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      10-19-2021, 09:12 AM   #4577
Littlebear
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
Seriously? You don't see any contradiction in your two bolded statements? The first one where you say that everything I said about the vaccine was wrong WHICH I THEN SUPPORTED WITH SOURCES, and then your second bolded statement WHERE YOU THEN SAY I'M RIGHT, despite saying I'm wrong immediately before?

You don't see that? Or are you again just trying to obfuscate the facts in any situation where you are proven to be wrong or where the facts do not support the narrative you'd like to push?

Sedan_Clan - I gotta say, initially I was sort of thinking Littlebear responses were made purposefully out of malice or ill intent, but now...based on his most recent exchanges, I'm thinking Hanlon's razor adequately explains Littlebear's responses now.
Joekerr, your two posts are in opposition to each other. In your second post the CMA says vaccines lessen symptoms & spread, but your first post says there is no difference.

"Fully vaccinated people are at a lower risk of becoming infected than unvaccinated people, but it can occasionally happen. This is called a breakthrough infection. If you do get a breakthrough infection, though, you are much less likely than an unvaccinated person to get sick enough to need to go to the hospital. This is because the vaccine helps your body to recognize the virus and develop antibodies to fight it."

We've been through this!!
(& then you wonder why I show little patience with you....)

Last edited by Littlebear; 10-19-2021 at 09:47 AM..
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      10-19-2021, 10:09 AM   #4578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
Joekerr, your two posts are in opposition to each other. In your second post the CMA says vaccines lessen symptoms & spread, but your first post says there is no difference.

"Fully vaccinated people are at a lower risk of becoming infected than unvaccinated people, but it can occasionally happen. This is called a breakthrough infection. If you do get a breakthrough infection, though, you are much less likely than an unvaccinated person to get sick enough to need to go to the hospital. This is because the vaccine helps your body to recognize the virus and develop antibodies to fight it."

We've been through this!!
(& then you wonder why I show little patience with you....)
No, my first post said that vaccinated people can still contract and spread COVID and the vaccine does not prevent this from happening.

I never said the vaccine didn't make a difference, of course it does, it is supposed to lessen the symptoms such that you don't need to be hospitalized.

But if we both agree then (even though you said I was wrong) that you can contract and spread covid while vaccinated, then my point was - what greater harm is an unvaccinated first responder doing to another human over a vaccinated first responder, if both can spread covid.

Perhaps the vaccinated one (if either contracted covid at all in the first place which is an IF, not a guarantee) would have a shorter time that they were spreading, but still spreading just the same. And frankly, those times could even be similar, I don't know, because perhaps by the time the vaccinated one is finished spreading, that might coincide with the onset of symptoms in the unvaccinated one where they would quarantine anyways. Who knows.

And that is sort of the point - not enough is known about either the virus, or the vaccine, nor the long term effects of either. So perhaps you could be a little more lenient when it comes to people's right to choose whether to get the vaccine or not. Since I see very little argument for the fact that they are causing greater harm than the vaccinated person.

But go ahead, change my mind. Show me the significantly greater harm.
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      10-19-2021, 10:10 AM   #4579
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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
Trying to get back on topic, I ASSume that firing a taser from a moving police car at a moving motorcyclist is not proper procedure?????


https://midhudsonnews.com/2021/10/18...ng-police-car/
Wow! I mean……motorcyclists can be a pain, especially when they run (…and they almost always do, even though the results are often perilous), but I wouldn't even waste a taser cartridge on them. That's definitely some out-of-policy thinking right there.
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      10-19-2021, 11:08 AM   #4580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
....
Perhaps the vaccinated one (if either contracted covid at all in the first place which is an IF, not a guarantee) would have a shorter time that they were spreading, but still spreading just the same....

But go ahead, change my mind. Show me the significantly greater harm.
^^ this ^^

But not the same... much of the virus shed from a vaccinated person is less virulent than the shed from an unvaccinated person.

You can look this up on the innernet, or maybe in the past vaccine threads we have had here.
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      10-19-2021, 11:13 AM   #4581
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I'd like to see this info so please show us. I have always heard not that the virus is less virulent but that vaccinated people simply shed less of the virus.
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      10-19-2021, 11:20 AM   #4582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscarrol View Post
I'd like to see this info so please show us. I have always heard not that the virus is less virulent but that vaccinated people simply shed less of the virus.
I think we are saying the same thing. Vaccinated people generally shed less active virus, but they will shed inactive virus also, which by some measures increases the total shed #s.

ks, I respect your question but have to go out now....
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      10-19-2021, 11:21 AM   #4583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
^^ this ^^

But not the same... much of the virus shed from a vaccinated person is less virulent than the shed from an unvaccinated person.

You can look this up on the innernet, or maybe in the past vaccine threads we have had here.
Not going to do your work for you. You make the claim, you substantiate it. Just like I did. Otherwise, just words.
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      10-19-2021, 11:28 AM   #4584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
Not going to do your work for you. You make the claim, you substantiate it. Just like I did. Otherwise, just words.
Bye bye!
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      10-19-2021, 11:46 AM   #4585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
I think we are saying the same thing. Vaccinated people generally shed less active virus, but they will shed inactive virus also, which by some measures increases the total shed #s.

ks, I respect your question but have to go out now....
No problem, but please look up the definition of virulent. Perhaps the word you are looking for is contagious...
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      10-19-2021, 01:04 PM   #4586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscarrol View Post
I'd like to see this info so please show us. I have always heard not that the virus is less virulent but that vaccinated people simply shed less of the virus.
I hope this clears things up a little:

"In England, people who became infected despite being vaccinated with either the Pfizer or AstraZeneca vaccines (known as a breakthrough infection), were only half as likely to pass their infection on to household contacts compared to infected people who were not vaccinated.

