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      05-27-2015, 06:03 AM   #1
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Christianity

Talking to a Christian friend about this, came up with some questions which were not answered... Decided to post them here to hear what you have to say. I'm sure a few of you will get offended and irritated so if you have thin skin or believe Atheists should die then this is not the thread for you.

You are a Christian which means you believe Jesus is your Lord and savior. Jesus is the son of God, the one who wrote the Old Testament. Christians do not follow the Old Testament.

If you agree with the above statement then who decided to stop following the Old Testament? Why?

If you believe in God, shouldn't you follow his word (Old Testament)?

How come a Christian does not follow the Old Testament but follows the 10 commandments? Both are the word of God.

Most prayers are towards God, not Jesus. Assume you are God for a minute... Would you be OK with someone praying to you but not following your word?

God sent his son to saves us all. Before the Jesus idea God flooded the whole world killing everything and everybody. How come God didn't send Jesus back then?
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      05-27-2015, 09:21 AM   #2
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The Old Testament outlined life before Christ came.

Excerpt from www.gotquestions.org, "The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15)."

We use the term today "Born-again Christian" to refer to the New Testament, which is the way things are for us today. Jesus has come, died on the cross, and has risen. We don't make sacrifices any more (obviously) because the ultimate sacrifice has already been paid.

Also, God is part of a trinity. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Prayer is to God in the whole sense. Saying "Jesus" or "God" at the beginning of your prayer makes no difference.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions. Keep em coming
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      05-27-2015, 09:35 AM   #3
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Oh and to touch on your last topic, you have to understand the way the world was directly before the flood.

Excerpt from answersfromthebook.org, "In considering why God sent the Flood, we must first realize that those living upon the Earth were completely and utterly wicked beyond the hope of changing. There were no innocent bystanders caught up in the Flood; everyone was guilty of the most deplorable sinfulness. The rebellion against God that we saw taking root in Cain and his descendants had now reached a fruition that God could not overlook."

I would also refer you to Genesis. Genesis 6:5 says, "The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." NIV

Also, come at this scientifically. God doesn't live in our little 4 dimensional world (three dimensions of space and one dimension of time). He is outside the limits of our linear time frame. God can see what was, what is, and what is to come for us because He isn't limited by the laws and regulations of this world.
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      05-27-2015, 09:38 AM   #4
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bmwmsport, thanks for your response. It kind of answers but not completely.

So the OT was given to the nation of Israel. What about the other nations? The Vikings and most of Scandinavia didn't believe in Christ or the Old Testament God until 1100 or so.

Does that mean they went straight to hell since they didn't believe in the OT God?
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      05-27-2015, 09:40 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Oh and to touch on your last topic, you have to understand the way the world was directly before the flood.

Excerpt from answersfromthebook.org, "In considering why God sent the Flood, we must first realize that those living upon the Earth were completely and utterly wicked beyond the hope of changing. There were no innocent bystanders caught up in the Flood; everyone was guilty of the most deplorable sinfulness. The rebellion against God that we saw taking root in Cain and his descendants had now reached a fruition that God could not overlook."

I would also refer you to Genesis. Genesis 6:5 says, "The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." NIV

Also, come at this scientifically. God doesn't live in our little 4 dimensional world (three dimensions of space and one dimension of time). He is outside the limits of our linear time frame. God can see what was, what is, and what is to come for us because He isn't limited by the laws and regulations of this world.
So God got pissed and pushed the panic button... Why didn't he send Jesus instead?
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      05-27-2015, 01:59 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
bmwmsport, thanks for your response. It kind of answers but not completely.

So the OT was given to the nation of Israel. What about the other nations? The Vikings and most of Scandinavia didn't believe in Christ or the Old Testament God until 1100 or so.

Does that mean they went straight to hell since they didn't believe in the OT God?
1) The Old Testament wasn't given to anyone. It is a compilation of old scripture that was recorded by the ancient Hebrews, though there seem to be similar stories/ideas recorded by other ancient religions (the great flood for example).

2) Neither the vikings nor Scandinavia were ever a cohesive nation or nation group. They were a diverse group of independent germanic peoples who lived in Northern Europe (modern day Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden).

3) Why wasn't the Old Testament recorded by people other than the Hebrews? If you believe in God, the answer is: 'Who the hell knows?'
If you don't believe in God, the answer is: 'Everyone has different world view when they record history/traditions/beliefs.' The Vikings had their own belief system, different from that of the Hebrews'.
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      05-27-2015, 02:19 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
If you agree with the above statement then who decided to stop following the Old Testament? Why?
What do you mean by "follow" the Old Testament? Most of the Old Testament consists of stories/parables, Hewbrew traditions/heritage and recorded interactions with God. How does one "follow" the story of Cain and Able or Jonah and the Whale?

