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      12-29-2019, 10:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by LakeSurfer View Post
Lol, yeah stop driving your fast sports car fast ya asshole.


I bought my $80k sports car specifically so I could drive it like a Toyota Corolla.
If you feel the need to race everyone on a public road, especially Susan in her Pathfinder, yeah, you're probably driving like an asshole.
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      12-29-2019, 10:45 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Why won't Congress regulate commercial transport emissions as a place to start, since it will have more - and more lasting - impact.
Umm, they do.

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Originally Posted by adc View Post
And if you want to go for the fringes, how about all the motorcycles, scooters and - lawnmowers, let's not forget those.
You mean the lawnmower and scooter that burn about 1 gallon/hour? Yeah, that's not contributing hardly anything.

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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Let's cut the hypocrisy if we're really after cleaner air and less CO2.
Let's. Your entire post was a whataboutism.

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Originally Posted by adc View Post
You know, it actually is a gas guzzler if we're being honest. 28mpg is if you drive downhill with a tailwind on the highway. If you drive it aggressively in mixed conditions you won't see 18mpg.
No, it's not. I got 28 mpg on a recent roadtrip with the cruise control set at 79mph. It does quite well.

My average mpg is right around 21-22 mpg with city and highway driving.

As it turns out, I don't have to race everyone to the next stop light.


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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Your track driving, or aggressive street driving, in a performance ICE car are completely at odds with the goal of saving the planet. Absolutely orthogonal to the thing.
Actually, they're not. This is yet another fallacy of yours. As it turns out, you don't have to give up EVERYTHING to save the planet or give a shit. That's why I'm not worried about F1 or NASCAR or the track junkie with his catless track only car.

It's not an all or nothing proposition.

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Lol yeah sure it can get 28mpg buy do YOU get 28mpg. I'm sure not. I've gotten even 14mpg in my 328i and even less in my 335i. They can also get almost 30 on the highway but they dont because I drive them for what they are, sports cars. If you wanted to get 28mpg you wouldnt have gotten an m3. Your car is a gas guzzler the way youre meant to drive it and you wouldnt have gotten it if you didnt mean to drive it in a spirited manner.

I don't know, stop driving like an asshole?

I bought my $80k sports car specifically so I could drive it like a Toyota Corolla.
Do you own the waste emissions generated by your $80k sports sedan?
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      12-29-2019, 10:51 PM   #91
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If all cars, even "off road" had to be registered and compliant then no one would be at an advantage on the track.
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      12-29-2019, 10:56 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by E92William View Post
Funny how many morons here are complaining about companies being able to sell catless exhausts and such. Screw off you drive a bmw not a Prius. If you wanna save the planet dont go around in a gas guzzling sport sedan
Some of us are fine with the performance of a catted exhaust. I don't feel the need to impress the little boys on the road pretending they are racers and I don't need the extra hp on the track because the capabilities of my car far exceed my skill.
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      12-29-2019, 10:56 PM   #93
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If all cars, even "off road" had to be registered and compliant then no one would be at an advantage on the track.
What's the lifespan of race-cats?
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      12-29-2019, 10:58 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
If all cars, even "off road" had to be registered and compliant then no one would be at an advantage on the track.
What's the lifespan of race-cats?
Everything has a shorter lifespan on the track. That's just part of the game. Gotta pay to play.
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      12-29-2019, 11:00 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
If all cars, even "off road" had to be registered and compliant then no one would be at an advantage on the track.
What's the lifespan of race-cats?
Everything has a shorter lifespan on the track. That's just part of the game. Gotta pay to play.
ya I know that but I was curious as to how long they lasted.
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      12-29-2019, 11:11 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by E92William View Post
Funny how many morons here are complaining about companies being able to sell catless exhausts and such. Screw off you drive a bmw not a Prius. If you wanna save the planet dont go around in a gas guzzling sport sedan
First, I'm not sure what MPG has to do with emissions regulations. The kind of exhaust a car puts out has nothing to do with the amount.

Second, my 328 saw a consistent 29 MPG. My 335 sees a consistent 23. My gas guzzler E92 M3 saw 19 MPG. If you drive like your hair is always on fire, MPG is the least of your issues. These are not great numbers of course, but I don't see a need to make the situation worse by taking out the cat which just makes the car stink and makes you obnoxious as you drive by. Might as well roll coal.

I had a Borla on my E92 with cats - without it the car wouldn't be drivable, it would be way to loud. Loudness for the sake of loudness isn't cool.

