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      10-27-2007, 11:34 AM   #485
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I don't think the bible says anything about religion as we define it today, but it does talk about worshiping as a community. My personal feeling is that religion has a hand in erecting walls between people rather than knocking them down and this goes against the basic message of the bible which is love god and each other unconditionally.
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      10-29-2007, 10:30 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by CheshireCat View Post
I don't think the bible says anything about religion as we define it today, but it does talk about worshiping as a community. My personal feeling is that religion has a hand in erecting walls between people rather than knocking them down and this goes against the basic message of the bible which is love god and each other unconditionally.
Then that part of the Bible is closer to the truth. We muslims are taught to be united with eachother and pray in gatherings. Regarding loving God, can I ask you something about that?

In Marks Gospel he records Jesus (AS) as saying:

“The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength"

Matthew records the exact same situation differently because he skips straight to the part about “love”. He doesn’t include oneness of God. Why is this?
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      10-30-2007, 02:48 PM   #487
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Here's a question that stumps me:

Why Do Christians celebrate Sabbath on Sundays? Especially when Christianity was an offspring from Judaism and Judeo/Muslims observe Saturdays?
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      10-30-2007, 03:05 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by MCS View Post
Here's a question that stumps me:

Why Do Christians celebrate Sabbath on Sundays? Especially when Christianity was an offspring from Judaism and Judeo/Muslims observe Saturdays?
Google is your friend. This interested me too, have you read up on it?
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      10-30-2007, 04:55 PM   #489
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Because on the seventh day, God rested.
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      10-30-2007, 05:27 PM   #490
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Because on the seventh day, God rested.
Yeah I've read about that part of the argument too. Bro how do you feel about that? Here's what the Quran says:

"Allah! There is no god but He - the Living, The Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him Nor Sleep..."
[Surah al-Baqarah 2: 255]
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      10-30-2007, 10:34 PM   #491
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Resting is different than slumber, it does not at all imply anything like unwatchfulness. Since He had just created everything, but I don't think Lucifer was a problematic part of the picture yet, there wasn't much for him to do except relax and enjoy His creative genius.
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      10-31-2007, 05:10 AM   #492
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Resting is different than slumber, it does not at all imply anything like unwatchfulness. Since He had just created everything, but I don't think Lucifer was a problematic part of the picture yet, there wasn't much for him to do except relax and enjoy His creative genius.
Resting still implies being refreshed. Such an action cant be attributed to God. I dont think it's such a coincidence that God is again brought down to the level of Man because the Bible teaches the impossibility of Jesus (AS) being both Man and God at the same time. The Bible tells us that Jesus "hungered" and "wept" and made his mother impure for 40 days after he was born etc. It even teaches that he died...

I think the Quran is amazing because it corrects all of these falsehoods. It corrects people from thinking that God rests. It also corrects us about Jesus (AS) not being the Son of God:

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.

I think this is one of the most beautiful chapters in the Quran. It's so small yet contains how you would explain God...
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      10-31-2007, 09:47 AM   #493
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If Allah begetteth not, where do we come from?

I have no problem with the part about Him not being begotten, although we are still stuck with the unsurmountable idea, at least to our human brains, of where He came from. But then, if we can't understand even His origin, how can we challenge that he might rest, or might beget a fantastically divine human son, or have to abide by some set of "rules" in terms of bringing us to his kingdom??? Ahhhh, back to the internal debate, and FAITH.
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      10-31-2007, 02:34 PM   #494
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
If Allah begetteth not, where do we come from?
It depends what you are using the word "begotten" as. The Quran is talking about the way we humans have children through the function of sex. We do not assign such an attribute to Allah, he has no children neither is he begotten from any parents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
I have no problem with the part about Him not being begotten, although we are still stuck with the unsurmountable idea, at least to our human brains, of where He came from. But then, if we can't understand even His origin, how can we challenge that he might rest, or might beget a fantastically divine human son, or have to abide by some set of "rules" in terms of bringing us to his kingdom??? Ahhhh, back to the internal debate, and FAITH.
As a Christian I'm sure you'll understand that God is infinite and has no beginning. This is something we muslims embrace too. Yes our human brains cant comprehend it, but we are finite beings. We clearly have a beginning unlike God. It is because of this we dont attribute "rest" or other functions of the sort to God. He does not eat, sleep or answer to the call of nature.

I dont really want to go too off-topic and discuss why it's imposssible for Jesus (AS) to be both man and God as we already discussed it, but regarding the thing you said about rules I would like to main a small point. You see, we muslims arent saying that God has to abide by rules and cannot become man or have a human son. It's not about rules. It's about nature...

