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      07-09-2015, 11:37 AM   #881
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
Errors? Do you have any idea of how many error the Bible contains?
Yes I do, zero.

I understand it's hard to grasp at first. But if you look at the different accounts written by different people on different points of view, they actually give MORE details. Not contradictory details.

Like we've done in the past, if you'd like to pull specific passages you find as errors then we'll go over them one by one.
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      07-09-2015, 11:39 AM   #882
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
They used the Bible as a history book in my school, please reread rules if you're going to make statements like that.
At a public school? At a private school, they can do as they like. Public school needs to not have religious content taught in school.

If they're going to teach from a bible, I can go in with the Koran or Buddhist scriptures and teach those too. After all, they are historical texts as well.
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      07-09-2015, 11:40 AM   #883
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
If you expect the Bible to be the law of the land you should also expect to get a lot of push-back and criticism.
Which I do fully and truly.
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      07-09-2015, 11:45 AM   #884
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Yes you can feel emotion, but its all processed in your brain. Not heart.

Like I said before, if God doesn't exist, then you have no soul or transcendent mind. Just your physical brain that regulates your life here. What you see, taste, touch, feel. No heart involved. That is, if God doesn't exist.

If He does exist, and he created us, then we have souls and transcendent minds capable of much more than the regular old brain can handle by itself. That's part of what separates us from other animals.
I have to say that there's no way to make you see a different point of view other than yours... The worse kind of blindness is the one self imposed.
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      07-09-2015, 11:46 AM   #885
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
It is not an Atheist argument at all, just like it is not a religious argument either. We are all born with the ability to feel emotions no matter what you believe (or not).
exactly
which is why cosmology and how life came into being, whether we are "designed with a purpose" are a cosmic accident are serious matters

one can make an argument that God created us with the ability to feel emotions and so, such capabilities testify to his design.
A fundamental problem of the materialist worldview is that it fails to account for consciousness....."mind" as it were, existing. because in a materialistic world, even if it were existing infinitely, there is no reason for reason for consciousness to exist........but it does.
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      07-09-2015, 11:47 AM   #886
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Yes I do, zero.

I understand it's hard to grasp at first. But if you look at the different accounts written by different people on different points of view, they actually give MORE details. Not contradictory details.

Like we've done in the past, if you'd like to pull specific passages you find as errors then we'll go over them one by one.
Just Google Bible errors just like you Google the rest of your stuff.
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      07-09-2015, 12:04 PM   #887
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
I have to say that there's no way to make you see a different point of view other than yours... The worse kind of blindness is the one self imposed.

but agreeing with a point of view does not mean one does not see it.
the liberal fallacy that if one disagrees, one does not understand is nonsense

I can understand perfectly and still disagree. Matter of fact, I would not disagree if i did not understand. I would simply suspend judgement or say i don't know.

One of the problems of Atheism, even if we remove the bible from the discussion is that it does not tell how matter comes into being. it does not say why there is something as opposed to nothing. It hold to evolution and naturalism, laws and evidence, but we all have it accept that for life to exist, natural laws as we understand them must have at least ONCE been violated (a supernatural act if you will) for life to come from non life)
it does not account for why does Death exist in living organisms, when rocks, metals and other non organic matter seem to exit forever (or for as long as they are sustained by whatever or whomever is sustaining them)

Outside of arguing whether the God of the bible is a just God, or whether the bible is a his troy book or not, Atheism does not answer these fundamental questions related to being.
and the hypocrisy of the Atheist is to ask for "proof" and evidence of the claimed theist make, but when asked about the above issues raised they claim "we don't know them now, but we are SURE SCIENCE will find out in the future!

Both the theist and the Atheist has to respect the value of science;''s contribution to what we know and how it has increased the quality of information and life we now live. However, one of the problems we have is that a lot of past held science has been proven to be completely wrong by new information and discoveries. One should not be so confident as to say that science will prove us right or validate my beliefs ultimately, especially those of us who keep demanding (tangible) evidence for our claims while ridiculing others for placing too much (blind) faith in this we disagree with.