As for Christians abiding by or "following" the Old Testament, most Christians recognize it as the context or foundation for Christianity, but not the penultimate source of how to live life. Christianity, comes from the word "Christ." So to be a Christian means to be a follower of Christ...all of his teachings are outlined in the New Testament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
If you believe in God, shouldn't you follow his word (Old Testament)?
See the above response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
How come a Christian does not follow the Old Testament but follows the 10 commandments? Both are the word of God.
The Ten Commandments were outlined in the Old Testament. Again they provide a foundation for both Christianity and Judaism, but for Christians the specific teachings/lessons come from Christ (in the New Testament).

The Old Testament is considered the word of God or someone's inerpretation of God's word depending on the book you are referring to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
Most prayers are towards God, not Jesus. Assume you are God for a minute... Would you be OK with someone praying to you but not following your word?
Most Christians believe in the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), thus believing the God and Jesus are one in the same. Therefore a prayer to Jesus is the same as a prayer to God.

Some Christians have nuanced views on the Trinity, but they all at least believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and a divine prophet. Thus, even, in this case praying to Jesus (God's earthly representative) is still a way to communicate with God.

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Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
God sent his son to saves us all. Before the Jesus idea God flooded the whole world killing everything and everybody. How come God didn't send Jesus back then?
Everyone will have a different answer on that. But for the record, very few Christians or Jews actually believe that God flooded the whole world. Christians, for the most part, don't have a literal interpretation of most stories from the Old Testament (the great flood, 7 days of Creation, ect.). They are viewed in a more symbolic sense by most.
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      05-27-2015, 03:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
What do you mean by "follow" the Old Testament? Most of the Old Testament consists of stories/parables, Hewbrew traditions/heritage and recorded interactions with God. How does one "follow" the story of Cain and Able or Jonah and the Whale?

As for Christians abiding by or "following" the Old Testament, most Christians recognize it as the context or foundation for Christianity, but not the penultimate source of how to live life. Christianity, comes from the word "Christ." So to be a Christian means to be a follower of Christ...all of his teachings are outlined in the New Testament.
The OT gives you a ton of laws and rules to follow:

Having sex with a woman how is menstruating
Homosexual relationships
eating pork
etc, etc, etc...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
See the above response.
See the above response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
The Ten Commandments were outlined in the Old Testament. Again they provide a foundation for both Christianity and Judaism, but for Christians the specific teachings/lessons come from Christ (in the New Testament).

The Old Testament is considered the word of God or someone's inerpretation of God's word depending on the book you are referring to.
It seems like the OT provided the foundation but the inconvenient stuff was the only part taken out or not followed. If you believe in God shouldn't you follow and respect his word?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Most Christians believe in the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), thus believing the God and Jesus are one in the same. Therefore a prayer to Jesus is the same as a prayer to God.

Some Christians have nuanced views on the Trinity, but they all at least believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and a divine prophet. Thus, even, in this case praying to Jesus (God's earthly representative) is still a way to communicate with God.
So let me get this straight.... God decided to become human through Jesus to sacrifice himself to himself in order to create a loophole that he created

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Everyone will have a different answer on that. But for the record, very few Christians or Jews actually believe that God flooded the whole world. Christians, for the most part, don't have a literal interpretation of most stories from the Old Testament (the great flood, 7 days of Creation, ect.). They are viewed in a more symbolic sense by most.
So it is a matter of choosing what fits your intellect... For example, I find it hard to believe that two penguins walked all the way to the desert in the middle east from Antartica to get on Noah's ark.

Wouldn't that make a religious person less religious?

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      05-27-2015, 03:03 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
1) The Old Testament wasn't given to anyone. It is a compilation of old scripture that was recorded by the ancient Hebrews, though there seem to be similar stories/ideas recorded by other ancient religions (the great flood for example).

2) Neither the vikings nor Scandinavia were ever a cohesive nation or nation group. They were a diverse group of independent germanic peoples who lived in Northern Europe (modern day Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden).

3) Why wasn't the Old Testament recorded by people other than the Hebrews? If you believe in God, the answer is: 'Who the hell knows?'
If you don't believe in God, the answer is: 'Everyone has different world view when they record history/traditions/beliefs.' The Vikings had their own belief system, different from that of the Hebrews'.
Alright so taking the "nation" apart and trying to stick to the point. Do you have an answer to my question?

How come the OT was recorded in such a small area? Would you agree that other Gods are as valid as the OT God? I'm curious to know why God didn't speak to the Aztecs or Mayans or even the Vikings.
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      05-27-2015, 03:53 PM   #10
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Alright so taking the "nation" apart and trying to stick to the point. Do you have an answer to my question?

How come the OT was recorded in such a small area? Would you agree that other Gods are as valid as the OT God? I'm curious to know why God didn't speak to the Aztecs or Mayans or even the Vikings.
"The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities- His eternal power and divine nature. So they can have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God." Romans 1:19-20 NLT

The Bible outlines terms of salvation in which God chooses us, not the other way around. Paul makes it clear in Romans that God speaks to everyone in General Revelation (this is the evidence around you and I- Earth, sky, water, planets, the solar system, etc.) and Special Revelation (what the Holy Spirit reveals to us through the Bible. So it would be incorrect to assume that God didn't "speak" to the Aztecs and Mayans.
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      05-27-2015, 04:48 PM   #11
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The OT gives you a ton of laws and rules to follow:

Having sex with a woman how is menstruating
Homosexual relationships
eating pork
etc, etc, etc...
The Old Testament consists of mostly stories and Hebrew traditions (there is some historical context to some of what is covered).