For one to say that God is 3 persons in 1, they would have to prove this beyond reasonable doubt because God clearly says he is one. But within this there are also other great mysteries as to why God would have a human son etc. Is this within his nature? I think not. Of course some people have tried to explain it by saying God had to be put in human form to learn about his creation on this earthly level. This fails instantly because surely the Almighty would know what he created and wouldnt have to become his creation to understand it...

I must say friend, lets think out of the box. The Quran is basically saying that God is one. These arent mans words, these are God's own words. Allah is the "author" of the Quran if you like. He says:

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.


Look at the beauty and eloquence of these words. He is telling us to preach about his nature. I personally dont think their should be any difficulty in accepting that God is one and has no father or son. He neither eat, drinks or sleeps. How simple yet beautiful.
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      10-31-2007, 03:15 PM   #495
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So clear me up, is Islam a creationist, or evolutionary religion? What is the source of human kind?

DESPITE what I think my science tells me about evolution, my FAITH still tells me that God created humans, and all the plants and animals of the world. It's semantics to state whether he begot us or not then.
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      10-31-2007, 03:44 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
So clear me up, is Islam a creationist, or evolutionary religion? What is the source of human kind?

DESPITE what I think my science tells me about evolution, my FAITH still tells me that God created humans, and all the plants and animals of the world. It's semantics to state whether he begot us or not then.
We dont believe in the theory of evolution That's a huge debate on it's own. We believe that we all came from Adam and Eve (AS).

I'm not sure about semantics bro, could you tell me what you mean when you say Jesus (AS) was begotten not made, and where is the proof for this?
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      10-31-2007, 03:56 PM   #497
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And Eve came from Adam's rib ... Sounds so primitive that I can't help but conclude that the "creators" of both the bible and the koran truly came from monkeys as Mr. Darwin had explained.
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      10-31-2007, 04:19 PM   #498
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Explain to me where Adam and Eve came from,, it seems we share a quandry.
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      10-31-2007, 04:26 PM   #499
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And Eve came from Adam's rib ... Sounds so primitive that I can't help but conclude that the "creators" of both the bible and the koran truly came from monkeys as Mr. Darwin had explained.
urm...okay.

Maybe you should think of it like this. What place would you rather her to be made from? his feet? his genitals? she was created from the very place that protects his heart and the lungs that keep him breathing.

Also, for the woman (rib) to protect the man (heart), the woman (rib) must be looked after first. That's why in the same hadith the Holy Prophet (SAW) said: "Therefore, treat women kindly."
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      10-31-2007, 04:29 PM   #500
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Again, semantics, and I can't even get close to the original wording to know for sure.

We as humans are God's creation, created in his image. Jesus is His only begotten Son, a slight distinction that makes all the difference in the worl in terms of sin and redemption for those of us who beleive.
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      10-31-2007, 04:39 PM   #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Again, semantics, and I can't even get close to the original wording to know for sure.

We as humans are God's creation, created in his image. Jesus is His only begotten Son, a slight distinction that makes all the difference in the worl in terms of sin and redemption for those of us who beleive.
What do you mean that Jesus (AS) is "begotten not made" though? I see that you believe in this, but what do you actually take the meaning to be?

Oh yeah and since you believe in the rib thing too, what did you think of my explanation?
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      11-07-2007, 07:33 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Then that part of the Bible is closer to the truth. We muslims are taught to be united with eachother and pray in gatherings. Regarding loving God, can I ask you something about that?

In Marks Gospel he records Jesus (AS) as saying:

“The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength"

Matthew records the exact same situation differently because he skips straight to the part about “love”. He doesn’t include oneness of God. Why is this?
I dont know why that is. What are your thoughts on it?
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      11-07-2007, 08:44 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by CheshireCat View Post
I dont know why that is. What are your thoughts on it?
Well, not to offend you, but here are the simple facts. We have Gospels that are written much after Jesus (AS)'s lifetime and even huge time gaps between them. I mean, John's Gospel was written about 70 years after the crucifiction. But what's more startling is the sayings he has Jesus recorded as saying. We only find them in his Gospel. How peculiar, yet it is these statements that people mostly remember. Why didnt Mark, Matthew and Luke remember them?