One of the advantages of the Theist is that even if the scientific findings we now know are all correct, there is very few findings of science contradict biblical claims, bearing in mind scripture is not a scientific document.
Another issue us that it is perfectly plausible for God to have created everything (a supernatural act) but when viewed by us in the natural, seen exactly the way we would perceive it through human eyes.....
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      07-09-2015, 12:13 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
But at the same time it is being used to legislate, impose on people's life and conquer cultures and nations. The Bible is supposed to be an spiritual guide, a PERSONAL relationship with your God of choice.

If you expect the Bible to be the law of the land you should also expect to get a lot of push-back and criticism.


red:

where in the NT test did it ever give any Christian permission to conquer lands, impose on people life or disrupt their culture?
the very essence of Jesus teachings run diametrically opposed to such things, so any misuse of scripture must be placed on those who misused it rather than scripture itself


Blue:

no one is expecting the bible to be the law of the land, even the bible itself and the stories in it, shows how devastating it can be to live in a theocracy. |
Israel itself was better of and its people better able to focus on Holiness when they were under Roman or Persian rule rather than when they were ruled by corrupt kings who kept falling into apostasy and Idolatry.

We know all to well from History what happened for 1260 years when Christianity became the official religion of Rome.
that being said, wanting separation of political and religious power does not mean we should do away with morality and restraint in our society.
All people of Wisdom throughout the ages knew very well that its never a good thing to not have moral restraint and a refusal to recognize divine providence in human affairs
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      07-09-2015, 12:30 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
They can do so in private schools and Christian academy because it is privately funded and they are free to teach which ever curriculum they deem relevant.

It just can't be taught as history in PUBLIC schools
Private schools have a lot of freedom over what they can and cannot teach, but they do have to teach such that their students have a reasonable expectation of being able to pass exams such as the AP History exam or being able to write an college application essay will pass muster in terms of topical relevance. It's not beyond the right of even an entirely secular private school from including the Bible among the required texts for a non-religion class, but I doubt there's any high school (or lower or middle school) that uses the Bible as the sole text for in any such class. It would surprise me to find that in even religion classes at an academically rigorous high school the Bible be the sole text for the class, even if the class' purpose is studying the Bible.

Academics and researchers (or people studying to become one), such as biblical archeologists and historians, routinely use the Bible as a reference and presumably as a textbook. I suppose that anthropology classes may also include the Bible among the required texts. While such classes can occasionally be found in high school course catalogs, most such courses are found in colleges and universities, rather than high schools. The types of high schools that offer archeology, anthropology and the like aren't ones that many students attend, so I think there's not much need to concern oneself over whether they do or not.

To illustrate, below are some course catalogs from schools my kids attended or that I considered sending them to. I don't know what courses are offered by other schools. I do know from my own kids' schools that the range of topics offered in high school these days is considerably broader than it was when I was in high school.
All the best.
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      07-09-2015, 12:38 PM   #890
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Originally Posted by avantegardestyle View Post
For whom is the bible not considered a historic record or a history book?
umm. Everyone who is not in a religious school
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      07-09-2015, 01:33 PM   #891
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Originally Posted by avantegardestyle View Post
...

One of the problems of Atheism, even if we remove the bible from the discussion is that it does not tell how matter comes into being....

Both the theist and the Atheist has to respect the value of science;''s contribution to what we know and how it has increased the quality of information and life we now live. However, one of the problems we have is that a lot of past held science has been proven to be completely wrong by new information and discoveries. One should not be so confident as to say that science will prove us right or validate my beliefs ultimately, especially those of us who keep demanding (tangible) evidence for our claims while ridiculing others for placing too much (blind) faith in this we disagree with.

One of the advantages of the Theist is that even if the scientific findings we now know are all correct, there is very few findings of science contradict biblical claims,
bearing in mind scripture is not a scientific document.