In Israel, people who had a breakthrough infection after the Pfizer vaccine had less virus cultured from their nose than people who had not been vaccinated."
https://theconversation.com/can-vira...-big-no-162940

" The durations of both infectious virus shedding and symptoms were significantly reduced in vaccinated individuals compared with unvaccinated individuals. We also observed that breakthrough infections are associated with strong tissue compartmentalization and are only detectable in saliva in some cases. These data indicate that vaccination shortens the duration of time of high transmission potential, minimizes symptom duration, and may restrict tissue dissemination."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34494028/

"While many have interpreted this result as indicating that vaccinated people who become infected with the Delta variant are just as infectious as unvaccinated people who are infected, Ferullo and others urge caution. “It’s important to remember that the PCR test detects viral RNA, not infectious virus. Detectable viral RNA doesn’t necessarily correlate with infectiousness.... But it’s possible that two individuals could carry the same amount of detectable viral RNA in their nostrils, even if one of them is much less infectious.
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-upd...ugh-infections

Going especially from the MIT link, I think vaccinated people can be less contagious to others, and shed a less virulent, less healthy, virus than the unvaccinated.

Last edited by Littlebear; 10-19-2021 at 01:09 PM..
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      10-19-2021, 01:15 PM   #4587
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Interesting statistic.

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 03-14-2022 at 02:19 PM..
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      10-19-2021, 01:25 PM   #4588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Littlebear View Post
https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-upd...ugh-infections

Going especially from the MIT link, I think vaccinated people can be less contagious to others, and shed a less virulent, less healthy, virus than the unvaccinated.
Read the MIT link, nothing said about the virus that vaccinated folks shed being less virulent. They are less contagious because they shed less virus than unvaccinated and for a shorter period but nothing about a less virulent virus. Maybe I missed it...
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      10-19-2021, 01:26 PM   #4589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Interesting statistic.
That's an inevitability, as at some point the number of unvaccinated will be approaching 0%, and the number of vaccinated will be approaching 100%.
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      10-19-2021, 01:27 PM   #4590
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As of yesterday in MA, 36% of those in hospital with covid are fully vaccinated. Been tracking this # since they started reporting it, and it has trickled upwards.
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      10-19-2021, 01:55 PM   #4591
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmatre View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Interesting statistic.
That's an inevitability, as at some point the number of unvaccinated will be approaching 0%, and the number of vaccinated will be approaching 100%.
It will never be 100% or near that……


…..not without threatening everybody and the government being willing to uproot countless lives in order to obtain compliance. You'll get civil war long before that happens.
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      10-19-2021, 02:23 PM   #4592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6oclockshadow View Post
As of yesterday in MA, 36% of those in hospital with covid are fully vaccinated. Been tracking this # since they started reporting it, and it has trickled upwards.
As more people get vaccinated, the percent of people getting infected who were vaccinated goes up, all things being equal.
Simple statistics.
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      10-19-2021, 02:48 PM   #4593
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Related, in SanFran, ~75 officers were placed on PAID admin leave, since they failed to comply with the vax mandate. Listed as significantly less than anticipated, but the anticipated number was around 125.

I'm guessing the number of officers in SanFran would be in the 1000's???
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      10-19-2021, 02:51 PM   #4594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscarrol View Post
Read the MIT link, nothing said about the virus that vaccinated folks shed being less virulent. They are less contagious because they shed less virus than unvaccinated and for a shorter period but nothing about a less virulent virus. Maybe I missed it...
So, if being less contagious & contagious for a shorter time aren't enough, we have this:

"Researchers from the Netherlands took it a step further and looked at respiratory samples taken from vaccinated people with breakthrough infections and found that the virus in their noses was less likely to be infectious compared to unvaccinated people who got COVID. Still, infectious virus was detected in 68% of the vaccinated participants (compared with 85% of unvaccinated participants). "
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/break...b0487c855a2463

Are we there yet?
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      10-19-2021, 02:52 PM   #4595
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Related, in SanFran, ~75 officers were placed on PAID admin leave, since they failed to comply with the vax mandate. Listed as significantly less than anticipated, but the anticipated number was around 125.

I'm guessing the number of officers in SanFran would be in the 1000's???
Which department was that? Depending on the size of the department, 75 could be a lot….


…..like in a situation where the department has 200-300 officers. That same number on my department would be insignificant. We have thousands not complying.
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      10-19-2021, 02:53 PM   #4596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Which department was that? Depending on the size of the department, 75 could be a lot….


…..like in a situation where the department has 200-300 officers.
SanFran, Cisco
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      10-19-2021, 02:56 PM   #4597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Which department was that? Depending on the size of the department, 75 could be a lot….


…..like in a situation where the department has 200-300 officers.
SanFran, Cisco
Okay?!?! My question still stands. Are we talking SFPD, UC San Francisco PD……? Are you talking one of the many SFPD stations? Mentioning SF is like mentioning LA. I'm looking for specificity.
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      10-19-2021, 02:59 PM   #4598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Okay?!?! My question still stands. Are we talking SFPD, UC San Francisco PD……? Are you talking one of the many SFPD stations? Mentioning SF is like mentioning LA. I'm looking for specificity.
"San Francisco has placed 76 of its police officers on paid administrative leave for failing to get the COVID-19 vaccine. That number is much lower than was expected." That's all I got.
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