Firearms

[Thxrick]

I didn't see a firearms section but I thought I would start this thread.

I have no hobbies except cars. Golf isn't my thing, tennis...done with it. Guns? Yes! I'm down.

I drive by a range/shop 2x per day (to and fro work) and decided to take a class and see whats up. I have been exposed to gun most of my life: some rifles, shotguns and pistols but never owned one.

So here I am...after the class: 3hours: 2 safety and 1 shooting, I love it!

Anyone else into it? My first gun is a Glock 19, 9mm. It's very cliche to buy a Glock but I fired a lot of guns at the class and it just "felt" great...I had to have it.

Any one else into it?

[1MOREMOD]

Yes love it, stockpile in effect

[Thxrick]

Been buying ammo (9mm)...shit's expensive. 1k rounds in bulk are 212 delivered.
Better than at the range, though.

[Fundguy1]

Ruger LCP .380 with green laser
Sig Sauer P229 .40
Colt 1911 .45 1918 Black army edition
Ruger 10/22
M1 Carbine 1942 manufacture
K98 Mauser 1935 manufacture with swastikas
Arsenal AK47
Rock River AR15 with accessories
M1 Garand 1942 manufacture
M1 Garand 1943 manufacture retooled for Korean War
Mossberg 590 pump 12 gauge 9 round with 4 extra in the stock
Carry permit for 12 yrs

[larrysing]

Firearms = weapons
Fire Arms = a muthereffer's guns are on fire.

(Sorry, Journalism Major here)

[1MOREMOD]

Just picked up arsenal ak47 today actually

[Mr Tonka]

In!

And yes.

[Thxrick]

Originally Posted by larrysing

Firearms = weapons
Fire Arms = a muthereffer's guns are on fire.

(Sorry, Journalism Major here)

I'm a math and finance guy. Things that matter and make me money your proper, obscure gammas doesn't.

[Thxrick]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Ruger LCP .380 with green laser
Sig Sauer P229 .40
Colt 1911 .45 1918 Black army edition
Ruger 10/22
M1 Carbine 1942 manufacture
K98 Mauser 1935 manufacture with swastikas
Arsenal AK47
Rock River AR15 with accessories
M1 Garand 1942 manufacture
M1 Garand 1943 manufacture retooled for Korean War
Mossberg 590 pump 12 gauge 9 round with 4 extra in the stock
Carry permit for 12 yrs

I expected nothing less , Fundguy.

[Thxrick]

Im getting my CCW. Don't plan to carry but who knows?

So I went to my local gun dealer/range and tried out several other 9mm pistols despite just purchasing my Glock. Tried the Sig P226 MK5. Done! Bought it on site....just sick. Sig makes a great pistol and this thing made me "need" to own it. I could have bought 2 for the price of this....picking it up on Tues....awesome firearm (for you Larrysing)!!!

[Fundguy1]

9mm is good but 40 is mbetter for stopping power. Hollow tips all day unless at the range. The 380 is smaller than my wallet and weighs less than a soda can. Good for carry in front pocket. Laser turns on automatically when its removed from the holster. Depending on what im wearing its the 380 or 40 for carry. Shotgun for home defense. Rest are for fun, collecting, or range duty.

[PINeely]

Lots of gun guys around here. We had a subforum once but one user in particular pitched a fit and got it removed (and then was banned a few weeks later).

[Nkc]

You should post some gun pics. We love that here.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

9mm is good but 40 is mbetter for stopping power. Hollow tips all day unless at the range. The 380 is smaller than my wallet and weighs less than a soda can. Good for carry in front pocket. Laser turns on automatically when its removed from the holster. Depending on what im wearing its the 380 or 40 for carry. Shotgun for home defense. Rest are for fun, collecting, or range duty.

This is largely false. Well, not so much as false, but rather just as true as saying 9mm has more stopping power as .40 cal.

Stopping power comes from your familiarity and proficiency in using your firearm. A well placed shot from a .38 will have more stopping power than a .45acp hitting a non-vital part of the body.

Today's bullet tech has moved the 9mm back to the forefront in regards to choosing a tactical and defense caliber. The 9mm platform offers too many advantages for the .40cal to overcome. 9MM and .40 ballistics are near identical. Penetration tests show it to be on par and in some comparisons better than .40cal. You can carry more rounds in 9mm over .40cal. 9mm is generally a more manageable round. More manageable rounds are easier to keep on target. Staying on target = more stopping power. Plus it's less expensive to shoot, less wear and tear on the firearm and abundantly available. More ammo choices, etc. etc.. etc...

There is a reason nearly all LE agencies are moving back to 9mm.

[1MOREMOD]

What he said

[Fundguy1]

I disagree. The 40 has the same force as a 357 magnum. Police agencies have been widely adopting it. The original 45 was developed because at the turn of the 20th century our forces faced Polynesians with .38 specials. More powerful than 9mm. They would shoot the natives only to have them continue on to run them through with spears. The 45 was an instant man stopper. Dropped them instantly. If youre hit with a 45 anywhere besides below the elbow, you will drop and be out of commission instantly 98% of the time. 9mm would require double taps to produce the same effect. Yes, 9mm is lethal. Actually. 22 kills more people than any other round. But they don't have the instant stopping force of the larger caliber ammo. I carry the .380 a lot. Less power than 9mm but same size bullet. Hollow tips. If i need to ever use it which i hope is never, it will be a double tap.

