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      11-08-2007, 09:27 AM   #507
UncleWede
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If you go back and look thru my postings, repeatedly I tell you I can't quote the verse or chapter, most times not even the author. But I have key ideas that resonate in my heart, and tell me they are true.

I don't necessarily doubt that Hinduism is not a proper beleif system, I just personally BELEIVE (have FAITH) that for me path, this is the way to walk. More of my faith has come from human interaction and introspection than from reading the bible, because I can say I have never read the bible in its entirity.

Kind of reminds me to Schrodinger's cat (I think) and some other guy's theory: your observations, being too close, change the reality of what you are observing.

See, I don't even recall my science photograpically, but I know what I'm talking about

Chesire, excellent FAITH!

HK, yours goes without saying
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      11-08-2007, 11:15 AM   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
hahaha! how do you guarantee this? being learned by the heart doesn't protect from corruption!
I'm glad you see the topic as funny. Maybe I should laugh at the Bible and see how you feel? Nah I'm not on your level.

Also, I've shown miracles that prove it has been preserved. These claims arent just MINES, but non-muslims can even conclude to the fact that the oral and written translation PRESERVE the text. Why cant you understand that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
i see you're up to your usual shenanigans.
Really? you really must be a 2 faced then. One minute you send private messages praising me on my responses etc. and apologising for biting my head off, now you're doing it all over again.

And how are they shenanigans? leave it to the people of understanding to judge for themselves

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
these verses you quote are not enough to question the validity of the gospels . it doesn't fly in court, with law enforcement, with journalistic investigations... you're going to need MUCH MORE than this.
I've already went over what I posted in my last post in depth in the other thread and if Cheshirecat or anyone else wants to read what I said about it, they can be the judge themselves

What I find really suprising is that depite the number of attempts, noone has yet been able to explain why Jesus (AS) was heightened and in John's Gospel (the latest) we find statements that NOONE else has. How strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
2. regarding your later additions, i think most christians can concede that the translated texts are not the absolute inerrant texts that we claim is the Word of God. personally, i would only allow the word inerrant to describe the original text as i'm sure, through transposition, errors have been introduced. not only that, when translations are made, some words just can't be translated w/o interpretation of the spirit of the word.
It just shocks me that you keep saying this when I'm not talking about the translation, I'm talking about the ORIGINAL TEXT. The many many versions of the Bibles availible today cant even agree on what that ORIGINAL TEXT is. That's why you find chunks of the "original text" MISSING from some versions. No, they dont even translate it, they throw them out as fabrications...

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
you're lucky the quran is only in arabic, otherwise you'd be facing the same issues. would any translated passages from the quran survive your criticisms?
My criticisms? You really should hear what other people out there say. There are a LOT of people that agree with my criticisms as there as a LOT of people who dont believe it. You make it sound like it's just me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
anyway, back to "later additions". you haven't show me any "later addition" that cannot be supported by other pieces of scripture, either directly or through inference. whether it's in there or not, it doesn't change christian theology.
This is exactly my point. The "support" from "other pieces of scripture" could also be fabrications too, but I guess we'll never know since SO MANY manuscripts have been burnt, damaged and just plain lost. Also, that's assuming that the book as a whole wasnt ever intended to word of God falsely, we both know how the Bible was formed. It was formed by choosing word of MEN that portrayed God how they wanted it to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
here's the deal. you're methods to your objections to the bible are only ok because the only things that can stand up to your scrutiny is if it was all staged (like 4 accomplices to a murder getting together to make sure they got their story straight for the cops). and we really shouldn't trust EVERY translation of the bible without testing it first. but your blanket statement that the bible (not a particular version) is erroneous is baseless. your assertion won't even hold up to it's own weight.
I actually cant agree with that. The simple fact is that Jesus has made some really really shocking and striking statements that we only only find in John. How strange. We both know they are so striking because most Christians preach them. So why did Mark, Matthew & Luke not have them? You make it sound like it's something to do with the colour of someones hair that they have forgotten. It's actually really strong statements that testify to the trinity etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
and lastly, i'm not responding here for you. i'm here for the people of weak christian faith. you're planting seeds of doubt into their heads, you're misinterpreting the bible for them and you're putting it out of context. and i'm here to show them that you're wrong.
How lovely. As soon as someone wants to show you the true path they are automatically trying to "plant seeds of doubt". I take great offence to that. Maybe if I see you preaching one day and I said to you "stop puting doubt in that person's head" you would understand how stupid a statement that is.

