metals are used in EV batteries?

Rare earths are not rare, this is a WELL known fact. I don't care what your uncle's buddy's cousin's friend knows or thinks. The concentration of rare earths in the Earth's crust is around 150 to 220 ppm, which is higher than copper. Only a few of the 17, like thulium, are actually rare and the rarest few don't have as many industrial uses. Even still, there is estimated to be thulium deposits around 125x the amount of gold left. They just haven't been profitable enough to look hard for and some of them may be hard to mine given the mineral compositions they frequently appear in. Hard to mine != rare.

The 2 that are of the most concern are neodymium and dysprosium, but it's not batteries, it's magnets. Nd is obviously the main constituent of top quality permanent magnets, and Dy is a dopant for the magnets. They are already being designed out of current and future EV motors. Some of Tesla's drive units already shipping are PM free.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/mahles-ele...ma-no-contacts

never go full cuckoo for cocoa puffs

[chris719]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

never go full cuckoo for cocoa puffs

You ask why I don't want to debate? Read your own post. There can't be a productive discussion.

[freakystyly]

Originally Posted by chris719

Why don't you list what rare earth metals are used in EV batteries?

Cobalt was the mystery element according to the googles. Not jumping in on either side, just trying to bring some google info.

[BGM-M3COMP]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...-cars-by-2030/



Getting closer!!

[chris719]

Originally Posted by freakystyly

Cobalt was the mystery element according to the googles. Not jumping in on either side, just trying to bring some google info.

Yeah, correct. Nickel Manganese Cobalt Li-Ion is a common high power density battery chemistry. NMC is being being phased out, but currently the DRC dominates all other producers of cobalt. It's also not especially rare. The electronics industry has been wary of central Africa for 2 decades now after the bloodshed over coltan / tantalum.

[Housekeeping]

Originally Posted by dizz81

Until you need to turn or brake. Then the only thing getting crushed is your EV as it rolls over and over.

You obviously haven’t driven a newer Tesla.

[XutvJet]

EVs are not the automotive "future", they are part of the future.

Putting all your brown eggs in one basket and throwing out the existing white eggs makes absolutely no sense and government officials that have implemented these EV mandates will learn that it is just not feasible or realistic for the general public to only have EVs.

Like others noted, the cost of long-term ownership of an EV is potentially immense. Low and medium income households that will be forced to drive 10+ y/o EVs because of a new or lightly used EV cost cannot afford a five figure battery replacement or motor replacement repair that will likely come about at the 8-10 year mark. And that too is the biggest maintenance issue with EVs, the power source and motor aren't really serviceable. That's a big problem.

In addition to EVs, the future needs to be improved ICE efficiency (not necessarily more power; basic cars are getting plenty powerful now), more efficient gas/electric hybrid drivetrains, and alternate fuels for ICE motors like hydrogen cell, etc. There is plenty of technology out there now to to improve ICE efficiency. It terms of emissions, ICE motors are extremely clean now. The real efficiency focus needs to be on light trucks and SUVs. They have escaped efficiency focus for too long now.

And yeah, as someone pointed out, lithium and other battery element mining is a total environmental disaster. I'm an environmental consultant with almost 25 years of professional environmental investigation, remediation, litigation, and compliance experience for all types of sites across the globe. The way these materials are mined and solutioned out is environmentally damaging, water and energy intenisive, and downright dangerous from a human exposure consideration. I promise you that you'd not want to live within 20 miles of one of these mines.

Reduce, reuse, recycle, and improve efficiency need to be the focus and not just "let's end ICE motors".

And finally, to hell with LA and their stronghold on Federal air emissions regulations. It's their damn fault for overdeveloping a low-land desert area smack dab between mountain ranges on all sides that hold in air contaminates. The rest of us should not have to pay for their problems.

[dizz81]

Originally Posted by Sy1616

You obviously haven’t driven a newer Tesla.

Nor do I ever care to.

[Nahlem]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

improve efficiency need to be the focus and not just "let's end ICE motors".

Here lies the big problem in general for humans and innovation to be fair. Sens ICE car became the norm they still haven't managed to make it 0 local emission. And now when the governments of the world start applying pressure then they said "Well we can innovate them to become more efficient"

Then my answer is imidietly then why didn't you do it before if you can suddenly now? Its not like suddenly that specific tech became available, to make them super efficient and 0 local emissions.

Again as anything when it comes to companies that grows to large like the automotive industry that has been paying off politicians for so long to not put in any legislation on them because there was far more money to make off people releasing a "new" engine every year that is a little better then the last.

And now suddenly we are seeing ICE evangelists crying about "We can make the ICE engine super efficient", and to that i say well you had your chance and you didn't take it when you had and now your out and let the new tech take your place, but also thinking EVs is the solution to all our problems then you are just kidding your self, they are a part of the solution but not the end game.

There is so much more to be done in this aspect that hasn't been done but can be done because someone is paying of someone to not legislate. In a perfect world the governments of the world would be this super incorruptible human beings, but alas thats not the world we are living in.

We humans would benefit far more if we could get our shizzle together and make Fusion energy a real thing imidietly but as the long running joke goes its always 50 years away and in 50 years again lets hope it will be a 40 year away joke instead.

But as of now our fossils fuels needs to be used for better purpose then being used to propel our vehicles no matter it be a car or an air plane the oil needs to be put to better use then for people to giggle every time their car makes pops and bangs out of the exhaust when driving it.

Therefore ICE vehicles needs to be put to the past so we can use fossils fuels for better usage then this.

We can develop some better tech and gives them as much fun as ICE cars but without harming the environment all to much. So in that EVs are not the solution for all but a part of it.

But being a human being is harming the environment, but if we can reduce our damaging footprint on it whether it be by switching away from fossil fuels to recycling more of our old stuff the better, we just need to make sure it pays more to recycle and innovate then to keep going down the same path as always and not changing.