I just think all this is moot. The upcoming G80 is going to be the last ICE powered M3. Then all of this won't matter. I don't believe that electric cars are better for the environment for many many reasons, but they make a much better basis for a car than something with an ICE engine.
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      12-30-2019, 02:14 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Backstory: the EPA in 2016 sought to "clarify" their interpretation of current regulations in such a way as to put street cars converted to race cars -- with emissions equipment removed -- in their crosshairs. The language got removed but SEMA still decided to push for a law specifically protecting motor sport. Right now EPA chooses not to enforce the regulations on vehicles converted for race use and used only that way. The proposed law would prohibit the EPA from changing their minds about that.

Like others here I see no reason to pollute the air by removing emissions equipment on street cars. But I am an enthusiast and I do enjoy seeing racing of all kinds including racing cars based on street cars. I'm supporting the bills for that reason.
I can guarantee that all the commercial trucks and buses, school buses and whatnot contribute far more to pollution than all the de-catted rice out Civics.

Why won't Congress regulate commercial transport emissions as a place to start, since it will have more - and more lasting - impact.

And if you want to go for the fringes, how about all the motorcycles, scooters and - lawnmowers, let's not forget those.

Let's cut the hypocrisy if we're really after cleaner air and less CO2.
Whataboutism.

Quit breaking the law and polluting the air that we all have to breathe just so you can fellate yourself over an insignificant 12hp extra.
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      12-30-2019, 02:24 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Serious View Post
screw SEMA.

This isnt about protecting club racers it's an attempt to keep flouting federal emissions laws so you can sell illegal catless exhausts which you, and the rest of us, all know will be used on the street.

These cars already have 500+ hp do you really need to cause more pollution just to hit 525hp?!? When does it pass into absurdity?

I am a car enthusiast, I am a racing enthusiast but this is just a sham attempt at legislation to insulate tuners who knowingly violate federal emissions laws with almost every single exhaust sale. They will hide behind their phony "off road waiver" but we all know what's really going on.

Edit: how about you guys go to SEMA and tell them to clean up their act and actually regulate aftermarket exhaust/tune sales so their in compliance with emissions laws rather than trying to be the NRA for the tuner industry
You're drawing parallels to the NRA in a lame attempt to evoke emotion annoyed me enough to sign the petition - even though this isn't an issue I care about in the least.
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      12-30-2019, 02:36 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Backstory: the EPA in 2016 sought to "clarify" their interpretation of current regulations in such a way as to put street cars converted to race cars -- with emissions equipment removed -- in their crosshairs. The language got removed but SEMA still decided to push for a law specifically protecting motor sport. Right now EPA chooses not to enforce the regulations on vehicles converted for race use and used only that way. The proposed law would prohibit the EPA from changing their minds about that.

Like others here I see no reason to pollute the air by removing emissions equipment on street cars. But I am an enthusiast and I do enjoy seeing racing of all kinds including racing cars based on street cars. I'm supporting the bills for that reason.
I can guarantee that all the commercial trucks and buses, school buses and whatnot contribute far more to pollution than all the de-catted rice out Civics.

Why won't Congress regulate commercial transport emissions as a place to start, since it will have more - and more lasting - impact.

And if you want to go for the fringes, how about all the motorcycles, scooters and - lawnmowers, let's not forget those.

Let's cut the hypocrisy if we're really after cleaner air and less CO2.
Whataboutism.

Quit breaking the law and polluting the air that we all have to breathe just so you can fellate yourself over an insignificant 12hp extra.
Says the guy with an e92 m3 listed in his sig. If you're truly so passionate about emissions and environmental issues, why would you drive such inefficient vehicles? How about making some sacrifices on your end? I suppose it's much more convenient to point that judgmental finger at others though...
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      12-30-2019, 02:57 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Backstory: the EPA in 2016 sought to "clarify" their interpretation of current regulations in such a way as to put street cars converted to race cars -- with emissions equipment removed -- in their crosshairs. The language got removed but SEMA still decided to push for a law specifically protecting motor sport. Right now EPA chooses not to enforce the regulations on vehicles converted for race use and used only that way. The proposed law would prohibit the EPA from changing their minds about that.

Like others here I see no reason to pollute the air by removing emissions equipment on street cars. But I am an enthusiast and I do enjoy seeing racing of all kinds including racing cars based on street cars. I'm supporting the bills for that reason.
I can guarantee that all the commercial trucks and buses, school buses and whatnot contribute far more to pollution than all the de-catted rice out Civics.