The only actual rules that were outlined were the 10 commandments, which most Christians generally abide by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
It seems like the OT provided the foundation but the inconvenient stuff was the only part taken out or not followed. If you believe in God shouldn't you follow and respect his word?
Again what "word" are you referring to? How do you "follow" the story of Cain and Able? Most of the Old testament was a description of contemporary Judaic society just as much as it was an interpretation of God.

And the only hard rules outlined in the Old Testament are the 10 Commandments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
So let me get this straight.... God decided to become human through Jesus to sacrifice himself to himself in order to create a loophole that he created
According to conventional Christian doctrine, Jesus was the physical,earthly manifestation of God. Jesus' crucifixion on the Cross was meant to symbolize God's willingness to sacrifice his welfare for humanity's moral salvation.

The concept of the trinity and Jesus' sacrifice are covered in great length in many different theological books and the Bible itself. You would be better served by researching there rather than asking the same questions over and over again on a car forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausPA View Post
So it is a matter of choosing what fits your intellect... For example, I find it hard to believe that two penguins walked all the way to the desert in the middle east from Antartica to get on Noah's ark.

Wouldn't that make a religious person less religious?
Everyone is different on this issue, including you obviously. However most people, including the majority of Christians, have a basic scientific understanding of how life on this earth has evolved. As a result, most read the Bible for the symbolic lessons and morals it preaches, and not to learn where all the animals came from.

I think the argument you are making carries very little weight with most people, religious or non-religious. I know of very few religious people who refuse to acknowledge the logic behind physics and math, and who dispute scientific findings purely because of their faith in some 'higher power.'

As for the crux of the matter: how does a belief in God co-exist with science/math/observation which has provided no proof of his existence? That's has to do with someone's faith and personal beliefs, none of which are really tangible or quantifiable. And everyone has a different way of rationalizing that.

Your questions seem to be looking for answers/opinion validation that you have already claimed as your own. I would say that is a sign of mild trolling, but on this forum that is to be expected.
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      05-28-2015, 01:25 PM   #12
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Talking to a Christian friend about this, came up with some questions which were not answered... Decided to post them here to hear what you have to say. I'm sure a few of you will get offended and irritated so if you have thin skin or believe Atheists should die then this is not the thread for you.

You are a Christian which means you believe Jesus is your Lord and savior. Jesus is the son of God, the one who wrote the Old Testament. Christians do not follow the Old Testament.
  1. If you agree with the above statement then who decided to stop following the Old Testament? Why?
  2. If you believe in God, shouldn't you follow his word (Old Testament)?
  3. How come a Christian does not follow the Old Testament but follows the 10 commandments? Both are the word of God.
  4. Most prayers are towards God, not Jesus. Assume you are God for a minute... Would you be OK with someone praying to you but not following your word?
  5. God sent his son to saves us all. Before the Jesus idea God flooded the whole world killing everything and everybody. How come God didn't send Jesus back then?
First off, let's be clear: the Christian Bible includes most of the books of the Old Testament (OT). Some of those books are considered by some versions of Christianity to be apocryphal, but in the main, Christianity accepts the OT as divinely inspired writing.

Questions 1-3
To try and address your questions, I'd first point you to this: My own take on the matter is that Jesus offered one simple commandment: love your neighbor as yourself. That statement has also been expressed as "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you." Now as I see it, if one does that, one has commandments five through ten covered. The thing is that Jesus was big on giving rules and telling folks what to do. (http://www.loveallpeople.org/pearl-t...tsofjesus.html)

Another thing is that as far as I know, Jesus didn't say to ignore the Ten Commandments and to the best of my knowledge, Christianity doesn't either. Rather, Christianity supplements them by introducing even more "stuff" one must do.

One thing that I think you are overlooking is that for Christians, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. That's what the Holy Trinity is all about. Given that the three are one, one can then say that the words of God in the OT are also the words of Jesus. You either accept that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three and one all at once, or you don't. That's faith.

I know Catholicism is a trinitarian form of Christianity, but there are some that are not. I cannot speak to how non-trinitarians reconcile the matter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism)

Question 4:
I cannot assume for any period of time that I am omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. I can assume that what I know, God knows. I can assume that what I feel, God feels. I can assume that where I am, God is. I cannot turn things around and deign to believe that what he knows, feels, and where he is, I share with him.

It'd be the height of hubris for me or anyone else to attempt to see things as such a being can. It's simply impossible. I can speak to what I'd think as a human about my supposed adherents not adhering in one way or another, but I can't say how God would feel about that.