We both know there are about 6 main religions in the world. That means that each of us have a 1 in 6 chance in being correct. Therefore how can we be 100% sure we are on the right path BEFORE seeing what else is out there? But I guess you're beyond that since you've already explicitly stated that you know you are right etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
the bible is still valid, and it is still God's Word. if you have questions, ask your God. ask your pastor.
I guess noone can beat circular logic. Let's analyse it. If you have questions go to people who will PROMOTE it, then you just get put back into the circular system that achieves nothing. To be fair and have more chance of finding the truth you have to look at ALL angles, not just what you like to hear or what reassures whatever beliefs you have stuck in your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
Psalm 3:5
Couldnt agree more. Did you know that much of Psalms we believe might be close to the original teachings of Jesus (AS)? That's because we find it in agreement with what our Holy Prophet (SAW) taught in his Hadeeths and what is revealed in the Quran.
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      11-08-2007, 11:24 AM   #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
If you go back and look thru my postings, repeatedly I tell you I can't quote the verse or chapter, most times not even the author. But I have key ideas that resonate in my heart, and tell me they are true.
It's the same for me too. I dont always remember the ref. for quote in the Quran, but I find out for you guys so you can check the context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
I don't necessarily doubt that Hinduism is not a proper beleif system, I just personally BELEIVE (have FAITH) that for me path, this is the way to walk. More of my faith has come from human interaction and introspection than from reading the bible, because I can say I have never read the bible in its entirity.
The point I was trying to make is that we both dont agree that there are elephant gods or any of the other gods that Hindu's believe in. We do respect it, but we dont believe in it. If you try teach a Hindu about the truth then how would you feel if the Hindu accused you of just placing doubt in his head? That's just absurd, you are clearly just trying to free his mind from sticking to his beliefs without analysing them.

I think its ray den's statement about going to a Pastor is just not objective at all. You really need to hear every angle. When I look at my own beliefs, I personally like to know how muslims, Christians and Athiests feel about them. The fact is that all 3 (and other people) will give a different perspective and then you can say to yourself "I have heard every possible view and I'm happy with my beliefs" or say "I'm not so sure I'm on the right path anymore".
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      11-08-2007, 11:28 AM   #510
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A man convinced against his will, is a man of the same mind still.
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      11-08-2007, 11:37 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by dlwhite View Post
A man convinced against his will, is a man of the same mind still.
I think that statement was a reply to what I said about freeing your mind from sticking to what you already believe and learning to analyse your beliefs? I think you made a great point there. I was of course making my statements PRESUMING that people do want to keep an open mind in the first place. An closed mind and cold heart will never learn and yes will be of the same mind deep down
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      11-08-2007, 04:20 PM   #512
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i laughed at your statement, not your quran. i don't show any disrespect to people's religion, but i will call you out when you make a statement that really doesn't make sense.
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      11-08-2007, 04:51 PM   #513
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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
i laughed at your statement, not your quran. i don't show any disrespect to people's religion, but i will call you out when you make a statement that really doesn't make sense.
Nice. When other people try to explain their faiths to you, you laugh? I dont exactly laugh at Christians when they cant prove that the trinity exists, and refer to it as a "mystery". Instead, I respect people's individual beliefs. Be nice, try it some time
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      11-08-2007, 07:27 PM   #514
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fine.. i'll be nice.

but i have already shown you proof of a triune God. i don't think you read it though...
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      11-08-2007, 08:29 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
fine.. i'll be nice.

but i have already shown you proof of a triune God. i don't think you read it though...
Bro I dont think anyone can. The reason is that we have nothing to base this on. Even Cheshirecat admitted that the original text has been corrupted. Therefore what do we base our faith on? because we both know if the corrupted text never existed there would be no Christianity as it is today. Everything revolves around the text, it is the sole cause of you being Christian.