Here's a few of them:

“I and the Father are one”, “Whoever has seen me has seen the father”, “For God so loved the world he gave the world his only begotten son.” “I am the way, the truth and the light, no man cometh unto the father but by me”. Etc…

A quick note I would make at this point is that the verse in bold is John 3:16 and 32 scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 cooperationg denominations threw this verse out the Bible as it was found to be a fabrication. I would now ask at this point, is it such a coincidence that this verse has been thrown from the Bible and just happens to be recorded only in John's Gospel?

To fully answer your question, I would go into depth about how the Gospel writers describe the SAME events differently. I wont go into depth but you can judge it for yourself and see how Jesus (AS) is continually heightened to be a Godly figure which he really isnt. Look friend:

Mark: Peter said “Rabbi it is good for us to be here”
Matthew: “Rabbi” is replaced with “Lord”

Mark: “…don’t know when the master of the house is coming”
Matthew: “master” is replaced with “Lord”

Mark: Peter said “You are the Messiah”
Matthew: “You are the Messiah, son of the living God

Mark: Jesus said “whoever does the will of God is my brother, sister and mother”
Matthew: “God” is replaced with “my father in heaven”

Mark: “Teacher, you do not care that we are perishing?”
Matthew: “Lord, save us, we are perishing! (they instead pray to Jesus)

Mark: “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.
Matthew: skips straight to part about “love”. He doesn’t include oneness of God.

Mark: In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
Matthew: When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

Mark: Jesus cured many
Matthew: Jesus cured all

Mark: Jesus healed many
Matthew: Jesus healed all

Mark: Why do you call me good? Noone is good but God alone
Matthew: Why do you ask me about what is good?

Here's some of the verses that have been thrown out of the Bible:

Mark (1:1): NIV Bible tells us in footnote that title “Son of God” was inserted later.

Acts: (8:37): NIV Bible removed the words again because “Son of God” was inserted later.

1 John (5:7,8): Only verse in whole of Bible that deals with the trinity. It has been removed because it is later insertion.

I Timothy (3:16): used to say “God” but we now know it is a forgery and has been corrected back to “he”

John (7:53-8:11): again, later additions.

Mark (16:9-20): The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have these verses.

John (3:16): RSV Bible removes this verse as a later insertion. I'm sure you all know that this verse is "For God so loved the world that he gave the world his only begotten son..."

We also see a reduction of Jesus (AS)'s true teachings and and increase in Paul's teachings as we go through the Bible:

If we look at Mark, Jesus (AS) refers to God as “The Father” only once. John has it recorded as 73 times. Mark records Jesus as calling God his own father only 3 times. John has it at a scary 100 times. This promotes the trinity and Son-Father relationship coincidently. Mark has Jesus talking about “the Kingdom of God” (which is in the Lord’s prayer) 18 times, but John only has it as 5. We see a reversal or what we seen before and a reduction in Jesus’ original teachings. Mark has Jesus (AS) referring to himself “I am this, I am that” only 9 times. John has it as 118 times. I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this…
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      11-07-2007, 11:01 PM   #504
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So, you feel that God's purpose is to deceive us in what we believe? You think that God will make himself and his word so complicated to understand that we cant possibly lead a life worthy of his blessing?

My point is that you are reading too much into what the bible says. The bible has been manipulated and changed over the course of a couple thousand years so of course there will be discrepencies but I dont feel that is reason enough for me to stop having faith.

To me God is not something that you read about in a paperback book called the bible, qur'an, tora, etc. it is something that you feel in your soul, it is something that you believe to be true no matter how much doubt people want to instill in you. If at times I doubt the interpretations of God's word by my religious "elders" then I ask God to give me guidance in what to believe and what not to believe and I go from there.
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      11-08-2007, 04:10 AM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheshireCat View Post
So, you feel that God's purpose is to deceive us in what we believe? You think that God will make himself and his word so complicated to understand that we cant possibly lead a life worthy of his blessing?

My point is that you are reading too much into what the bible says. The bible has been manipulated and changed over the course of a couple thousand years so of course there will be discrepencies but I dont feel that is reason enough for me to stop having faith.

To me God is not something that you read about in a paperback book called the bible, qur'an, tora, etc. it is something that you feel in your soul, it is something that you believe to be true no matter how much doubt people want to instill in you. If at times I doubt the interpretations of God's word by my religious "elders" then I ask God to give me guidance in what to believe and what not to believe and I go from there.

You have made quite a few points there friend. I appreciate what you have said about the Bible being corrupted over time, and I thank you for being able to see this. But then I must ask, what is your faith based on? because if you didnt read these fabrications in the bible, your faith would not be what it is today. Moreover, can we imagine how many more fabrications exist undetected because we dont have older manuscripts to pre-date what we already have? That means really we have no idea what is truth and falsehood within the text.