.....
Red:
You consider as a problem the fact that people attempted to explain the world around them and earlier theories they posited were later found to be wrong? I think that's a good thing actually because science, unlike religion, makes falsifiable claims.

I rather thoroughly (considering that this is B-post) discussed the idea of falsifiability and how it applies to science and religion here: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=797 . I know it is a long post, and I wish it weren't, but it's clearly a concept that some folks fail to keep in mind as they compose their comments in this thread. For example, one wouldn't talk about what claims can/have been proven when the central claim upon which one bases a whole system of belief isn't one that is falsifiable.

I consider as a problem religious leaders' interjecting themselves into matters pertaining to the natural world to the extent that they deign -- sometimes even without sufficient scientific training -- to attempt to refute science's theories.

Blue:
Given that science makes falsifiable claims, it's not at all unreasonable that one be confident that science will, over time, prove itself to be correct or incorrect. Religions/religious leaders, in comparison to scientists, are not only especially slow to renounce their long held beliefs, no matter what information comes available to them, but also suffuse with certainty. In fact, religious leaders are so often convinced of the infallibility of their claims that they don't, unlike scientists, objectively and thoroughly investigate whether they may be mistaken.

Religions and religious leaders have a long history of attacking science. Scientists don't attack religious beliefs; they ask questions (make hypotheses) about way the world operates, conduct research to seek answers and confirm their premises, and present their findings, and often enough they don't specifically tell the rest of us how even to use the information they present. They leave that for us to figure out on our own, as well they should.

Religions, were they smart, would cease and desist with making attacks, claims and pronouncements of any sort, most especially promulgations concerning how we are supposed to conduct our lives in light of what we read in the Bible. The sad fact is that religion today is no different that religion was during, say, the early Renaissance in that it fears and does its best to limit the scope of scientific inquiry and practice. That religion does so necessarily inspires one to ask, "Why?" If religious adherents are so certain of their beliefs' verity, why care what science discovers? If one's claims are indeed accurate, sooner or later science will figure out they are. If somehow science establishes that one's beliefs are founded on falsehoods, wouldn't one want to know so that one can alter them?

Above you wrote that you have a problem with scientists making mistakes in their pursuit of knowledge. I find the bigger problem is the "head buried in the sand" stance religions take.

All the best.
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      07-09-2015, 01:50 PM   #892
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avantegardestyle View Post
but agreeing with a point of view does not mean one does not see it.
the liberal fallacy that if one disagrees, one does not understand is nonsense

I can understand perfectly and still disagree. Matter of fact, I would not disagree if i did not understand. I would simply suspend judgement or say i don't know.

One of the problems of Atheism, even if we remove the bible from the discussion is that it does not tell how matter comes into being. it does not say why there is something as opposed to nothing. It hold to evolution and naturalism, laws and evidence, but we all have it accept that for life to exist, natural laws as we understand them must have at least ONCE been violated (a supernatural act if you will) for life to come from non life)
it does not account for why does Death exist in living organisms, when rocks, metals and other non organic matter seem to exit forever (or for as long as they are sustained by whatever or whomever is sustaining them)

Outside of arguing whether the God of the bible is a just God, or whether the bible is a his troy book or not, Atheism does not answer these fundamental questions related to being.
and the hypocrisy of the Atheist is to ask for "proof" and evidence of the claimed theist make, but when asked about the above issues raised they claim "we don't know them now, but we are SURE SCIENCE will find out in the future!

Both the theist and the Atheist has to respect the value of science;''s contribution to what we know and how it has increased the quality of information and life we now live. However, one of the problems we have is that a lot of past held science has been proven to be completely wrong by new information and discoveries. One should not be so confident as to say that science will prove us right or validate my beliefs ultimately, especially those of us who keep demanding (tangible) evidence for our claims while ridiculing others for placing too much (blind) faith in this we disagree with.