That's why the Quran says:

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-"
(Quran 4:157-8)

Most of them follow naught but conjecture. Assuredly conjecture can by no means take place of truth. Lo! God is Aware of what they do. And this Quran is not such as could ever be invented in despite of God; but it is a confirmation of that which was before it and a full explanation of that which is decreed for mankind - t herein is no doubt from the Lord of the Worlds. Or they say: He has invented it? Say: Then bring a chapter like unto it, and call for help on all you can besides God, if you are truthful.
(Quran 10:37-39)
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      11-09-2007, 12:30 AM   #516
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hks 786,

Thats why its called faith...because there really is no basis for our beliefs other than what we feel in our hearts to be the right path to God's kingdom.

Although, the prophets (yours and mine) were special individuals because God himself chose them to carry his message, it still doesnt change the fact that they were still human and both of us can agree that man cant possibly fully comprehend God so why should we believe that they were free of error when interpreting God's message to the rest of us? Just like I cant say that everything that I know about God is the truth, neither can you and thats why I said you learn about God's nature by asking for him to be with you every second of your life and not by how other men interprets God's word. We all have to take little bits and pieces from various sources in order to form our opinions on what God wants from us. I dont solely use the bible, introspect, observation or others' interpretations to form my basis for believing but rather a combination of all of them.

I could ask you whether you feel every occurance in our lives is by chance or part of the destiny chose for us. You can answer that it happens by chance - I would respond by saying that if the majority of the 6 billion people on this earth believe in a higher being, than how can we attribute that to chance? If you answer that God chooses our destiny that why is it that he chose for mankind to have different belief systems and not one true belief? Either way everything comes back to man's inheret belief in a higher power and thats common ground that we can all stand on.
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      11-09-2007, 03:59 AM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Thats why its called faith...because there really is no basis for our beliefs other than what we feel in our hearts to be the right path to God's kingdom.
I really appreciate that because UncleWede said the same to me too But you are basing your beliefs on the Bible. The fact is that if the Bible didnt exist you wouldnt be a Christian.

What I have difficulty with is that if you can go as far as believing the "teachings" and "facts" recorded in the Bible as a holy scripture and reliable historical document, why cant you go EVEN further and analyse if this really is the word of God? Faith doesnt just have to be based on nothing.

You know, Yusuf Estes thought the same when he used to be a Priest and he was shocked to learn that Islam was based on proof. He is now one of the best Muslims on the planet IMO

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Although, the prophets (yours and mine) were special individuals because God himself chose them to carry his message, it still doesnt change the fact that they were still human and both of us can agree that man cant possibly fully comprehend God so why should we believe that they were free of error when interpreting God's message to the rest of us?
I'm not sure why you brought this up but I have no problem with this at all We both know that Prophet Adam (AS) was tricked by the devil. But OVERALL I'd say that the Prophets (AS) clearly have more wisdom than us because of their direct revelation from God.

Can you then not see why Jesus (AS) is only a prophet of Allah? he said CLEARLY that he does not know when the final hour is. "Of that hour noone knows, not the angels, nor the Son".How can Jesus (AS) be God if he doesnt know when the final hour is?

You know, I find it very interesting that the same thing is mentioned in the Quran. Allah says that NOONE knows when the final hour is apart from him. That pretty much confirms what Jesus (AS) said in the Bible! That's why we believe there are some truths in the Bible...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
Just like I cant say that everything that I know about God is the truth, neither can you and thats why I said you learn about God's nature by asking for him to be with you every second of your life and not by how other men interprets God's word
I think you are a man of understanding in some ways. I totally agree with this. However, we both must know that God tests us. Hindus might ask for God/s to be in there lives and they might feel their God/s within them. That doesnt mean that their Gods are real, these type of things are experienced by lots of people that claim miracles to all different Gods.

