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      09-25-2015, 04:54 PM   #1079
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Of course Jesus didn't write the Old Testament, but all scripture is God-breathed.

Christianity in churches today still hold to the teachings of the Old and New Testaments. If you want to see how Christianity is done, talk to one or go to church. I'll be glad to answer any questions.

Catholics are a bit different, but most protestant churches are similar, depending on location.
The first post seemed to suggest that Jesus wrote the Old Testament which is why I said that.

Also being "born again" is not Biblical and not something that was found in the original church or any Orthodox teachings today. That is something that the protestants invented recently, just like purgatory, speaking in tongues and other strange things like that developed over time. I think if someone wants to learn Christianity they should not visit any random church but visit a church that follows the 7 ecumenical councils which formed Christianity meaning an Orthodox church whether it's Greek, Russian, American, etc. Much of the New Testament is Apostles writing letters to churches or giving speeches to churches and these are of course Orthodox churches, not catholic and not protestant so I think all advice given about Christianity should be focused on showing others the original church and then letting them decide whether they want to follow the original church or follow a denomination like protestantism that came about 1700 years later. I have a degree in religion and would also be happy to answer questions if I can.
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      09-25-2015, 06:12 PM   #1080
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Originally Posted by Twisty Fast Autobahn View Post
Jesus didn't write the Old Testament. It was written by various prophets describing the coming of a Messiah. The New Testament was written to describe the life and teachings of the Messiah. Christianity as a church was defined at the 7 ecumenical councils by the same people who put the Bible together.

The [person] who made Christianity legal, would find modern Christianity to be a gross heresy. ....
I'm not so sure Constantine would object to today's "flavor" of Christianity. More likely in my mind is that he'd dispense with it entirely insofar as in very few places does it directly serve a ruler's need to manage his subjects. I think Constantine would acquiesce to the idea of freedom of religious expression so long as there exists an alternative construct by which political control can be exerted.
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      09-25-2015, 06:23 PM   #1081
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I'm not so sure Constantine would object to today's "flavor" of Christianity. More likely in my mind is that he'd dispense with it entirely insofar as in very few places does it directly serve a ruler's need to manage his subjects. I think Constantine would acquiesce to the idea of freedom of religious expression so long as there exists an alternative construct by which political control can be exerted.
All the best.
Which flavor? Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant? I can't imagine that Constantine would agree with Protestantism however while Constantine made Christianity legal his view on things doesn't matter as much as does the results of the Ecumenical councils and church fathers. Constantine was a politician. The church fathers would and did condemn things such a Protestantism as heresy and certainly would not allow things like Protestants where every street corner preacher can basically make up whatever he wants. The church fathers were pretty clear on non-Orthodox teachings and if they can be trusted with creating Christianity and creating the Bible I think the other things they said can be trusted as well.
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      09-25-2015, 07:07 PM   #1082
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Originally Posted by Twisty Fast Autobahn View Post
Which flavor? Orthodox, Catholic, or Protestant? I can't imagine that Constantine would agree with Protestantism however while Constantine made Christianity legal his view on things doesn't matter as much as does the results of the Ecumenical councils and church fathers. Constantine was a politician. The church fathers would and did condemn things such a Protestantism as heresy and certainly would not allow things like Protestants where every street corner preacher can basically make up whatever he wants. The church fathers were pretty clear on non-Orthodox teachings and if they can be trusted with creating Christianity and creating the Bible I think the other things they said can be trusted as well.
Well, yes. Okay. But I didn't write, "people who made it legal," you did. I mentioned Constantine because he's the person who made Christianity "acceptable." Prior to his doing so, the "legal" religion was Roman polytheism combined with the deification of the Emperor.

Strictly speaking, IIRC, it was the Edict of Thessolonica (EoT) that made Christianity the Roman state's religion. Even so, without the Constantine's Edict of Milan that legitimized Christianity and the 1st Council of Nicea which defined its initial orthodoxy, I doubt the EoT would have happened.