Why won't Congress regulate commercial transport emissions as a place to start, since it will have more - and more lasting - impact.

And if you want to go for the fringes, how about all the motorcycles, scooters and - lawnmowers, let's not forget those.

Let's cut the hypocrisy if we're really after cleaner air and less CO2.
Whataboutism.

Quit breaking the law and polluting the air that we all have to breathe just so you can fellate yourself over an insignificant 12hp extra.
Says the guy with an e92 m3 listed in his sig. If you're truly so passionate about emissions and environmental issues, why would you drive such inefficient vehicles? How about making some sacrifices on your end? I suppose it's much more convenient to point that judgmental finger at others though...
I don't think you can really compare the two.
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      12-30-2019, 03:10 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuller View Post
Says the guy with an e92 m3 listed in his sig. If you're truly so passionate about emissions and environmental issues, why would you drive such inefficient vehicles? How about making some sacrifices on your end? I suppose it's much more convenient to point that judgmental finger at others though...
Most days I just ride my bicycle. That said driving my e92 isn't illegal unlike, say removing your catalytic converters and my M3 doesn't put out even 1/30th the toxins (CO, NO, hydrocarbons) that a de-catted car does.
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      12-30-2019, 04:30 AM   #102
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I actually oppose to this act :
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      12-30-2019, 07:37 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Whataboutism.

Quit breaking the law and polluting the air that we all have to breathe just so you can fellate yourself over an insignificant 12hp extra.
I have no idea what you mean. All my cars are running the stock OEM exhaust.

What I am saying is that the air that you breathe is polluted far more by other things than the occasional de-catted car, and you know it.


And donít ever go to a racetrack, youíll choke on all those evil race car fumes.
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      12-30-2019, 07:49 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSurfer View Post
Lol, yeah stop driving your fast sports car fast ya asshole.


I bought my $80k sports car specifically so I could drive it like a Toyota Corolla.
If you feel the need to race everyone on a public road, especially Susan in her Pathfinder, yeah, you're probably driving like an asshole.
Im just giving everyone the pleasure of hearing the glorious V-8 noises out the rear end.
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      12-30-2019, 11:45 AM   #105
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This thread (and it being made front page news) is the equivalent of asking "who did you vote for?" at your office holiday party. Good job mods, I question your motivations.
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      12-30-2019, 02:34 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
ya I know that but I was curious as to how long they lasted.
I've never had a factory cat fail in any of my competition-driven cars.....
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      12-30-2019, 03:19 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScytheM3 View Post
This thread (and it being made front page news) is the equivalent of asking "who did you vote for?" at your office holiday party. Good job mods, I question your motivations.
Maybe that's why it devolved into name calling. Awaiting Godwin.
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      12-30-2019, 04:54 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingLow78 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by r33_RGSport View Post
Guys,

SEMA is asking for us the manufacturers, retailers, and customers to sign on this RPM ACT so it can get passed by the Congress.

This act clarifies that a road driven car can be turned into a race car, that's all we're fighting for here.
No, the act clearly doesn't say that. As with any change in laws that affect you, it's important to read the actual verbiage being proposed, not just the headlines.

Back story: Evans Tuning gets fined by the EPA for over 100 violations of the Clean Air Act (CAA):

https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...stuningllc.pdf

EPA sues Derive: https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa...defeat-devices

The title of the act is VERY misleading. Similar to the "Save Our Tips" Act which was sponsored by restaurant owners in an attempt to keep waitstaff wages below the federal minimum wage limit, the RPM Act is a deliberate attempt to insulate manufacturers and vendors of non-compliant emissions equipment (i.e. exhausts, catless downpipes, intakes, etc) in their efforts to circumvent the requirements of the Clean Air Act.

This Act is sponsored by 21 Republicans and 7 Democrats, and went before the Senate back in October. Read the proposed language and list of sponsors here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/2602/text

Quote:
Section 3a: No action with respect to any device or element of design described in paragraph (3) shall be treated as a prohibited act under that paragraph if the action is for the purpose of modifying a motor vehicle into a vehicle to be used solely for competition, and that vehicle is not authorized for operation on a street or highway.
This seems as though it's just clarifying the law to exclude cars used only on the racetrack from the provisions of the CAA, buuuut....