I think you are confusing the idea of the Christian God is with that of how the Greek and Roman gods are. The latter pantheon of Gods were identified as being very much like humans, only with super powers. They had/have the very same emotions and have the same flaws as the humans who worship them.

The same cannot be said of the Christian God. We humans can interpret God's acts and words as best we can, but we cannot presume that we fully grasp the entirety of Him.

I'll ask you this. If you speak to your children and ask them to put themselves in your shoes, is it at all reasonable that they could even do so? Of course it isn't. They haven't your experience or knowledge. So too can we not put ourselves in God's shoes.

Question 5:
Jesus wasn't an idea. He was, to Christians, the human form of God.

The answer to your question of why God didn't make himself man back in Noah's time remains a mystery. Neither you nor I nor anyone else can say why. Presumably God didn't think that was the appropriate solution and given that he's all knowing, Christians have to accept that he was right.

Other:
It seems to me that, based on the nature of some of your questions, you have issues with faith. Faith is the thing that allows one to accept the "stuff" in whatever religion to which one ascribes that cannot be explained by rational human thought, the things that one's religion nor anything else can unequivocally prove. Faith is one of those things one has or one doesn't have. That's why it's called faith.

I don't know it for a fact, but I suspect too that you may be having issues with the distinction between what is documented in the Bible and what various organized religions have told you. I know for myself, I take one of Jesus' instructions -- pray privately -- as the indication that I don't need to participate in any organized religion and I don't.

I try to live my life, as best I can, and in the way Jesus instructed, but I don't belong to any church or organized religion. I happen to think that too many organized religions have done far too many things that God/Jesus would not have approved of that I want no part of them. When the time comes for God to decide what to do with me and my soul, he'll just have to decide based on what I've done and not done, and one the things I will not have done is participate in an organized religion. I'm okay with that.

All the best.
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      05-28-2015, 02:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
[/LIST] First off, let's be clear: the Christian Bible includes most of the books of the Old Testament (OT). Some of those books are considered by some versions of Christianity to be apocryphal, but in the main, Christianity accepts the OT as divinely inspired writing.

Questions 1-3
To try and address your questions, I'd first point you to this: My own take on the matter is that Jesus offered one simple commandment: love your neighbor as yourself. That statement has also been expressed as "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you." Now as I see it, if one does that, one has commandments five through ten covered. The thing is that Jesus was big on giving rules and telling folks what to do. (http://www.loveallpeople.org/pearl-t...tsofjesus.html)

Another thing is that as far as I know, Jesus didn't say to ignore the Ten Commandments and to the best of my knowledge, Christianity doesn't either. Rather, Christianity supplements them by introducing even more "stuff" one must do.

One thing that I think you are overlooking is that for Christians, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. That's what the Holy Trinity is all about. Given that the three are one, one can then say that the words of God in the OT are also the words of Jesus. You either accept that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three and one all at once, or you don't. That's faith.

I know Catholicism is a trinitarian form of Christianity, but there are some that are not. I cannot speak to how non-trinitarians reconcile the matter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism)

Question 4:
I cannot assume for any period of time that I am omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. I can assume that what I know, God knows. I can assume that what I feel, God feels. I can assume that where I am, God is. I cannot turn things around and deign to believe that what he knows, feels, and where he is, I share with him.

It'd be the height of hubris for me or anyone else to attempt to see things as such a being can. It's simply impossible. I can speak to what I'd think as a human about my supposed adherents not adhering in one way or another, but I can't say how God would feel about that.

I think you are confusing the idea of the Christian God is with that of how the Greek and Roman gods are. The latter pantheon of Gods were identified as being very much like humans, only with super powers. They had/have the very same emotions and have the same flaws as the humans who worship them.

The same cannot be said of the Christian God. We humans can interpret God's acts and words as best we can, but we cannot presume that we fully grasp the entirety of Him.

I'll ask you this. If you speak to your children and ask them to put themselves in your shoes, is it at all reasonable that they could even do so? Of course it isn't. They haven't your experience or knowledge. So too can we not put ourselves in God's shoes.

Question 5:
Jesus wasn't an idea. He was, to Christians, the human form of God.

The answer to your question of why God didn't make himself man back in Noah's time remains a mystery. Neither you nor I nor anyone else can say why. Presumably God didn't think that was the appropriate solution and given that he's all knowing, Christians have to accept that he was right.

Other:
It seems to me that, based on the nature of some of your questions, you have issues with faith. Faith is the thing that allows one to accept the "stuff" in whatever religion to which one ascribes that cannot be explained by rational human thought, the things that one's religion nor anything else can unequivocally prove. Faith is one of those things one has or one doesn't have. That's why it's called faith.

I don't know it for a fact, but I suspect too that you may be having issues with the distinction between what is documented in the Bible and what various organized religions have told you. I know for myself, I take one of Jesus' instructions -- pray privately -- as the indication that I don't need to participate in any organized religion and I don't.

