German Engineering = Reliability?!

[yco]

Japanese cars are more simple, German cars are more sophisticated.. i love M cars but they re more likely create problems more often.. but key question is not that.. there is not much cars like German sports cars from Japanese manufacturers.. in my opinion GT-R can be but its not like a Camry still.. it has problems and needs attention..

[DerEisbaer]

I think key factor would also be availability / access to suitable mechanics.

Naturally, for German cars you will find a specialist here in Germany more likely, than somewhere in the US.

This being said, official dealers are increasingly bad when it comes to repairs. And at the same time: when I need someone here in the EU to tinker with a LS - not really a lot of expertise is easily available...

[David70]

Lots of interesting excuses

BMW owners care more - wife and I have both, don't see this at all, also not seeing that the Lexus owner just doesn't care when the car isn't running right

German's are more sophisticated - maybe M cars but not seeing it on the overall population. What is so special about a 2 liter turbo 3 series?

Lack of suitable mechanics for German cars - not buying it at all. All over town there are German specialists, with high accreditation. Then, why for an average German car does it take someone that is far better trained than the luxury Japanese car, again for a 2 liter turbo motor or other standard engine which is the bulk of their production.

[See5]

Originally Posted by DerEisbaer

I think key factor would also be availability / access to suitable mechanics.

Naturally, for German cars you will find a specialist here in Germany more likely, than somewhere in the US.

This being said, official dealers are increasingly bad when it comes to repairs. And at the same time: when I need someone here in the EU to tinker with a LS - not really a lot of expertise is easily available...

You can go into any major metro in the US and find 7-10 good independent BMW shops not counting the many BMW dealerships.

If its one thing the US is not lacking in, its people that know how to work on BMWs and Mercedes.

[David70]

Originally Posted by See5

You can go into any major metro in the US and find 7-10 good independent BMW shops not counting the many BMW dealerships.

If its one thing the US is not lacking in, its people that know how to work on BMWs and Mercedes.

I am having trouble with the luxury service market. Wife and I have a Cadillac, Acura (maybe it is near luxury but problem is the same), and BMW. BMW there are tons of independent service locations but for either Cadillac or Acura there seems to be virtually none. Is it because the non German dealerships are more reasonably priced (people don't care to find the independents), non Germans don't break down as often, I don't know where to look, not being German means easier to work on and more "general" shops work on all the rest, or something else?

I think I just found an independent to work on the Acura (VW/Audi independent opened new location specializing on Asian - for some reason they can work on a region but the VW/Audi, BMW, and MB are normally separate facilities) but nobody for the Cadillac.

[Z K]

I wouldn't say BMW being unreliable is due to maintenance... there's tons of non maintenance items that break. I'd say most of the time things breaking is not due to negligence. Sensors go bad, mechanical parts break - things unrelated to maintenance. It's very random what goes bad and the frequency of things going bad is much higher.

Also ,there are some terrible design choices that German car manufacturers make. To package things a certain way, Audi stuffs the radiator right behind the front bumper way in front of the car. When it breaks, you need to remove the whole front end to take it out. The AC condenser for the E92 3 series sits under the dashboard which means the whole dash needs to come out to replace it. Not to mention needlessly complex sensors and electrical systems. For anyone who wrenches on their own car - it is a pain to work on a German car. On Japanese cars, everything is pretty easy to replace and fix.

So for most people, it is not very reliable because of the complexity the systems - requiring more cost to repair. And the higher frequency of things breaking and needing repair.

Much of this can be seen in resale values of older cars too. A 10 year old Camry will still sell for $10k+, dropping 50% in value from new. A 10 year old BMW will also sell for $10k.. which is a whooping 80-90% drop from new. The market prices these cars this way because people know the Toyota will be more reliable used and last longer.

I really do feel like Germans created cars that need constant repair so they can pad their own pockets selling parts, repair services and new cars. Engineered obsolescence.

[Soterios]

They're not built for the same market. Toyota builds cars that they assume their buyer will drive for ten years. BMW builds cars that they assume their buyer will drive for three and then pawn off on someone else.