[Fundguy1]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/14/co...nd-the-45-acp/
Theres a reason navy seals chuck their 9mm every time and get 45s. The mark 23 socom being a weapon of choice for a couple decades until smaller 45s were mostly adopted. Most of the articles that say theres little difference between 9mm and 40 and 45 only look at full metal jacket and not hollow point. Thats also a vast difference.

[Aatish]

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[Mr Tonka]

^^ that's a nice opinion piece and graphic.

Ballistic traits vary between caliber and within bullet manufacturer/design. There are many 9mm rounds that perform as well or better than .40cal and .45cal in terms of penetration and cavity damage. And in every other tangible aspect, (round capacity, shoot ability, accuracy, weight, price, wear and tear, etc..) the 9mm out performs each of them.

Weapon effectiveness isn't based solely on caliber size. If all anyone was concerned about was stopping power, everyone would carry around a 20" 12ga with rifled slugs. But everyone who carries a hand gun for self defense weighs all the other factors that go along with it.

Nearly every non-professional shooter will be more accurate with a 9mm over .40. Nearly every person with any shooting experience will be able to follow up more quickly and accurately with multiple shots with a 9mm over .40. This is far more important than the very small differences in ballistics between some .40cal and 9mm rounds. A .40cal round isn't going to explode a heart any worse than a 9mm round will. Which round has more stopping power is an unanswerable question unless there is a specific scenario to go along with it. Even then, people have shot themselves in the head with .45acp in suicide attempt and lived to tell about it. On the flip side people have done the same with a .22 and didn't.

...a handgun can quickly and definitively stop a determined attacker only if two conditions are met:

1. The gun must be fired at a so-called “vital area” of the attacker. This usually means the heart or the brain/spine. Hits to the lungs and other organs can also be effective, but results may be slower.

2. The bullet must have the ability to penetrate whatever is between the muzzle and those vital organs in order to disrupt their function — for non-uniformed civilians, this typically includes clothing, tissue, and bone.

That’s it. No matter what else may happen during the course of a lethal confrontation, if you shoot the guy in the right spot with a bullet that penetrates deep enough, the threat will go down.

With the bolded portion in mind, take a look at one of the most through ballistics test ever performed. (linked below) Specifically paying attention at the reliable penetration of the 9mm rounds tested. Not only were far more 9mm rounds tested than .40 (because more are available for 9mm) but far more of them consistently penetrate the proper amount. (for a self defense carry weapon) Again, if we as concealed carriers were only concerned with a big fast bullet with stopping power, we'd just carry around a .50bmg. But we are concerned with more than that. Under penetration is bad, but over penetration can potentially be just as bad. Not only is it bad because it can exit your target and continue on at lethal speeds, but JHP bullets need time to expand and expanding is what causes soft tissue damage. If a JHP round over penetrates it means it's gone through soft tissue too quickly, thus not expanding to achieve maximum damage.

At the end of the day, the quote above and below, from this testing report hit the nail on the head.

Once you find a load that works, whatever you decide, try to keep all of this in perspective. Choice of caliber and bullet are not the most important aspects of successful self-defense. Awareness, proper mindset, marksmanship, and discernment of when to use your firearm are generally far more critical to your survival than choice of gear.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self...-tests/#380ACP

Click on the specific round name to see individual test results. You can compare permeant wound cavity from 9mm to .40cal and see they are nearly identical.

Just in case you don't care to learn about bullet ballistics, here is a snap shot comparison....


.40cal masive over penetration, minimal wound cavity.



.40cal proper penetration, proper wound cavity.



9mm most over penetrating round tested, larger wound cavity than .40cal which over penetrating.



9mm proper penetration, wound cavity equal to .40cal.

[shoei]

Originally Posted by Aatish

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Clearly someone didn't pay attention to jtodd_fl and his smiley fest... Can imagine you will be taking a vacay here shortly...

[shoei]

But my preference (key word here is MY - as in what feels right to me) is the P229... Home defense or quick grab would be the LCR... Like having the option of running .38 and .357...

I want to love USP but compact or not, doesn't feel right... Do want to try a P30L...

[Fundguy1]

Ill take the 8" wound cavity over the 6.8" and higher percentage of incapacitation. As far as accuracy, they're identical first shot and as far as follow up, the 40 or even 45 is just as easy if you are big enough and practiced. I am both. Also, handgun size has a lot to do with it. I see mini glocks and other brands in 40 and 45 and i think follow up shots are ludicrous with the kick and control issues of such a small mass weapon. Thats why my mini is a 380. Its actually harder to control a follow up shot than my midsize 40 but below 380 just isnt enough force to be effective.