I try to live my life, as best I can, and in the way Jesus instructed, but I don't belong to any church or organized religion. I happen to think that too many organized religions have done far too many things that God/Jesus would not have approved of that I want no part of them. When the time comes for God to decide what to do with me and my soul, he'll just have to decide based on what I've done and not done, and one the things I will not have done is participate in an organized religion. I'm okay with that.

All the best.
Thank you for your post sir, very informative.

It seems like you have taken God and Christianity and made it your own based on your interpretation. I believe that is what religion is about.

I have no issues with faith in God/Jesus/religion since I am an Atheist.

How do you reconcile the fact that God sent his son down to earth to save the human kind from himself?
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      05-28-2015, 04:11 PM   #14
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Thank you for your post sir, very informative.

It seems like you have taken God and Christianity and made it your own based on your interpretation. I believe that is what religion is about.

I have no issues with faith in God/Jesus/religion since I am an Atheist.

How do you reconcile the fact that God sent his son down to earth to save the human kind from himself?
He didn't send Jesus to save mankind from himself, rather quite the opposite. First off, let's start by defining terms. Hell is a place only defined by what it doesn't have- God's love. God doesn't send you to hell as such. In the same way, He didn't send his son to save us from himself. He sent Jesus to save us from LACK of God's love, which we know as hell.

Also, you claim to be atheist. I would like you to please provide one evidence/proof that God does NOT exist. Complete, whole, undeniable proof.
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      05-28-2015, 08:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
He didn't send Jesus to save mankind from himself, rather quite the opposite. First off, let's start by defining terms. Hell is a place only defined by what it doesn't have- God's love. God doesn't send you to hell as such. In the same way, He didn't send his son to save us from himself. He sent Jesus to save us from LACK of God's love, which we know as hell.
God created it all, that includes hell and evil. He sent Jesus to saves us from his creation.

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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Also, you claim to be atheist. I would like you to please provide one evidence/proof that God does NOT exist. Complete, whole, undeniable proof.
It is up to the believer to prove his belief, not the other way around. You are pretty much saying "you cannot prove that God doesn't exist, if you can't then he exists"

You might have reasons to believe that God exists but because the existence of God cannot be disproven should not be one of them.

Do you believe is aliens, Santa, the tooth fairy? Why not? Prove me that they do not exist.
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      05-28-2015, 08:38 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
[/LIST] First off, let's be clear: the Christian Bible includes most of the books of the Old Testament (OT). Some of those books are considered by some versions of Christianity to be apocryphal, but in the main, Christianity accepts the OT as divinely inspired writing.
Yes but to the OP's main question of why Christians don't "follow" the Old Testament the same way they do follow Christ's teachings...you're not really addressing that.

Christians = followers of Christ. The Old Testament is considered "divinely inspired" but:
A) is heavily influenced by contemporary Judaic norms/traditions (don't eat pork for example). As such, the human authors who wrote the Old Testament still had some bias when they wrote it.
B) Besides the Ten Commandments, contains very little in the way of concrete religious law.
C) Christ's preachings were recorded in the New Testament; Christians therefore place more credibility in the New Testament than anything that is preached in the Old Testament.

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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Questions 1-3
To try and address your questions, I'd first point you to this: My own take on the matter is that Jesus offered one simple commandment: love your neighbor as yourself. That statement has also been expressed as "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you." Now as I see it, if one does that, one has commandments five through ten covered. The thing is that Jesus was big on giving rules and telling folks what to do. (http://www.loveallpeople.org/pearl-t...tsofjesus.html)

Another thing is that as far as I know, Jesus didn't say to ignore the Ten Commandments and to the best of my knowledge, Christianity doesn't either. Rather, Christianity supplements them by introducing even more "stuff" one must do.

One thing that I think you are overlooking is that for Christians, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. That's what the Holy Trinity is all about. Given that the three are one, one can then say that the words of God in the OT are also the words of Jesus. You either accept that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three and one all at once, or you don't. That's faith.

I know Catholicism is a trinitarian form of Christianity, but there are some that are not. I cannot speak to how non-trinitarians reconcile the matter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism)

Question 4:
I cannot assume for any period of time that I am omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. I can assume that what I know, God knows. I can assume that what I feel, God feels. I can assume that where I am, God is. I cannot turn things around and deign to believe that what he knows, feels, and where he is, I share with him.

It'd be the height of hubris for me or anyone else to attempt to see things as such a being can. It's simply impossible. I can speak to what I'd think as a human about my supposed adherents not adhering in one way or another, but I can't say how God would feel about that.

I think you are confusing the idea of the Christian God is with that of how the Greek and Roman gods are. The latter pantheon of Gods were identified as being very much like humans, only with super powers. They had/have the very same emotions and have the same flaws as the humans who worship them.

The same cannot be said of the Christian God. We humans can interpret God's acts and words as best we can, but we cannot presume that we fully grasp the entirety of Him.

I'll ask you this. If you speak to your children and ask them to put themselves in your shoes, is it at all reasonable that they could even do so? Of course it isn't. They haven't your experience or knowledge. So too can we not put ourselves in God's shoes.