Don't kid yourself. Those founding fathers of the Church were as much politically motivated as they were theologically driven. Even modern spiritual leaders adopt positions based on the secular, political expediency of doing so. Though they couched it in high minded, theological language, Church leaders' opposed Protestantism because it threatened the Church's political position -- one that sat above that of kings and emperors -- far more so than because it was seen as spiritual heresy. Let's face it, Protestants weren't dissatisfied only with the dogmatic elements of Catholicism; however, Catholic leaders quite handily realized that granting Protestant claims was to unavoidably accede to the subordination of the Church and Pope's supremacy and diminish its/His influence.

All the best.
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      09-25-2015, 07:13 PM   #1083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisty Fast Autobahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Of course Jesus didn't write the Old Testament, but all scripture is God-breathed.

Christianity in churches today still hold to the teachings of the Old and New Testaments. If you want to see how Christianity is done, talk to one or go to church. I'll be glad to answer any questions.

Catholics are a bit different, but most protestant churches are similar, depending on location.
The first post seemed to suggest that Jesus wrote the Old Testament which is why I said that.

Also being "born again" is not Biblical and not something that was found in the original church or any Orthodox teachings today. That is something that the protestants invented recently, just like purgatory, speaking in tongues and other strange things like that developed over time. I think if someone wants to learn Christianity they should not visit any random church but visit a church that follows the 7 ecumenical councils which formed Christianity meaning an Orthodox church whether it's Greek, Russian, American, etc. Much of the New Testament is Apostles writing letters to churches or giving speeches to churches and these are of course Orthodox churches, not catholic and not protestant so I think all advice given about Christianity should be focused on showing others the original church and then letting them decide whether they want to follow the original church or follow a denomination like protestantism that came about 1700 years later. I have a degree in religion and would also be happy to answer questions if I can.
Perhaps I'm missing your point - Jesus talked about being "born again," and it's all through the New Testament, and points back to scripture in the Torah (Old Testament).

Speaking in tongues refers to the disciples in Acts (though it may be misinterpreted by some Christian denominations).

I believe Catholics first floated the idea of Purgatory- not Protestants - from their Apocryphal texts
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      09-25-2015, 07:38 PM   #1084
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Perhaps I'm missing your point - Jesus talked about being "born again," and it's all through the New Testament, and points back to scripture in the Torah (Old Testament).

Speaking in tongues refers to the disciples in Acts (though it may be misinterpreted by some Christian denominations).

I believe Catholics first floated the idea of Purgatory- not Protestants - from their Apocryphal texts
That is not correct. Speaking in tongues refers to speaking in the language of the people not in some gibberish. When the Apostles left after Pentecost they were able to speak in the language of the people they went to or in the case of Cyril and Methodius they literally created the Slavic language so they could spread Christianity. The idea of speaking in tongues as some type of gibberish is completely not correct and has no foundation in original Christianity and the founding fathers never mentioned anything remotely like it. It's just a recent protestant invention like purgatory was for the catholics.

Being born again is a translation error in most places with the real phrase being born from above. The idea of being born again is relatively new. There is nothing in over 1700 of Christianity that resembles the protestant idea of being born again. You are baptized and then follow a prayer rule and partake of the sacraments as outlined by the church fathers. The men who assembled the Bible and founded the church would have had no idea why 2000 years later people are reading badly translated version of the Bible, speaking in gibberish, not partaking of the sacraments as they created them and they would not have understood the idea of being born again. When you make the choice to become Christian you are baptized which is a sacrament and how the Christian church choose to express a conversion to the faith which is so drastically different then the protestant born again stuff.

That's the problem with a church spread out in so many pieces is that over time new traditions start and the ones that formed the church are lost. Most don't even know what an ecumenical council is or why the Bible was put together in that order or who even put the Bible together while new and incorrect ideas like speaking in gibberish or being born again is popping up everywhere. The church fathers who assembled the Bible and explained the Bible never spoke about anything like the protestant born again idea which as I said is a relatively new phenomena and idea.