Quote:
the Administrator shall not—

(1) create a Federal database, or identify or require the creation of a State database, of vehicle registration information that is required to be consulted at the point of manufacture, sale, installation, or use of parts or components; and

(2) require the registration of a vehicle or a part or component of a vehicle by the manufacturer, seller, purchaser, installer, or user of the vehicle.
The implementation language states that the EPA administrator may not create a method for tracking compliance of these items, nor may he/she compel states to do so. California required manufacturers of aftermarket parts to get CARB certification numbers for their parts indicating they had been tested and complied with the state's clean air laws. The proposed language in this bill would prevent the creation of any way to track a vehicle's actual status (road legal or not) with its parts, unless a state went above the regulation, as with California).

Vehicle registration is a funny thing, since it's generally a state responsibility. Manufacturers are required to certify their vehicles as compliant when they offer them for sale, and the bill would prevent any association of federal vehicle records and aftermarket modifications with the existing database. This provision prevents the EPA from compelling aftermarket parts manufacturers or installers to maintain any kind of records about what parts went on what car, so when the EPA delivers a subpoena, manufacturers, sellers, and installers can argue they aren't required to record the specifics of each item they sell. They could simply say "we're not required to track that information beyond what our tax laws mandate" and their sales records could simply say "sold 100 widgets".

The second portion then circumvents California's ARB part registration laws by saying parts are not required to be "registered" by anyone in the supply chain from manufacturer to end user. This could have the effect of neutering California's laws, since a primary method of ensuring compliance is testing and certifying the parts, then assigning a tracking number.

But, we're talking about cars only used on the racetrack, right? Nope, because the RPM Act deliberately blurs those lines as well.

Quote:
The regulation under subsection (a) shall—

(2) provide that evidence of physical attributes of a vehicle to be used solely for competition may be sufficient to qualify for the exemption under the amendment made by section 3(a)
So, if a car's physical attributes now may qualify it as a race car, anyone with track-focused parts could argue they are exempt from the CAA. This could reasonably extend to cars that simply have stickers on them, since race cars have stickers.

Quote:
(3) provide that a manufacturer, seller, or installer of a part or component seeking to use the exemption under the amendment made by section 3(a) may not rely solely on unsupported declarations from the purchaser or owner of a vehicle about—

(A) the legal status of the vehicle; or

(B) the intended use of—

(i) the part or component; or

(ii) the vehicle.
This last bit is intended to fully insulate the manufacturer, sellers, and installers from any liability under the Clean Air Act by saying they need not inquire with a vehicle's purchaser or owner as to how a part is going to be used. So, everyone running BM3s or catless DPs is now solely responsible for the compliance of their vehicle, and if the Feds wanted to come after the manufacturer, the manufacturer could argue that they weren't required to ask any questions related to how a part was going to be used. It allows the legal assumption that any sale is for off-road use only, and would prevent the EPA from holding accountable companies which had been pursued in the past (like Evans Tuning or Cobb Tuning).

The EPA's settlement with Evans Tuning states, "The EPA's longstanding view is that conduct that may be prohibited by§ 203(a)(3) does not warrant enforcement if the person performing that conduct has a documented, reasonable basis for knowing that the conduct does not adversely affect emissions. See Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum IA (June 25, 1974)." This bill is written specifically to prevent the EPA from enforcing the CAA with their current methods.

So, if the bill passes and the EPA can't come after the manufacturers of such devices, they will have no one left to pursue except the end user, because the bill doesn't insulate the people driving the car on the street.
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      12-31-2019, 04:17 AM   #109
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The bill is very short, so please take a moment to read it and decide if you think it's in the best interests of your community and your fellow Americans.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/2602/text

One of the senators from my home state is a co-sponsor of the bill. Whether you agree or disagree with it, I would ask that you contact your state's senators directly, rather than arguing with others in this forum. I emailed both of my senators this morning, because I feel direct contact is more effective than signing a petition.

https://www.senate.gov/general/conta...state&Sort=ASC
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      12-31-2019, 12:32 PM   #110
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The bill is very short, so please take a moment to read it and decide if you think it's in the best interests of your community and your fellow Americans.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-...bill/2602/text

One of the senators from my home state is a co-sponsor of the bill. Whether you agree or disagree with it, I would ask that you contact your state's senators directly, rather than arguing with others in this forum. I emailed both of my senators this morning, because I feel direct contact is more effective than signing a petition.

https://www.senate.gov/general/conta...state&Sort=ASC
The original link wasnít really a petition to sign. It was a form email that used your address data to send emails to your representatives. But emailing them directly works too
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