Question 5:
Jesus wasn't an idea. He was, to Christians, the human form of God.

The answer to your question of why God didn't make himself man back in Noah's time remains a mystery. Neither you nor I nor anyone else can say why. Presumably God didn't think that was the appropriate solution and given that he's all knowing, Christians have to accept that he was right.

Other:
It seems to me that, based on the nature of some of your questions, you have issues with faith. Faith is the thing that allows one to accept the "stuff" in whatever religion to which one ascribes that cannot be explained by rational human thought, the things that one's religion nor anything else can unequivocally prove. Faith is one of those things one has or one doesn't have. That's why it's called faith.

I don't know it for a fact, but I suspect too that you may be having issues with the distinction between what is documented in the Bible and what various organized religions have told you. I know for myself, I take one of Jesus' instructions -- pray privately -- as the indication that I don't need to participate in any organized religion and I don't.

I try to live my life, as best I can, and in the way Jesus instructed, but I don't belong to any church or organized religion. I happen to think that too many organized religions have done far too many things that God/Jesus would not have approved of that I want no part of them. When the time comes for God to decide what to do with me and my soul, he'll just have to decide based on what I've done and not done, and one the things I will not have done is participate in an organized religion. I'm okay with that.

All the best.
Hmmm...All this sounds vaguely familiar....it's almost as if someone else posted most of this information in a previous comment....
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      05-29-2015, 08:34 AM   #17
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God created it all, that includes hell and evil. He sent Jesus to saves us from his creation.



It is up to the believer to prove his belief, not the other way around. You are pretty much saying "you cannot prove that God doesn't exist, if you can't then he exists"

You might have reasons to believe that God exists but because the existence of God cannot be disproven should not be one of them.

Do you believe is aliens, Santa, the tooth fairy? Why not? Prove me that they do not exist.
Firstly, God didn't "create" hell. It is a place he allows to exist apart from Him and His glory and love. We know it as hell and think of it as a place that was created when in reality like I said earlier it is only defined by what it lacks- God's glory.


I like how you conveniently deploy double standards here. I have to prove my belief, but you don't have to prove yours? In any case, I've been waiting for someone to ask. What follows is an excerpt from a paper I wrote concerning the issue:

"There are 4 possibilities for our existence: Self-creation, self-existence, illusion, and a Self-Existent Being. Self-creation is flawed in the sense that something can’t come from nothing. Nothing can’t produce something. Self-existence would require everything in this universe to be eternal, and we know that isn’t true. Nothing in this universe is eternal. It is a finite universe, with a beginning and an end of everything. Descartes once said, “I think therefore I am.” That throws a giant wrench in illusion, so we know it is false. Humans are self-aware. We know we are, and doubting that proves the fact that we do exist (when you doubt, that is a form of thinking)! The only other possible explanation is a Self-Existent Being. God is logically necessary for this universe to exist. Because God created and organized the world in which we live, the laws of science do not contradict the Bible. In fact, they are evidence that the Bible is true, reliable, and authoritative!!
Firstly, from the Second Law of Thermodynamics, we know that the universe is not infinitely old because it has not “run down” to a state of zero energy; therefore, the universe must have had a beginning. Because it had a beginning, the universe is not infinite in size because it would take an infinite amount of time to reach that size. From this, we know our universe is finite in both time and space. Moving forward, we know that all effects have causes. It is necessary that there is a single uncaused cause greater in size and duration than the universe it brought into existence. The uncaused cause must be separate from our universe and is not subject to the laws and limitations of our universe. By definition, supernatural is “of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural.” So the uncaused cause of our universe is supernatural. The Bible teaches that God is an uncaused cause whose existence is not an event, but a state. Tie all this together and it makes sense that the God of the Bible is the uncaused cause of our universe today!
The teleological argument for God’s existence is something I believe we should consider as well. This argument proves God’s existence from the fact that the universe is ordered and organized. The number of conceptually possible universes is infinite; however, we find ourselves in a one perfectly suited for life. Atheists have to put this “good fortune” down to chance (double standard- they never let Christians put anything to chance. First of all, they don’t have any standards to judge people by except for the standards they borrow from the Christian worldview. They borrow from the Christian worldview to fire shots at the Christian worldview!!) whereas Christians have a perfectly valid explanation: a created, organized world demands an organized creator who doesn’t have a beginning or an end. The anthropic principle is defined as, “the philosophical consideration that observations of the physical universe must be compatible with the conscious and sapient life that observes it.” A ridiculous number of things have to be perfect in order for life to exist. In other words, we are here. The universe must have been created in such a way that we can be here. Atheists cannot account for the fact that the universe is organized in such a way for life to exist. Evolution and the Big Bang involve random chance chaotic processes. By definition, no random chance chaotic process produces organization of any kind. We know that this universe is organized. Therefore, this organized universe perfectly suited for life demands an organized, uncaused creator.
In the same way that we proved that God not only exists, we can take it a step further. He can’t NOT exist! The only way to prove that God doesn’t exist is to prove that nothing exists at all, which is impossible. One would have to be everywhere at once at all points of space and time at once to prove God doesn’t exist. If God didn’t exist, nothing could exist at all. It is logically impossible for God not to exist."
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      05-29-2015, 11:02 AM   #18
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Thank you for your post sir, very informative.

