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      07-06-2015, 03:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
My conspiracy theory here is that automakers make doublespeak comments like this as a trial balloon to gauge customer reaction in order to help inform their decisions. Still, given that Porsche is rumored to be bringing the manual BACK to the GT3 at least as an option and introducing a brand new 911 GT car optimized for driver involvement over raw speed after the reaction to the PDK-only GT3, I'm surprised to see BMW potentially poised to make the same mistake that Porsche is already working to correct.
Do you think the Porsche rumors are doublespeak trial balloons to gauge customer interest? I guess not. Porsche would never do that. But, then, why did they make the "mistake" in the 1st place?
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      07-06-2015, 03:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
Do you think the Porsche rumors are doublespeak trial balloons to gauge customer interest? I guess not. Porsche would never do that. But, then, why did they make the "mistake" in the 1st place?
Fair enough, the new GT model and the next-gen GT3 having a manual available may well be trial balloons or full-on headfakes -- but the GT4 is real, and when asked in multiple interviews why they decided to make that car with a manual rather than the PDK which the engineers acknowledge would have made for a faster car, Andreas Preuninger said, "To show people that we listened." He also explains that the guiding philosophy of the GT4 was to make a car for people who were less concerned with that last tenth of a second on track and more interested in additional driver engagement.
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      07-06-2015, 04:01 PM   #25
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SAVE THE MANUALS !!
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      07-06-2015, 04:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Meel View Post
... "It’s difficult to say we’ll stick to the manual" ...

Biggest pun ever?
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      07-06-2015, 04:07 PM   #27
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The writing is on the wall... Herr "Audi Man" has spoken... Me thinks the current M4/M3 and upcoming M2 will be some of the last manual ///M cars for quite some time. I hope I am wrong... but BMW has been hinting about this quite a few times now.
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      07-06-2015, 04:08 PM   #28
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      07-06-2015, 04:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Fair enough, the new GT model and the next-gen GT3 having a manual available may well be trial balloons or full-on headfakes -- but the GT4 is real, and when asked in multiple interviews why they decided to make that car with a manual rather than the PDK which the engineers acknowledge would have made for a faster car, Andreas Preuninger said, "To show people that we listened." He also explains that the guiding philosophy of the GT4 was to make a car for people who were less concerned with that last tenth of a second on track and more interested in additional driver engagement.
So, they'll offer a manual for guys paying $150k + who DON'T want the car to perform as well as it can. That would indeed be listening. To the lunatic fringe. But hey, not my circus, not my monkeys.
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      07-06-2015, 04:11 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Someone asked me to teach them how to drive a manual tranny car not too long ago. I told them I would teach them but that their learning how to drive one would, by the time they were able to buy a car of their own, it wasn't likely a manual transmission one would even be offered.
So, all the manual transmission cars that were produced since the car was invented will suddenly cease to exist? Will people only buy brand new cars that are not offered with a manual???

I made sure my son learned to drive a manual just because it is going away. It will be a "lost art" so to speak, and anyone that can actually drive one will have the advantage of being a able to enjoy all the great cars that came with one. Every E30 M3, any Porsche worthy of being called a Porsche, a classic Ferrari with a gated shifter.

My 16 year old son has a 2007 Z4 with a 6 speed manual and loves the fact that NONE of his friends can drive his car. It takes SKILL.
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      07-06-2015, 04:11 PM   #31
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Instead of crying that 6MT is about to go away, I don't know, maybe people should start buying them?

Here are some cold hard facts regarding the fate of 6MT

F80
ECE - 5%
RHD - 4%
NA - 29%

F82
ECE - 6%
RHD - 3.5%
NA - 19%

F83
ECE - 3%
RHD - 6%
NA - 10%

With those numbers, MT is dead in the rest of the of the World. I bet that manual transmission will only be available on the NA M3/M4 for the next generation.
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      07-06-2015, 04:13 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
Fair enough, the new GT model and the next-gen GT3 having a manual available may well be trial balloons or full-on headfakes -- but the GT4 is real, and when asked in multiple interviews why they decided to make that car with a manual rather than the PDK which the engineers acknowledge would have made for a faster car, Andreas Preuninger said, "To show people that we listened." He also explains that the guiding philosophy of the GT4 was to make a car for people who were less concerned with that last tenth of a second on track and more interested in additional driver engagement.
The GT4 is a limited-production car. They're making 600... It's irrelevant. Also, they probably put a manual in it to differentiate it from the GT3.

Porsche will drop the manual too - it's just a matter of time. Manual sales are very low. Close to zero at the dealership where I bought mine...
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      07-06-2015, 04:15 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
So, they'll offer a manual for guys paying $150k + who DON'T want the car to perform as well as it can. That would indeed be listening. To the lunatic fringe. But hey, not my circus, not my monkeys.
Some of us don't buy our cars strictly for the numbers.

That is like going to a fine restaurant and ordering based on the most calories/$.