Although loving ones neighbor as Jesus put it is probably the most important aspect of the faith and should be the focus.
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      09-25-2015, 10:26 PM   #1085
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Perhaps I'm missing your point - Jesus talked about being "born again," and it's all through the New Testament, and points back to scripture in the Torah (Old Testament).

Speaking in tongues refers to the disciples in Acts (though it may be misinterpreted by some Christian denominations).

I believe Catholics first floated the idea of Purgatory- not Protestants - from their Apocryphal texts
That's party correct, but it is also an oversimplification.

Purgatory is referenced in the following passages:
  • 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics),
  • 2 Timothy 1:18
  • Matthew 12:32
  • Luke 16:19-26
  • Luke 23:43
  • 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
  • Hebrews 12:29
As you can see, there were no Catholics who wrote any of the noted texts. Though the Catholic church considers the Apostle Peter as its founder, it's also safe to say that Peter didn't call himself a Catholic, neither did Timothy, Matthew, Luke or Paul.

The idea of one's dying and the "soul" then residing "somewhere" prior to arriving in "heaven," or some place where one's god(s) reside dates back to the foundations of Judaism. (George Cross, "The Differentiation of the Roman and Greek Catholic Views of the Future Life", in The Biblical World (1912) p. 106) The thing that distinguishes what we today expressly call Purgatory and how the ancients Jews thought of it is that "Purgatory" was tacit concept to them more so that an explicit place where one's soul hangs out.

We know that the ancients must have inferred that there is such a place because they said prayers for the dead. What would be the point of praying for the dead if they'd already made it to their final "destination?" While for us today, Purgatory is most commonly thought of as a place where souls reside, prior to thinkers like Augustine, souls were more "on a journey" to a destination more so than "confined in a hotel" of sorts.

I'm not convinced it makes much difference whether souls are stuck in a hotel or "stuck on the highway." The central point, regardless of which depiction one prefers and ascribes to, is that after death the soul goes somewhere and that place is not the same place in which one's God dwells.

Sincerely yours.
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      09-26-2015, 01:56 PM   #1086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Perhaps I'm missing your point - Jesus talked about being "born again," and it's all through the New Testament, and points back to scripture in the Torah (Old Testament).

Speaking in tongues refers to the disciples in Acts (though it may be misinterpreted by some Christian denominations).

I believe Catholics first floated the idea of Purgatory- not Protestants - from their Apocryphal texts
That's party correct, but it is also an oversimplification.

Purgatory is referenced in the following passages:
  • 2 Maccabees 12:41-46 (not accepted as Scripture by Protestants but recognized by Orthodox and Catholics),
  • 2 Timothy 1:18
  • Matthew 12:32
  • Luke 16:19-26
  • Luke 23:43
  • 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
  • Hebrews 12:29
As you can see, there were no Catholics who wrote any of the noted texts. Though the Catholic church considers the Apostle Peter as its founder, it's also safe to say that Peter didn't call himself a Catholic, neither did Timothy, Matthew, Luke or Paul.

The idea of one's dying and the "soul" then residing "somewhere" prior to arriving in "heaven," or some place where one's god(s) reside dates back to the foundations of Judaism. (George Cross, "The Differentiation of the Roman and Greek Catholic Views of the Future Life", in The Biblical World (1912) p. 106) The thing that distinguishes what we today expressly call Purgatory and how the ancients Jews thought of it is that "Purgatory" was tacit concept to them more so that an explicit place where one's soul hangs out.

We know that the ancients must have inferred that there is such a place because they said prayers for the dead. What would be the point of praying for the dead if they'd already made it to their final "destination?" While for us today, Purgatory is most commonly thought of as a place where souls reside, prior to thinkers like Augustine, souls were more "on a journey" to a destination more so than "confined in a hotel" of sorts.

I'm not convinced it makes much difference whether souls are stuck in a hotel or "stuck on the highway." The central point, regardless of which depiction one prefers and ascribes to, is that after death the soul goes somewhere and that place is not the same place in which one's God dwells.