One of the advantages of the Theist is that even if the scientific findings we now know are all correct, there is very few findings of science contradict biblical claims, bearing in mind scripture is not a scientific document.
Another issue us that it is perfectly plausible for God to have created everything (a supernatural act) but when viewed by us in the natural, seen exactly the way we would perceive it through human eyes.....
As an Atheist I do not stop at "God did it" when I do not know something. I do rely on science and scientific discoveries just like you do. As far as science being wrong, that is the beauty of it... The discoveries never end and the amazement and power that gives a new discovery is what keeps us motivated and open minded. Earlier in this thread we have established that science cannot touch religion since there's no way to prove that God exists, or that a bush can catch on fire, or that Lot's wife became a pillar of salt, or that a penguin walked all the way from the south pole to Noah's arc, etc... But common sense, logic and the knowledge we have about science in general, physics, etc assures that there's no way a phenomena like the ones in the Bible can happen. That is were the blind faith comes from.

The term "we don't know them now, but we are SURE SCIENCE will find out in the future!" as you stated is not exclusive of Atheism. I'm 100% sure that you are hopeful science will find a cure for lethal diseases such as cancer and that the automotive industry will develop the technology to avoid accidents, etc, etc, etc... That is our nature sir. We EVOLVE and develop new skills and tools to improve our race, it is part of our DNA.

Death is very well understood by science, that is why we keep cheating death by living longer. And you answered your own question when comparing organic with non-organic, please don't make me explain elementary school science.
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      07-09-2015, 02:18 PM   #893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avantegardestyle View Post
[/COLOR]
where in the NT test did it ever give any Christian permission to conquer lands, impose on people life or disrupt their culture?
A couple:

Hebrews 11:33
Revelation 6:2

Why do you think the crusades happened? Why do you think the missions happened? How do you think native Americans were conquered? How do you think Vikings disappeared?

You can defend the Bible all you want, you cannot justify what Christians have done throughout the past centuries in the name of religion.
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      07-09-2015, 02:48 PM   #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
A couple:

Hebrews 11:33
Revelation 6:2


Why do you think the crusades happened? Why do you think the missions happened? How do you think native Americans were conquered? How do you think Vikings disappeared?

You can defend the Bible all you want, you cannot justify what Christians have done throughout the past centuries in the name of religion.
I cannot help but laugh

So Hebrews said David and Solomon conquered Kingdoms by faith and you take ut that it gave Christians permission to go out and conquer lands........then you accuse bible believers of taking a literal interpretation of text while doing the worse kind of Isegesis that could possibly be done?

I wouldn't even bother to comment of the revelation as i don't know how you could have gotten such an understanding from that...text
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      07-09-2015, 03:12 PM   #895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
As an Atheist I do not stop at "God did it" when I do not know something. I do rely on science and scientific discoveries just like you do. As far as science being wrong, that is the beauty of it... The discoveries never end and the amazement and power that gives a new discovery is what keeps us motivated and open minded. Earlier in this thread we have established that science cannot touch religion since there's no way to prove that God exists, or that a bush can catch on fire, or that Lot's wife became a pillar of salt, or that a penguin walked all the way from the south pole to Noah's arc, etc... But common sense, logic and the knowledge we have about science in general, physics, etc assures that there's no way a phenomena like the ones in the Bible can happen. That is were the blind faith comes from.

The term "we don't know them now, but we are SURE SCIENCE will find out in the future!" as you stated is not exclusive of Atheism. I'm 100% sure that you are hopeful science will find a cure for lethal diseases such as cancer and that the automotive industry will develop the technology to avoid accidents, etc, etc, etc... That is our nature sir. We EVOLVE and develop new skills and tools to improve our race, it is part of our DNA.