Last edited by MightyMouseTech; 07-06-2015 at 04:21 PM..
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      07-06-2015, 04:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Convicted View Post
So, they'll offer a manual for guys paying $150k + who DON'T want the car to perform as well as it can. That would indeed be listening. To the lunatic fringe. But hey, not my circus, not my monkeys.
Not everyone values speed above all else even in performance cars. There are plenty of cars that are more expensive than other, faster options and offer feel/drama/theater/whatever you want to call it instead because for some people, how exciting a car is to drive is more important than how fast it is -- otherwise every performance car enthusiast with $100K to spend would buy a GT-R rather than basically anything else. Do you see everyone in that market doing that? I don't.

And if performance car enthusiasts were actually honest with themselves, the overwhelming majority of them would buy for feel rather than speed anyway. Most of the people talking about how much faster DCT is will likely never drive in a context where that last bit of performance really matters, never mind learn to drive well enough that the difference in transmission is really what prevents them from going faster, just as people who get ECU tunes and want their top speed limiter removed will likely never drive that fast anyway. I've never understood armchair racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by visualguy View Post
The GT4 is a limited-production car. They're making 600... It's irrelevant. Also, they probably put a manual in it to differentiate it from the GT3.

Porsche will drop the manual too - it's just a matter of time. Manual sales are very low. Close to zero at the dealership where I bought mine...
The only consistent production number I've seen is 2500 units worldwide, not 600, but even that number hasn't been confirmed. Anyhow, the GT3 and GT3RS are also limited production cars, but I don't why that makes any of those cars irrelevant. And yes, Porsche may well have put a manual in the GT4 to differentiate it from the GT3, but what's wrong with that? It's still an acknowledgement that the manual transmission has a place even in performance cars. I'm also not arguing that the days of the manual transmission are numbered, just as the days of hydraulic steering and gas-powered engines are as well. That doesn't mean that any of those technologies won't be missed by at least some portion of the market.
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Last edited by jphughan; 07-06-2015 at 04:29 PM..
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      07-06-2015, 04:26 PM   #35
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So they're saying a future M4 with 600hp and 6MT. Right?
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      07-06-2015, 04:37 PM   #36
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I will happily take 600 hp in a 3,300 pound car with a DCT.
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      07-06-2015, 04:42 PM   #37
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Only reason the F8x is being considered as my next car is because of the 6MT offering. If they axed that, then they would lose my prospective business.
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      07-06-2015, 04:45 PM   #38
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Currently we have a choice. Once the choice is gone, you take it or leave it. I like my 3rd pedal but if/when I have to go with the masses so be it, until then. I choose my 6MT.
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      07-06-2015, 04:47 PM   #39
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Fuck.
Cannot find better words.

Time to save for a Ferrari.

Driving my E90 M3 I was waiting to trade it for an F80... Now, I plan to keep it and add the F80.

New BMW bosses = Retards.
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      07-06-2015, 04:48 PM   #40
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can't expect them to keep offering it if they sell too few.
Then explain the 5GT. Or the multitude of niche Minis.
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      07-06-2015, 04:49 PM   #41
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About time. No point wasting resources to cater for few dinosaurs.
Hey guys, I found the fake-enthusiast over here!
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      07-06-2015, 04:51 PM   #42
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Yawn. Look at all these saps just giving in to the corporate crap talk. "Oh, 600HP is more than enough and just fine and dandy!" Yeah, if you don't know what you're doing. If you don't want fast cars, go buy some base 3er/5er and be done with it. If Ferrari and McLaren can offer ~900HP RWD supercars, there's no reason BMW couldn't either.

The real issue is, BMW knows their consumer base. They're not sports car drivers. This is more apparent than ever in the new M3/4. I owned the E92 M3, and that was a big jump up from the E46 M3. The new F8x M is just a little touch up and repackaging. Since they're going to limit their top end in performance, they have to limit their M3/4 cars as well. Even if they work on carbon tech and keep getting the weight down, which they will never be close to 3000lbs again, you're still going to be driving a specific power:weight that isn't all that amazing.

Enjoy your neutered cars. I ditched BMW a month ago and bought a 2002 C5 Z06 Corvette and am in the process of turning it into a real track monster. RWD and 6spd manual, as god intended. I'm aiming for 450RWHP in a car that weighs 3150lbs. I'll see you guys on the road
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      07-06-2015, 05:01 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 n X5M View Post
Cannot find better words.

Time to save for a Ferrari.

Driving my E90 M3 I was waiting to trade it for an F80... Now, I plan to keep it and add the F80.

New BMW bosses = Retards.
You can't buy a new Ferrari with a MT though... the last one that was built was a 599 in 2011 - and all the Ferrari customers basically voted with their wallet and bought the DCT. It's the same thing happening here.
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      07-06-2015, 05:05 PM   #44
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I envision the M2,M3 and M4 will keep their manuals through the next generation but M5 and M6 will not as it is no longer justifiable as they are slower, heavy and heavier on fuel consumption.

The xDrive will be optional as BMW have markets for both RWD and xDrive.
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