Sincerely yours.
The scripture you cite doesn't say anything about Purgatory. The only one even close was in Luke, where Christ spoke of Lazarus. But, as in the Old Testament, Christ had not yet died - so none were allowed in heaven. I didn't read the Maccabean passage - as you said it's a Catholic scripture - not Protestant. References of a similar concept in Judaism may also follow the point that the Christ had (or has) not yet come, therefore no one has yet entered.

If God transcends time, however, the whole issue/concept of Purgatory is moot - a "waiting place" is not needed.

Purgatory has a somewhat ugly history - the Catholic Church has a history of accepting money for masses to be read, to get souls out of Purgatory.
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      09-26-2015, 02:13 PM   #1087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twisty Fast Autobahn
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Perhaps I'm missing your point - Jesus talked about being "born again," and it's all through the New Testament, and points back to scripture in the Torah (Old Testament).

Speaking in tongues refers to the disciples in Acts (though it may be misinterpreted by some Christian denominations).

I believe Catholics first floated the idea of Purgatory- not Protestants - from their Apocryphal texts
That is not correct. Speaking in tongues refers to speaking in the language of the people not in some gibberish. When the Apostles left after Pentecost they were able to speak in the language of the people they went to or in the case of Cyril and Methodius they literally created the Slavic language so they could spread Christianity. The idea of speaking in tongues as some type of gibberish is completely not correct and has no foundation in original Christianity and the founding fathers never mentioned anything remotely like it. It's just a recent protestant invention like purgatory was for the catholics.

Being born again is a translation error in most places with the real phrase being born from above. The idea of being born again is relatively new. There is nothing in over 1700 of Christianity that resembles the protestant idea of being born again. You are baptized and then follow a prayer rule and partake of the sacraments as outlined by the church fathers. The men who assembled the Bible and founded the church would have had no idea why 2000 years later people are reading badly translated version of the Bible, speaking in gibberish, not partaking of the sacraments as they created them and they would not have understood the idea of being born again. When you make the choice to become Christian you are baptized which is a sacrament and how the Christian church choose to express a conversion to the faith which is so drastically different then the protestant born again stuff.

That's the problem with a church spread out in so many pieces is that over time new traditions start and the ones that formed the church are lost. Most don't even know what an ecumenical council is or why the Bible was put together in that order or who even put the Bible together while new and incorrect ideas like speaking in gibberish or being born again is popping up everywhere. The church fathers who assembled the Bible and explained the Bible never spoke about anything like the protestant born again idea which as I said is a relatively new phenomena and idea.

Although loving ones neighbor as Jesus put it is probably the most important aspect of the faith and should be the focus.
I agree with you about tongues, but many Pentecostals would not. It's an interpretation difference.

Born Again is not a translation error - it's simply a dual meaning. The Greek work can mean again or from above. The concept, of which Jesus spoke, is that you are born once physically as well as baptized (which was well-known to the Jews) - these are physical acts. Being born again or from above means accepting the Holy Spirit (which is available to all after Christ's resurrection), and living an eternal life - vs. a mortal life that ends in physical death. So I'm not sure what difference "again" vs. "from above" would make - it's not material, from my POV.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by sacraments. If you mean what is administered by the Church (Catholic and others), they are counter to Christ's example and teaching, from my POV.
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      09-26-2015, 06:45 PM   #1088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The scripture you cite doesn't say anything about Purgatory. The only one even close was in Luke, where Christ spoke of Lazarus. But, as in the Old Testament, Christ had not yet died - so none were allowed in heaven. I didn't read the Maccabean passage - as you said it's a Catholic scripture - not Protestant. References of a similar concept in Judaism may also follow the point that the Christ had (or has) not yet come, therefore no one has yet entered.

If God transcends time, however, the whole issue/concept of Purgatory is moot - a "waiting place" is not needed.

