Basic Question: Is it the Driver or is it the Car?

[dradernh]

Full disclosure: I tune in to F1 very infrequently. That's because, I think, and as one who does tune-in only rarely, most of what I've observed have been processions. That is, little in the way of what I think of as racing.

Having observed from afar the vagaries of total studs' results after changing teams, a total noob like myself feels compelled to ask the experts: is it more about the driver, the car, or some identifiable and communicable combination of the two?

My purpose in asking is that I'm a very technically oriented person, and I'd like to get enthused about F1 if there's space in there for me to do so.

All replies gratefully accepted!

[FC4]

Both. But more driver than the car.

[Car-Addicted]

It's the money that makes it fast!

[pikkagtr]

The car has the potential and the driver unlocks it
But it's mostly the car.
Follow the monies

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

It's the money that makes it fast!

The car won't be fast , If the driver is an idiot.

[Pauly Wauly]

Both, but a faster car will make a driver look superior to other drivers.

[Rono63]

I think Max and RB is a good example.
Last year RB had the superior car and with Max driving he had a record breaking dominant season.

This season with other teams improving their cars, specifically McLearn.
RB currently do not have the fastest car and are not winning.

So even with who most people consider the best driver in F1, Max still needs a fast car to win.

[MontyB1]

As above from all need a good car and in F1 you still need a good driver.

But if it’s a Mercedes and your Lewis Hamilton it’s all the car.
If it’s a Red Bull it’s not the car and it’s all Max Verstappen.

The above it’s absolutely stupid I hasten to add the best drivers can and do get more out of a car than their team mate. Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, Verstappen all fall in that bucket.

[Roman]

It's the car. Period. Full stop.

There is a greater disparity between cars than there is between drivers. On a scale of 1-10, the worst driver on the grid is a 6 or 7 but the worst car on the grid is a 2. Lewis Hamilton will never win a race in a Williams.

Let's take the 2020 season as an example. Mercedes is dominant (and that's an understatement). Williams is not. Lewis Hamilton is untouchable in his Mercedes. George Russell is constantly a back marker in his Williams. Lewis Hamilton gets covid and is forced to miss a race. George Russell gets to drive his car. If not for a botched pit stop, George would have won that race. How do you go from always finishing P19 or P20 to P1 in the span of a week? Did he suddenly develop driving skills? Did he take a class during the week to improve his driving?

IT'S

THE

CAR.

To be clear, I'm not taking anything away from anyone's favorite driver. Just take the blinders off and look at the objective facts. Why did it take 3 years for Lewis to win a race? Valteri used to win races when he was with Mercedes but he hasn't won squat with Sauber and he didn't win squat when he was at Williams. So he was only a good driver when he was at Mercedes? Nonsense.

It's the car.

[c1pher]

It’s both. If you compare two drivers from one constructor, there is always a performance difference. Granted they field perhaps slightly different mods and may use alternating strategies but if Checko were better or equal to Max, Checko would beat Max at least half the time or come close. But then you see constructors like Williams always at the back of the pack. Obviously their cars are not nearly as competitive. But again you see Albon consistently beats Sargent despite having the same car.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dradernh

is it more about the driver, the car, or some identifiable and communicable combination of the two?

Mohammed Ben Sulayem: former rally driver and one of the most successful Middle East Rally Championship drivers, winning 14 titles; current FIA president.

2009: Ben Sulayem drives a Renault R28 F1 car in Dubai:

But sheer talent, with the race skills to extract the maximum out of a bad car, is not enough. Part of the equation is also luck and self-restraint to stay out of trouble.

I recall asking someone of the sports car industry whether Schumacher, Vettel or Rosberg was the greatest German driver ever. The answer: "Stefan Bellof".

Bellof was a German exceptional race driver who was very likely on his way in the mid 80s to achieve top success in F1, possibly even getting WDC titles. Unfortunately a very promising future that never happened: in 1985 he died at the age of 27 in a tragic car crash at Eau Rouge in Spa-Francorchamps (a bold - borderline reckless - 'elbows out' overtake maneuver on multiple champion Jacky Ickx went horribly wrong). Bellof had already signed a contract for the 1986 F1 season with Ferrari.

• "He is the greatest talent I have ever met." (Jackie Stewart, 1984 in "Der Spiegel")
• "Every German racing driver knows who Stefan Bellof was." (Sebastian Vettel)
• "Stefan was the best of all drivers. He was a thoroughbred racer who could also get the last out of a rubbish car." (Rudi Walch, technical engineer at Brun Motorsport)
• "Bellof was a mix between Schumacher and Gilles Villeneuve." (Michael "Herbie" Blash (FIA))
• "Regarding his talent and everything what he has recently shown, without a doubt, he is one of the very, very, very best." (Hans-Joachim Stuck)

[mjj]

Originally Posted by Roman

It's the car. Period. Full stop.

There is a greater disparity between cars than there is between drivers. On a scale of 1-10, the worst driver on the grid is a 6 or 7 but the worst car on the grid is a 2. Lewis Hamilton will never win a race in a Williams.

Let's take the 2020 season as an example. Mercedes is dominant (and that's an understatement). Williams is not. Lewis Hamilton is untouchable in his Mercedes. George Russell is constantly a back marker in his Williams. Lewis Hamilton gets covid and is forced to miss a race. George Russell gets to drive his car. If not for a botched pit stop, George would have won that race. How do you go from always finishing P19 or P20 to P1 in the span of a week? Did he suddenly develop driving skills? Did he take a class during the week to improve his driving?