Death is very well understood by science, that is why we keep cheating death by living longer. And you answered your own question when comparing organic with non-organic, please don't make me explain elementary school science.
Bold:
God can be known to exist, and the problem of science not being able to prove Gods existence is that the bible speaks CLEARLY, BEFORE SCIENCE DEVELOPED AS WE KNOW IT, that God is Spirit. As such it would be impossible to prove the existence of God within a purely materialistic framework. So what science has done is to deny the existence of anything that does not subject itself to its methods and pretend that those methods are the ONLY methods that can legitimately verify or authenticate anything that exist. To those of us who are willing to accept the existence of the spiritual realm, God is known, alive, and real being we interact with and fellowship with on a plane that the Atheist refuses to acknowledge legitimately exist.

The Hypocrisy of this is things like morals, beauty, justice love, fairness, order etc, are all non scientific aspects of our world and aspects so necessary to our understanding and development that we do not deny them. The dishonestly of the Atheist is they appeal to such things when it benefits them, but deny them when they are posited as evidence that materialism by itself is incapable of providing a full understanding of our world.
THERE IS NO ESCAPING THIS. No getting around it.
Even if you argue for science, and deny the miracles of the Bible by making a claim to the laws of Physics. the laws of Physics did not come into being by themselves. They are a part of a universe that we know had a beginning

what does account for their existence?
what continue to sustain them?
Why not Chaos instead of order?

How is it that the laws of Physics were violated, not once but on several occasions?


The first being order coming from Chaos
the Second being life coming from Non life
the third being that the diversity of life that we see, means that there is some force that is greater than the natural entropy existing in the universe that allows for complex life to exist.

These are things that the Atheist must address, and they have nothing to do with the bible, but basic observable aspects of our universe and its laws that we must contemplate and produce reasonable answers for within the worldview that we hold.

I wish that you would address these issues specifically within the context of an Atheistic worldview. Until those questions can be sufficiently address within such a viewpoint. it is perfectly acceptable to argue for the existence of an all powerful God. Not because we fear hell, but because all these things force us to the conclusions and answers to questions that materialism by virtue of its narrow scope has excluded from its reach


2nd BOLD:

I do not hope for science to develop cures for diseases or to eliminate car accidents.
Of course i am all for improvements and eliminating human suffering. However the greatest problem we have now is not death through illness or accident, but a lack of love and caring for our fellowmen. More of our brothers and Sisters are slaughtered mercilessly at the hands of human being that those who are killed in car accidents and through diseases.
there are people in this world with perfectly healthy bodies, whose minds are so sick that they inflict great pain upon themselves and others or even kill people while they are alive by destroying their spirit and making Zombies out of them.

I am more concerned about a world where love, harmony, caring for the dignity and spiritual well being of others are a greater priority than preventing accidents and diseases. As far as i am concerned, science, and western approach to living in particular, with its reductionist approach to live, and its capitalist exploitation of humans, will never realize this through its scientific methods.

there is a reason why Meditation and Yoga etc.......all non western approaches to wellness have taken America and the west by storm. it happened because such things, whether they be right or wrong, speak to an aspect of our being, that European atheism and American Materialism has ignored for centuries now and people have come to recognize that that was a profound mistake......

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      07-09-2015, 03:33 PM   #896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avantegardestyle View Post

I am more concerned about a world where love, harmony, caring for the dignity and spiritual well being of others are a greater priority than preventing accidents and diseases. As far as i am concerned, science, and western approach to living in particular, with its reductionist approach to live, and its capitalist exploitation of humans, will never realize this through its scientific methods.

there is a reason why Meditation and Yoga etc.......all non western approaches to wellness have taken America and the west by storm. it happened because such things, whether they be right or wrong, speak to an aspect of our being, that European atheism and American Materialism has ignored for centuries now and people have come to recognize that that was a profound mistake......
Atheism, capitalism and materialism are not the same thing.

There are many groups of people that do volunteer work and help out in the community. These groups are not religious. I regularly volunteer at my local food bank to help provide food to people in need. I volunteer with habitat for humanity - building homes for low income people so they can have a chance at home ownership. We build care packages for cancer patients to show that people care and are trying to help their suffering. I and the groups I volunteer with are not religious at all. But we are helping to make the world a better place for those who live in it.