Friend, I encourage you to look at the language of the Quran. If you read it you can see this is no man talking to you, nor the interpretation of the word of God. This is God telling us the errors in our way. Frequently Allah asks us questions which we must think about. Look how sincerely he speaks to us:

"Do the unbelievers not realize that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?"
Qur'an (21:30)


He created seven universes in layers. You do not see any imperfection in the creation by the Most Gracious. Keep looking; do you see any flaw? Look again and again; your eyes will come back stumped and conquered.
Qur'an (67:34)


Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
We all have to take little bits and pieces from various sources in order to form our opinions on what God wants from us. I dont solely use the bible, introspect, observation or others' interpretations to form my basis for believing but rather a combination of all of them.
Aha, exactly my friend. We need a source to form what we believe about God. I'm just trying to show you that we need to be real careful about what our source is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat
I could ask you whether you feel every occurance in our lives is by chance or part of the destiny chose for us. You can answer that it happens by chance - I would respond by saying that if the majority of the 6 billion people on this earth believe in a higher being, than how can we attribute that to chance? If you answer that God chooses our destiny that why is it that he chose for mankind to have different belief systems and not one true belief? Either way everything comes back to man's inheret belief in a higher power and thats common ground that we can all stand on.
Aha. Very good points! I believe in destiny, that's one of the things about Islam. Allah says in the Quran that whatever he has ordained for you, you shall have it. Regarding the different beliefs, I'll explain. You see, Allah created us weak, and I know you'll agree because you believe Adam (AS) sinned. Allah says in the Quran "Man was created weak"...

Now to explain this. Allah tells us in the Quran that the Angels asked Allah why he is creating Adam (AS) that will sin when the Anges NEVER sin. Allah replied "I know what you dont know". I'll explain this wisdom. You see, the wisdom is that if we dont sin, how can Allah exercise his ability to forgive?

Also, another point I'll take from the Bible because I believe it to be true. Jesus (AS) says in the Bible that false prophets can perform miracles! This is clearly a test from God then. Miracles from false prophets dont prove anything. I can perform them too, but it doesnt mean I'm God. Clearly this is a test from Allah that we can be tricked just like Adam (AS) was tricked by the devil!

Another thing that people tend to ask me is "If there is a God why do bad things happen?". I would firstly respond by saying that how weak/evil we are. Look at most of the problems in the world. War, poverty & even Global warming are our OWN evils. We created them, not God. But that still doesnt prove why bad things happen to good people exactly. Here's what Allah says about it in the Quran:

"For sure Allah will test you with something of fear and hunger some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil) but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere."
Quran (2:155)
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      11-09-2007, 07:49 AM   #518
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question on this "Anges NEVER sin"..

islam doesn't have the concept of the devil, satan, a fallen angel?
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      11-09-2007, 08:02 AM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
question on this "Anges NEVER sin"..

islam doesn't have the concept of the devil, satan, a fallen angel?
Good question. No. Islam actually teaches us that Angels are made with perfect obedience. They follow Allah's command and never disobey. It's just the way they were made, hence why the Angels questioned Allah when he wanted to create a sinning creation. Allah replied "I know what you do not".

A lot of people tend to think the Devil (in Islam) was a fallen Angel so to speak. This is incorrect. We believe he is of another creation shielded from our eyes except when they choose to show themselves. They are called "Jinns" and are made from a smokeless fire...

What actually happened was that Iblis (satan) was a companion among the Angels in heaven because he was such a loyal servant to Allah. However, when Allah created Adam (AS) he asked the Angels to bow (not act of worship though) to Adam. Iblis refused and claimed that he was better than Adam (AS) because he is made of clay while Jinns are made from smokeless fire. Clearly an arrogant thing to do and Allah expelled him from Heaven.