I kinda agree that God isnt something you read about in a book, but we dont believe that the Quran was a book, it was the word of God revealed to our Holy Prophet (SAW). We also believe that Jesus (AS) preached the Gospel and message of God. However, like you said, it has been corrupted over time and we have no idea what is truth or falsehood.

Obviously the Quran has then been put in book form but ONLY as a material way of protecting it. We have also learned it by heart to prevent it from being corrupted. However, the Quran is a word that isnt tangible, yes we have great love for the book but only because of the WORDS it contains.

I also appreciate your strong faith. I love that. However, can we all say that people are just out to put doubt in our faiths? I dont think it's that simple. Me and you both wont accept Hinduism to be the true path and if we explained this to a Hindu it would never be to simply destroy his faith, but rather to show the true path to him.

Take my words as such. Half of my family are christians and I respect that very much, even my mother used to be Christian. But she seen things like I've been pointing out and she realised that she wasnt on the true path. It was never about people just out to destroy her faith
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      11-08-2007, 08:33 AM   #506
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We have also learned it by heart to prevent it from being corrupted.
hahaha! how do you guarantee this? being learned by the heart doesn't protect from corruption!

i see you're up to your usual shenanigans.

1. the 4 gospel accounts do not have to say EXACTLY the same thing. as long as they don't contradict each other, then there's no reason to doubt the accounts.

Quote:
Mark: Peter said “Rabbi it is good for us to be here”
Matthew: “Rabbi” is replaced with “Lord”

Mark: “…don’t know when the master of the house is coming”
Matthew: “master” is replaced with “Lord”

Mark: Peter said “You are the Messiah”
Matthew: “You are the Messiah, son of the living God

Mark: Jesus said “whoever does the will of God is my brother, sister and mother”
Matthew: “God” is replaced with “my father in heaven”

Mark: “Teacher, you do not care that we are perishing?”
Matthew: “Lord, save us, we are perishing! (they instead pray to Jesus)

Mark: “The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.
Matthew: skips straight to part about “love”. He doesn’t include oneness of God.

Mark: In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
Matthew: When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

Mark: Jesus cured many
Matthew: Jesus cured all

Mark: Jesus healed many
Matthew: Jesus healed all

Mark: Why do you call me good? Noone is good but God alone
Matthew: Why do you ask me about what is good?
these verses you quote are not enough to question the validity of the gospels . it doesn't fly in court, with law enforcement, with journalistic investigations... you're going to need MUCH MORE than this.

2. regarding your later additions, i think most christians can concede that the translated texts are not the absolute inerrant texts that we claim is the Word of God. personally, i would only allow the word inerrant to describe the original text as i'm sure, through transposition, errors have been introduced. not only that, when translations are made, some words just can't be translated w/o interpretation of the spirit of the word.

for example, i just learned from my ukrainian friend that they can't properly translated "facing the giants" into russian. a decent translation would come out to be something like, "to encounter and not run away from the giants". you can see the kinds of problems we'd face when we translate anything.

you're lucky the quran is only in arabic, otherwise you'd be facing the same issues. would any translated passages from the quran survive your criticisms?

anyway, back to "later additions". you haven't show me any "later addition" that cannot be supported by other pieces of scripture, either directly or through inference. whether it's in there or not, it doesn't change christian theology.

i know you have a problem with inferences, but if i said the sky is like the ocean, it's just as good as saying the sky is blue (even if the ocean in your part of the world is green or brown). don't you agree?

3. regarding corrections in non-original texts, well, why would you expect human transposers and translators to be inerrant? i don't, so i welcome any corrections that can be made to the bible that i read. if it makes it clearer and the ideas more accurate, then my knowledge and faith is in a better place.

here's the deal. you're methods to your objections to the bible are only ok because the only things that can stand up to your scrutiny is if it was all staged (like 4 accomplices to a murder getting together to make sure they got their story straight for the cops). and we really shouldn't trust EVERY translation of the bible without testing it first. but your blanket statement that the bible (not a particular version) is erroneous is baseless. your assertion won't even hold up to it's own weight.

and lastly, i'm not responding here for you. i'm here for the people of weak christian faith. you're planting seeds of doubt into their heads, you're misinterpreting the bible for them and you're putting it out of context. and i'm here to show them that you're wrong.

the bible is still valid, and it is still God's Word. if you have questions, ask your God. ask your pastor.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
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