Don't blame the bad things in the world due to a lack of God.
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      07-09-2015, 03:38 PM   #897
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
You have evidence of God all around you. His creation. Plus, as others have said, if one takes an active position on the statement there is no God, it is up to them to defend it, either for or against.
I see where we disagree, and I don't think either of us is going to change.

I see interesting, amazing things around me but I don't see it as evidence of anything. It could be God, it could be random chance, it could be "The Matrix" (I like your avatar), it could be something totally different neither of us can comprehend. I'm content to say I don't know, and not inclined in the least to say God did it. I suppose it's how some people are wired differently.

I see your point on the active position of "there is no God". I may have misspoke if I said or implied that to be where I stand. I'm simply not convinced there is a God. I will concede that it is possible, I just find it highly unlikely because I don't see any evidence for it. I'll change my mind if God's existence is proven to me, otherwise it's just one of an infinite number of explanations that doesn't have anything to back it up. I don't have any need to prove his non-existence, I accept it to be the case unless proven otherwise.

Which gets us back to the evidence thing, which we are unlikely to ever agree on.
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      07-09-2015, 04:16 PM   #898
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z K View Post
Atheism, capitalism and materialism are not the same thing.

There are many groups of people that do volunteer work and help out in the community. These groups are not religious. I regularly volunteer at my local food bank to help provide food to people in need. I volunteer with habitat for humanity - building homes for low income people so they can have a chance at home ownership. We build care packages for cancer patients to show that people care and are trying to help their suffering. I and the groups I volunteer with are not religious at all. But we are helping to make the world a better place for those who live in it.

Don't blame the bad things in the world due to a lack of God.
While you don't need it I applaud you for doing the things you do. i do not blame a lack of God for the world problems, there is no lack of God in the world

but your actions testify to something, the very thing i am speaking of.
there is no scientific explanation for your desire to see the word being a better place. and by doing the things you do, you are fighting against suffering, decay, death and the entropy around us that by naturalism owns approach is and should be accreted as a natural part of our existence.

by virtue of seeking to make things better to do good, it testifies to the fact that we want better, that there is something greater than us, in us, pulling us towards collectively making ourselves and others better.
there is nothing in naturalism and science to account for that.....
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      07-09-2015, 04:18 PM   #899
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Wanting things to be better is human nature not evidence of god. Most don't want things to devolve into shit but lack motivation to do anything about it but bitch.
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      07-09-2015, 05:01 PM   #900
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avantegardestyle View Post
but your actions testify to something, the very thing i am speaking of.
there is no scientific explanation for your desire to see the word being a better place. and by doing the things you do, you are fighting against suffering, decay, death and the entropy around us that by naturalism owns approach is and should be accreted as a natural part of our existence.
Altruistic behavior is not a religious concept. It existed before the existence of religion. Animals display the same behavior as well. Humans are social creatures and we like to be with others. In order to function with others, we need to help and work together. In that way, humans naturally help one another when in groups.

Here's an article that talks about this.
http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/0...or-altruistic/
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      07-09-2015, 05:15 PM   #901
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You can't argue against faith. It's the cornerstone of religion. You believe or you don't. It's impossible to argue something someone has so much emotionally invested in.
You have faith that there is no God. Yes, I am serious. Think this through. For there to be no God (creator) you literally believe that something can poof out of nothing, and for no reason. Totally illogical, yet you believe that. Is that not faith?

Someone here think that the answer comes from light, water and oxygen. WTF?
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      07-09-2015, 05:19 PM   #902
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Originally Posted by QC View Post
You have faith that there is no God. Yes, I am serious. Think this through. For there to be no God (creator) you literally believe that something can poof out of nothing, and for no reason. Totally illogical, yet you believe that. Is that not faith?

Someone here think that the answer comes from light, water and oxygen. WTF?
No because God doesn't exist doesn't rule out every other possibility. We don't know how it happened for certainty yet shouldn't mean automatic leap to god did it. That's silly.
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