Here's what the Quran says:

"Behold! We said to the Angels, 'Bow down to Adam': they bowed down except Iblis. He was One of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord..."
Quran (18:50)


Here's the Quran's exact account of what I just said above (length verse, hence why I put spaces between lines:

"It is We Who Created you and gave you shape; then We bade the Angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down.

(Allah) said: 'What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee? He said: 'I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay.

(Allah) said: 'Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures). He said: 'Give me respite till the day they are raised up.

(Allah) said: 'Be thou amongst those who have respite.' He said: 'Because thou hast thrown me out of the Way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy Straight Way: Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt Thou find, in most of them, gratitude (of Thy mercies).'

(Allah) said: 'Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee - Hell will I fill with you all."
Quran (11:18)
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      11-09-2007, 08:50 AM   #520
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so are jinns heavenly beings or earthly? if they were heavenly beings, what was their purpose?

why did God tell the angels to bow down to adam? if it wasn't worship, what was it for?
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      11-09-2007, 09:03 AM   #521
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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
so are jinns heavenly beings or earthly? if they were heavenly beings, what was their purpose?

why did God tell the angels to bow down to adam? if it wasn't worship, what was it for?
No no. They are earthly beings. In MANY parts of the Quran Allah tells us that Jinns will be judged for their actions on this earth too. They were created before us, but Iblis (now Satan) was raised to Heaven to be a companion among the angels.

Friend, noone can say for sure what Allah's intentions for this were. It could simply be just to show respect for Allah's new creation. Remember the Angels were uneasy about Adam (AS) being created? Also, this showed the angels who Iblis really was deep down (arrogant).

ALSO, on top of that again, look at the lesson it is for Adam (AS). Upon his creation he sees beautiful obedient Angels following his Lord but this creation of Jinn so arrogant. We need to remember that Allah has wisdom beyond our thinking. His thinking extend beyond where ours stops.
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      11-13-2007, 03:10 PM   #522
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If Allah is 1, why do I keep reading "WE" created this or did that? Sounds like you are back to the trinity
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      11-13-2007, 06:57 PM   #523
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Quote:
They were created before us, but Iblis (now Satan) was raised to Heaven to be a companion among the angels.
why did god do this? surely the reason would be recorded for something as significant as this (an earthly being being raised to the heavens).
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      11-14-2007, 01:46 AM   #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
If Allah is 1, why do I keep reading "WE" created this or did that? Sounds like you are back to the trinity
Aha, good question. It's plural because its in a honorific form. If you listen to the Queens speech's she will use terms like this. It's like that for all sematic languages. Also, look at the english language. We dont say "I is happy", we say "I am happy". You see what I'm saying? There is NOWHERE in the Quran that teaches of more than one God, these are just honorific forms

Here's an article that explains it better:

http://www.answering-christianity.co...ah_says_we.htm
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      11-14-2007, 01:53 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
why did god do this? surely the reason would be recorded for something as significant as this (an earthly being being raised to the heavens).
Of course it's important. I think if you read over my explanation you will see what the implications of that were from the Angels point of view and also through Adam (AS)'s eyes. Read it again bro, the significance isnt that an earthly being was raised to heaven, the significance is what I explained below

Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786
Friend, noone can say for sure what Allah's intentions for this were. It could simply be just to show respect for Allah's new creation. Remember the Angels were uneasy about Adam (AS) being created? Also, this showed the angels who Iblis really was deep down (arrogant).

ALSO, on top of that again, look at the lesson it is for Adam (AS). Upon his creation he sees beautiful obedient Angels following his Lord but this creation of Jinn so arrogant. We need to remember that Allah has wisdom beyond our thinking. His thinking extend beyond where ours stops.
Also, maybe you didnt know but the Holy Prophet (SAW) was brought up to heaven during his lifetime. This is too recorded in the Quran...
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      11-14-2007, 09:25 AM   #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
We dont say "I is happy", we say "I am happy". You see what I'm saying?
That is conjugation of a verb, implying the noun form is correct, not at all similar to which noun or nouns are being used, i.e. I vs. We.
So, there ARE "errors" of translation, and the quaran is subject to the same sorts of issues as the biblical translations. In American English, the use of the "Royal We" is seldom, if ever used. I work in government, and the only time We is used, is to imply plurality. So City Council resolutions include We because it is a 5 member council, and not just the mayor making the statement. When it IS a mayoral proclamation, it states I.