It seems like you have taken God and Christianity and made it your own based on your interpretation. I believe that is what religion is about.

I have no issues with faith in God/Jesus/religion since I am an Atheist.

How do you reconcile the fact that God sent his son down to earth to save the human kind from himself?
First, I don't believe that God sent his son anywhere. I believe that God became man and walked among men. (That's not a distinction I would typically point out, but given the nature of your OP and the inquiries in it, it seems contextually relevant that I do so.)

I'm not aware that God became man to save men from Himself, God. As a result, I have nothing to reconcile.

All the best.
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      05-29-2015, 11:24 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
"There are 4 possibilities for our existence: Self-creation, self-existence, illusion, and a Self-Existent Being. Self-creation is flawed in the sense that something can’t come from nothing. Nothing can’t produce something. Self-existence would require everything in this universe to be eternal, and we know that isn’t true. Nothing in this universe is eternal. It is a finite universe, with a beginning and an end of everything. Descartes once said, “I think therefore I am.” That throws a giant wrench in illusion, so we know it is false. Humans are self-aware. We know we are, and doubting that proves the fact that we do exist (when you doubt, that is a form of thinking)! The only other possible explanation is a Self-Existent Being. God is logically necessary for this universe to exist. Because God created and organized the world in which we live, the laws of science do not contradict the Bible. In fact, they are evidence that the Bible is true, reliable, and authoritative!!
Firstly, from the Second Law of Thermodynamics, we know that the universe is not infinitely old because it has not “run down” to a state of zero energy; therefore, the universe must have had a beginning. Because it had a beginning, the universe is not infinite in size because it would take an infinite amount of time to reach that size. From this, we know our universe is finite in both time and space. Moving forward, we know that all effects have causes. It is necessary that there is a single uncaused cause greater in size and duration than the universe it brought into existence. The uncaused cause must be separate from our universe and is not subject to the laws and limitations of our universe. By definition, supernatural is “of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural.” So the uncaused cause of our universe is supernatural. The Bible teaches that God is an uncaused cause whose existence is not an event, but a state. Tie all this together and it makes sense that the God of the Bible is the uncaused cause of our universe today!
The teleological argument for God’s existence is something I believe we should consider as well. This argument proves God’s existence from the fact that the universe is ordered and organized. The number of conceptually possible universes is infinite; however, we find ourselves in a one perfectly suited for life. Atheists have to put this “good fortune” down to chance (double standard- they never let Christians put anything to chance. First of all, they don’t have any standards to judge people by except for the standards they borrow from the Christian worldview. They borrow from the Christian worldview to fire shots at the Christian worldview!!) whereas Christians have a perfectly valid explanation: a created, organized world demands an organized creator who doesn’t have a beginning or an end. The anthropic principle is defined as, “the philosophical consideration that observations of the physical universe must be compatible with the conscious and sapient life that observes it.” A ridiculous number of things have to be perfect in order for life to exist. In other words, we are here. The universe must have been created in such a way that we can be here. Atheists cannot account for the fact that the universe is organized in such a way for life to exist. Evolution and the Big Bang involve random chance chaotic processes. By definition, no random chance chaotic process produces organization of any kind. We know that this universe is organized. Therefore, this organized universe perfectly suited for life demands an organized, uncaused creator.
In the same way that we proved that God not only exists, we can take it a step further. He can’t NOT exist! The only way to prove that God doesn’t exist is to prove that nothing exists at all, which is impossible. One would have to be everywhere at once at all points of space and time at once to prove God doesn’t exist. If God didn’t exist, nothing could exist at all. It is logically impossible for God not to exist."
Who or what created God then?

If the universe itself is too complex and organized to have possibly come about from some spontaneous event, then the creator of said universe must be an order of magnitude more complex and organized than the universe he/she created, and thus is even less likely to have come into existance as a result of random, chaotic events.

If it is "logically impossible for God not to exist", then it must follow that it's also logically impossible for God to not have his/her own creator, and so on....

If God can exist without a creator of God, then certainly the universe can exist without a divine creator, as that is even less of a spectacular feat.

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      05-29-2015, 11:43 AM   #20
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Firstly, God didn't "create" hell. It is a place he allows to exist apart from Him and His glory and love. We know it as hell and think of it as a place that was created when in reality like I said earlier it is only defined by what it lacks- God's glory.