IT'S

THE

CAR.

To be clear, I'm not taking anything away from anyone's favorite driver. Just take the blinders off and look at the objective facts. Why did it take 3 years for Lewis to win a race? Valteri used to win races when he was with Mercedes but he hasn't won squat with Sauber and he didn't win squat when he was at Williams. So he was only a good driver when he was at Mercedes? Nonsense.

It's the car.

Compelling argument.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Roman

There is a greater disparity between cars than there is between drivers. On a scale of 1-10, the worst driver on the grid is a 6 or 7 but the worst car on the grid is a 2.

This.

Beyond that, all of these cars and drivers are different, as far as how they work and the settings they like. Sometimes you can get a car that the driver can work properly, and a set-up that he feels he can push safely, and there is this magic that happens (and vice versa), but it's still worth only a few points (a lot in F1 terms).

Having said that, unless you're in a top tier car it's not going to make the difference. By far it's the car that makes the most difference.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Roman

It's the car. Period. Full stop.
It's the car.

And in the rain ?

[Roman]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

And in the rain ?

Most definitely driver skill and ball size dependent.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Roman

Most definitely driver skill and ball size dependent.

Well ...That you can see on this page => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...2120977&page=8

[///MPhatic]

In the rain you have to be willing to crash, it's a simple as that. Unless you're Senna, then well, you're Senna.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by MJE60

If it is all the car then please explain the gap between Verstappen and Perez or why certain drivers have with rare exceptions consistently outscored their team mates.

Because not all drivers are equal. If it were all about driver, Formula 1 would be spec series where all cars are the same and teams would be responsible to find the best driver.

Formula 1 has been and will always about engineering first. Period.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Full disclosure: I tune in to F1 very infrequently. That's because, I think, and as one who does tune-in only rarely, most of what I've observed have been processions. That is, little in the way of what I think of as racing.

Having observed from afar the vagaries of total studs' results after changing teams, a total noob like myself feels compelled to ask the experts: is it more about the driver, the car, or some identifiable and communicable combination of the two?

My purpose in asking is that I'm a very technically oriented person, and I'd like to get enthused about F1 if there's space in there for me to do so.

All replies gratefully accepted!

usually car first, then driver, but both is the answer.

[MJE60]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

As above from all need a good car and in F1 you still need a good driver.

But if it’s a Mercedes and your Lewis Hamilton it’s all the car.
If it’s a Red Bull it’s not the car and it’s all Max Verstappen.

The above it’s absolutely stupid I hasten to add the best drivers can and do get more out of a car than their team mate. Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, Verstappen all fall in that bucket.

Totally agree and find it interesting that it was the more partisan contributors who tried to trash certain drivers reputations by placing total credit on the car and then eulogise another driver and downplay the car who drove some knowledgable enthusiasts away from this forum.

Throughout F1 history it is clear that innovation and engineering excellence made certain cars dominant (for limited time), now imo politics and specification changes are also dominant factors. Despite the car we see certain drivers consistently outperform their team mates and have a significant impact on the team performance. Driver input can be critical to car development and effective car set-up, they can also play a significant role in team morale and motivation. Max was dominant last season and Checo in the same car scored approx half the points. The Mercedes W14 of 2023 was regarded as a joke or embarrassment for the team yet Lewis was still 3rd in the standings ( significantly closer to Checo points wise than many realise).

Looking at this season so far, I am pondering how much Red Bull dominance in 2023 was purely down to Max (in a car that was designed very much for him) and whether this led the team into a dark place by being overly complacent. Remove Max from the 2024 standings and Red Bull are the 4th team and even with Max the team look vulnerable to losing the constructors title. Sidelining and then losing Newey might now seem reckless and Max clearly appears increasingly frustrated. I believe one of the key factors in Lewis moving was due to being ignored on design input (and car remaining uncompetitive) and similarity I suspect that unless the car improves competitively over the next 4-5 races Max will move team, what do others think?

[RichardInCA]

Yes, it’s the car….but in a “necessary but not sufficient” way. You need to have a great driver than can get the most out of an excellent car - see the Max/Checo situation. An excellent driver is forgettable if the car won’t deliver, similarly an excellent car can look mediocre with a mid-pack driver. I recall how hard a time Senna had in his tragic season at Williams.

I think there’s also something about a driver that knows how to set up their car and work well with their engineers as well that’s critical/often less discussed. Max knows how to set up his car to get the most out of it - Schumacher was the same.

[jkoral]

Originally Posted by RichardInCA

Max knows how to set up his car to get the most out of it - Schumacher was the same.

It's difficult to say with Schumacher because of all the unlimited testing he did during the season at Fiorano (and Mugello).

Can you imagine these days, drivers doing hundreds of laps with the current car prior to a race, teams with huge budgets (and in the case of Fiorano, Ferrari's private track) could make anyone look like a setup genius.

I never see this mentioned anymore, but it was a different time. Can you imagine reading this today (substitute Max or Hamilton for Schumacher):

"Michael Schumacher set the fastest time on the third day of F1 testing at Mugello today (Thursday). Despite his substantial lead in the championship standings, the Ferrari ace opted to test in preparation for the Japanese Grand Prix at Suzuka because he reckons he would never be able to forgive himself if he didn't do everything he could to ensure he wins the title."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mu...21921/5021921/