Purgatory has a somewhat ugly history - the Catholic Church has a history of accepting money for masses to be read, to get souls out of Purgatory.
OMFG!!! If that statement indicates the limits of your ability to see the correlation, you and I need not discuss this topic any further.

I mean, come-the-eff- on, man. Not every stinking thing is going to be spelled out for you in black and white. Does every damn batch of concepts and ideas that one must integrate to see the correlation between those passages and Purgatory need to be laid out in front of you? Will you ever doubt your superficial reads of the information that comes your way and instead do some research of your own to evaluate things? Can you not at the very least check Wiki-fucking-pedia on your own?!?

Sincerely yours.
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      09-27-2015, 10:05 AM   #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The scripture you cite doesn't say anything about Purgatory. The only one even close was in Luke, where Christ spoke of Lazarus. But, as in the Old Testament, Christ had not yet died - so none were allowed in heaven. I didn't read the Maccabean passage - as you said it's a Catholic scripture - not Protestant. References of a similar concept in Judaism may also follow the point that the Christ had (or has) not yet come, therefore no one has yet entered.

If God transcends time, however, the whole issue/concept of Purgatory is moot - a "waiting place" is not needed.

Purgatory has a somewhat ugly history - the Catholic Church has a history of accepting money for masses to be read, to get souls out of Purgatory.
OMFG!!! If that statement indicates the limits of your ability to see the correlation, you and I need not discuss this topic any further.

I mean, come-the-eff- on, man. Not every stinking thing is going to be spelled out for you in black and white. Does every damn batch of concepts and ideas that one must integrate to see the correlation between those passages and Purgatory need to be laid out in front of you? Will you ever doubt your superficial reads of the information that comes your way and instead do some research of your own to evaluate things? Can you not at the very least check Wiki-fucking-pedia on your own?!?

Sincerely yours.
Inappropriate response.
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      09-27-2015, 01:12 PM   #1090
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Why are you guys arguing over a dead concept (pun intended)?

There USED to be a purgatory-like state called Sheol where the dead resided before Christ came and "prepared a place for us". Before the completed work of Christ, the residence of the dead...where they "slept"...had two separate abodes - Paradise (or Abraham's Bosom), which was home to the righteous, and "Hell*", which was home to the wicked (*as illustrated by the story of Lazarus and the rich man in the KJV version of Luke 16:19-31).

This was all done away with once Christ prepared the new place for the righteous in Heaven that He spoke of to His followers. (The interesting question is "When did the righteous first start going to Heaven?" Jesus told the redeemed sinner on the cross that he would soon be with Him in "paradise", not Heaven.).

Now, upon death, there is no waiting. Those who have a saving belief in Jesus Christ go immediately to Heaven. Those who do not, face judgement and IF their name is written in the Book of Life due to the works they have performed*, then they are admitted into Heaven. Those whose names are not in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. Hmmm...what is your interpretation of THAT term? (*Revelation 20)

So...what many evangelicals say - "If you die without knowing Jesus, you go to Hell!" - is simply not true. Those people face a judgement (that believers do not) and if their works have put their names into the Book of Life, then they will have eternal life. The more proper way to state what so many incorrectly say is "Accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior is the only GUARANTEED way to go to Heaven."

Therefore, "purgatory" is not worth the time it takes to discuss it, much less worth dividing the Church over, is it??? It's a dead topic.



Note: "Hell" is cast into the Lake of Fire along with "death" in Revelation 20:14. The big question is..."Is that a future event or something that has already happened?"

Revelation 20: 13,14

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

What say you??
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      09-28-2015, 03:03 PM   #1091
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Deity worship or ancestry worship (Hinduism) is a memorial of a past way of life, it's technically not a religion.

A religion is generally "created" at a specific time period usually by a founding individual, you can approximately put a date or decade to when that branch of belief was formed.
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      09-29-2015, 12:12 PM   #1092
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
Why are you guys arguing over a dead concept (pun intended)?