Who chose, in the English translations, when to use I vs. We? Could this be likened to your arguments that in earlier versions of the bible, Jesus was translated more human, yet later, to honor his rightful dignity, the term "Son of God" is utilized?
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      11-14-2007, 09:54 AM   #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
That is conjugation of a verb, implying the noun form is correct, not at all similar to which noun or nouns are being used, i.e. I vs. We.
So, there ARE "errors" of translation, and the quaran is subject to the same sorts of issues as the biblical translations.
Of course there are bound to be errors in translation of the Quran, but no I am sure with the belief that "we" is the honorific form Allah uses in the Quran He also uses 1st person (I) and 3rd person (He). This, admittedly, is more common in the sematic languages (arabic being one of them).

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
Who chose, in the English translations, when to use I vs. We? Could this be likened to your arguments that in earlier versions of the bible, Jesus was translated more human, yet later, to honor his rightful dignity, the term "Son of God" is utilized?
Firstly, the issue of "I vs. We" isnt really an arguement. You dont have to look further than the english language to see that there are features such as the Royal We. In Arabic the word "Nahnu" actually means "we", it isnt used as "I". But in some places Allah says "I", in others he says "We" (Royal We) and sometimes "He" (out of respect instead of saying "It"). Like the english language the sematic languages have the Royal We etc. so there is no confusion within that. Infact, Allah is always respectful when describing something as high as himself or even as sensitive as sexual intercourse. Look at the language of the Quran and you will see how poetic and repectfull it is.

To support this, nowhere in the Quran does Allah say there is more than one God. Read this chapter. This is what Allah tells the muslims to tell the unbelievers. Hence why it starts with "Say:"...

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
Quran: Surah Ikhlas


Now, to consider the part about Jesus in the Bible I would say it is completely different. The Gospels progressively change Jesus (AS) to a godly figure. We can see it in numerous ways:

- Look at the differences between the Gospels discussing the same events.
- Look at the HUGE numerical differences in teachings. At first we see more of Jesus (AS)'s teachings but then we see less of his and more of Paul's teachings.
- We are still having to change the Bible because we find earlier manuscripts that predate what we have. Sometimes whole verses have to be thrown out of the Bible. However, some manuscripts (the original text that Christitans refer to) have been burnt, lost or perished due to the material they were written on.
- John's Gospel comes many many years later after the other Gospels yet has recorded Jesus (AS) as giving such striking statements that seem to have got past Matthew, Mark & Luke. Where did these statements come from?

Edit:

Regarding "Son of God", that is such a wide term. Even me and you could be described as Sons of God if we follow his instructions But I do find it worrying that even in Mark 1:1 the NIV Bible tells us that someone inserted the title "Son of God" and they obviously removed it after discovering the fabrication.
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      11-18-2007, 09:08 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by LambOfGod View Post
Not believing is a Cop Out! It is too easy to believe that there is not a Creator. I do agree with you regarding the control and how religion has caused most of our problems throughout history. But we only have one person to blame....Satan.

The little person in me with the middle finger is my closet identity. You know...sort of like listening to heavy metal. It is a release of some sorts and a way to be pissy. Lamb of God is my favorite Metal Band.
1. A "person" is a human that can be identified
2. Satan is not a person
3. You have been indoctrinated
4. You accept things to be true without evidence

All of the above makes you delusional and ignorant. Common sense police will confiscate your car tomorrow. Good night and good luck.
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Last edited by M0011; 11-25-2007 at 05:29 PM..
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