I like how you conveniently deploy double standards here. I have to prove my belief, but you don't have to prove yours? In any case, I've been waiting for someone to ask. What follows is an excerpt from a paper I wrote concerning the issue:

"There are 4 possibilities for our existence: Self-creation, self-existence, illusion, and a Self-Existent Being. Self-creation is flawed in the sense that something can’t come from nothing. Nothing can’t produce something. Self-existence would require everything in this universe to be eternal, and we know that isn’t true. Nothing in this universe is eternal. It is a finite universe, with a beginning and an end of everything. Descartes once said, “I think therefore I am.” That throws a giant wrench in illusion, so we know it is false. Humans are self-aware. We know we are, and doubting that proves the fact that we do exist (when you doubt, that is a form of thinking)! The only other possible explanation is a Self-Existent Being. God is logically necessary for this universe to exist. Because God created and organized the world in which we live, the laws of science do not contradict the Bible. In fact, they are evidence that the Bible is true, reliable, and authoritative!!
Firstly, from the Second Law of Thermodynamics, we know that the universe is not infinitely old because it has not “run down” to a state of zero energy; therefore, the universe must have had a beginning. Because it had a beginning, the universe is not infinite in size because it would take an infinite amount of time to reach that size. From this, we know our universe is finite in both time and space. Moving forward, we know that all effects have causes. It is necessary that there is a single uncaused cause greater in size and duration than the universe it brought into existence. The uncaused cause must be separate from our universe and is not subject to the laws and limitations of our universe. By definition, supernatural is “of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural.” So the uncaused cause of our universe is supernatural. The Bible teaches that God is an uncaused cause whose existence is not an event, but a state. Tie all this together and it makes sense that the God of the Bible is the uncaused cause of our universe today!
The teleological argument for God’s existence is something I believe we should consider as well. This argument proves God’s existence from the fact that the universe is ordered and organized. The number of conceptually possible universes is infinite; however, we find ourselves in a one perfectly suited for life. Atheists have to put this “good fortune” down to chance (double standard- they never let Christians put anything to chance. First of all, they don’t have any standards to judge people by except for the standards they borrow from the Christian worldview. They borrow from the Christian worldview to fire shots at the Christian worldview!!) whereas Christians have a perfectly valid explanation: a created, organized world demands an organized creator who doesn’t have a beginning or an end. The anthropic principle is defined as, “the philosophical consideration that observations of the physical universe must be compatible with the conscious and sapient life that observes it.” A ridiculous number of things have to be perfect in order for life to exist. In other words, we are here. The universe must have been created in such a way that we can be here. Atheists cannot account for the fact that the universe is organized in such a way for life to exist. Evolution and the Big Bang involve random chance chaotic processes. By definition, no random chance chaotic process produces organization of any kind. We know that this universe is organized. Therefore, this organized universe perfectly suited for life demands an organized, uncaused creator.
In the same way that we proved that God not only exists, we can take it a step further. He can’t NOT exist! The only way to prove that God doesn’t exist is to prove that nothing exists at all, which is impossible. One would have to be everywhere at once at all points of space and time at once to prove God doesn’t exist. If God didn’t exist, nothing could exist at all. It is logically impossible for God not to exist."
According to the Bible God created it all. If you don't believe God created hell then you are saying God is not the sole creator. Someone created hell then. Who did? The Devil or Lucifer? Wasn't he an Angel created by God who rebelled?

I think you are confusing possibility with probability. I don't have to prove my belief because I have none. Let me go back to my previous example... Do you belief in Santa, Tooth Fairy? You answer most likely is no/ Prove it.

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      05-29-2015, 12:12 PM   #21
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First, I don't believe that God sent his son anywhere. I believe that God became man and walked among men. (That's not a distinction I would typically point out, but given the nature of your OP and the inquiries in it, it seems contextually relevant that I do so.)

I'm not aware that God became man to save men from Himself, God. As a result, I have nothing to reconcile.

All the best.
Sir, your post confused me, and although I respect your POV it raises other questions. According to John 3:16 God loved the world so much that he sent his one and only son to be judged and to save the world.

I want to make clear that my post is in no way meant to be offensive or combative... Take it as challenging if you may.
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      05-29-2015, 01:35 PM   #22
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Who or what created God then?

If the universe itself is too complex and organized to have possibly come about from some spontaneous event, then the creator of said universe must be an order of magnitude more complex and organized than the universe he/she created, and thus is even less likely to have come into existance as a result of random, chaotic events.

If it is "logically impossible for God not to exist", then it must follow that it's also logically impossible for God to not have his/her own creator, and so on....

If God can exist without a creator of God, then certainly the universe can exist without a divine creator, as that is even less of a spectacular feat.

You obviously have problems with the law of causality and the law of noncontradiction. God wasn't created, he has no beginning and no end. We can't rationalize infinites like this because we live in a little 4 dimensional world, where time for us is linear. We can't go forward in time nor can we go backwards in time. (if you travel at close to the speed of light, your personal relative time frame slows down, we consider this time travel. All conceptual. See relativity)

God and our universe are very different. God is limitless, we have limits. To say that God not needing a creator leads to us not needing a creator is a false conclusion.
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