There USED to be a purgatory-like state called Sheol where the dead resided before Christ came and "prepared a place for us". Before the completed work of Christ, the residence of the dead...where they "slept"...had two separate abodes - Paradise (or Abraham's Bosom), which was home to the righteous, and "Hell*", which was home to the wicked (*as illustrated by the story of Lazarus and the rich man in the KJV version of Luke 16:19-31).

This was all done away with once Christ prepared the new place for the righteous in Heaven that He spoke of to His followers. (The interesting question is "When did the righteous first start going to Heaven?" Jesus told the redeemed sinner on the cross that he would soon be with Him in "paradise", not Heaven.).

Now, upon death, there is no waiting. Those who have a saving belief in Jesus Christ go immediately to Heaven. Those who do not, face judgement and IF their name is written in the Book of Life due to the works they have performed*, then they are admitted into Heaven. Those whose names are not in the Book of Life are cast into the Lake of Fire. Hmmm...what is your interpretation of THAT term? (*Revelation 20)

So...what many evangelicals say - "If you die without knowing Jesus, you go to Hell!" - is simply not true. Those people face a judgement (that believers do not) and if their works have put their names into the Book of Life, then they will have eternal life. The more proper way to state what so many incorrectly say is "Accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior is the only GUARANTEED way to go to Heaven."

Therefore, "purgatory" is not worth the time it takes to discuss it, much less worth dividing the Church over, is it??? It's a dead topic.



Note: "Hell" is cast into the Lake of Fire along with "death" in Revelation 20:14. The big question is..."Is that a future event or something that has already happened?"

Revelation 20: 13,14

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

What say you??
Red:
I say the "flavor" of Christianity to which one ascribes drives what one accepts about the verity of Purgatory. If one is a Catholic, Matthew's Gospel will predominate.
When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
- Matthew 25:31-32
Furthermore, Catholics will quite likely accept St. Augustine's discussion from The City of God on the matter: "Temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment."

Heretical Christians are likely to renounce both Jesus' teaching as given by Matthew and Augustine's insights on them.

All the best.
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      09-30-2015, 04:05 PM   #1093
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This is the fist time in all of history that tony20009 has lost his cool... what has the world come to

In other news, I just read a great section from the Handbook of Christian Apologetics. Also, I've been reading Mere Christianity. Both excellent reads. Would recommend the Handbook of Christian Apologetics if you're starting off, they do an excellent job describing both faith and reason and proving God.
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      10-01-2015, 03:35 AM   #1094
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Augustine's notion on punishment sounds very similar to the law of karma, birth and re-birth, except with a "Christian" flavour to it.
I think what he's trying to put across, is the account of our actions remain (is recored) in the soul, then according to the "accurate" time and place those accounts will be settled... Obviously we won't know when or how these accounts (positive or negative) will play out, providence will take its course. Now this then leads to his next theory of freewill and predestination.
I like to believe it's our freewill which determines our destination
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      10-07-2015, 04:45 PM   #1095
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religion is geographical. having your own faith is great. pushing it on others is just stupid.
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      10-07-2015, 04:58 PM   #1096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
religion is geographical. having your own faith is great. pushing it on others is just stupid.
Oh I see I should think like you!
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      10-07-2015, 05:04 PM   #1097
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Oh I see I should think like you!
I don't mind anyone's faith. Stop fucking telling me I'm not saved
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      10-07-2015, 05:06 PM   #1098
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Isn't like a totally amazing coincidence, that pretty much all the major Christian holidays, happen slap bang at the same time as the Pagan (mainly Celtic) festivals.

Just what's the chance of that happening.

Absolutely nothing to do with early PR by the Christians eh...
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      10-07-2015, 05:14 PM   #1099
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I don't mind anyone's faith. Stop fucking telling me I'm not saved
Yeah I saved you in prison a few times.
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      10-07-2015, 05:20 PM   #1100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Number 86 View Post
I don't mind anyone's faith. Stop fucking telling me I'm not saved
Yeah I saved you in prison a few times.
False: I run with blacks. you run with whites.
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