Why build long term reliability in when your average ownership is considerably shorter than the market average?

It's not just BMW. It's most luxury brands.

The reason that Lexus gets away with being fancy and reliable is that they're just hopped up Toyotas. (not that that's a bad thing)

[Captain Blood]

I think BMW owners tend to put their feet further down on the throttle than most Japanese upscale drivers do (Lexus & Acura in particular).

My Japanese cars have had very good reliability though, and I drove my Infinity almost as hard as I drive my 135.

[9krpmrx8]

My backup car is a 2002 Camry with a tad over 200k on it. And believe me, it has had it's share of issues (CV's, hubs, starter, alt, engine mounts, oil leaks, interior stuff breaking, etc) , same for my daughters 2004 Accord with just over 100k, it is starting to show its wear and I have replaced a few things this year (CV, starter, 3 window regulators, two locks, and a control arm). I have owned 6-7 Hondas and yes, they are reliable but for people to think they don't have issues is just turning a blind eye and the same goes fro Toyotas, with engine sludge problems, etc.

My 2011 335i has 96,000 miles on it and has been pretty trouble free except for a couple of cooling related items (busted hose, radiator fan) which is not uncommon after a car has spent 10+ years in south Texas.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8

My backup car is a 2002 Camry with a tad over 200k on it. And believe me, it has had it's share of issues (CV's, hubs, starter, alt, engine mounts, oil leaks, interior stuff breaking, etc) , same for my daughters 2004 Accord with just over 100k, it is starting to show its wear and I have replaced a few things this year (CV, starter, 3 window regulators, two locks, and a control arm). I have owned 6-7 Hondas and yes, they are reliable but for people to think they don't have issues is just turning a blind eye and the same goes fro Toyotas, with engine sludge problems, etc.

My 2011 335i has 96,000 miles on it and has been pretty trouble free except for a couple of cooling related items (busted hose, radiator fan) which is not uncommon after a car has spent 10+ years in south Texas.

I think you're highlighting the difference between highway and city driving. My parents rack up several hundred thousand miles on their Toyotas driving back and forth to their summer home and have few issues. A Honda with 100k after 14 years is doing harder driving (just guessing but you can confirm).

My dad donated his 1998 manual 4Runner a few years back with 340k on the clock having only changed the brake pads one time because they were old. I should also note that I beat the absolute shit out of that car for its first 40k (off road, etc). It needed the starter replaced twice in a decade and a half. It was a simple, yet well built, vehicle. The frame ended up rotting out but that was after being driven on the beach multiple times every summer. Never a rattle in the car.

[9krpmrx8]

None of my cars see a hard life, just driving around town to work/school. My daughters previous Accord was a 1995 and died at 300k when it jumped timing and ate itself, the first owner was a Honda SA and the car had a stack of paperwork for things that had been replaced, But 300k is 300k.

[lowrydr310]

Originally Posted by David70

What are these replacement "maintenance" parts that need to be replaced on German cars and not Japanese cars? Shouldn't BMW be pointing them out in the Maintenance Manual? Trying to think, filters and spark plugs are the only parts, then fluids, anything after that is when the part wears out? Are there any other maintenance parts?

This is a e90 forum after all, so here are the additional picky 'e90' maintenance items that are typically not common failures on Japanese brands:

Coils
Oil Filter Housing Gasket
Valve Cover Gasket
Oil Pan Gasket
Water Pump/Thermostat/Radiator
Window Regulators

You could argue that any Japanese car with high mileage will need the same repairs, but these items typically need to be replaced on the e90 much sooner than they would on a Japanese car.

All of these above except the oil pan gasket have been replaced on my car, and I also had a few more of the minor but seemingly common e90 issues:

Steering Wheel Lock (06 only?)
Windshield Washer Pump screen blockage
Door lock actuator failure
Differential input flange clunk (needs grease)

I don't have a N54, but the list for that would probably include the wastegate rattle, charge pipe failure, HPFP, injectors, and walnut blasting of the intake valves.

These lists sound scary, but fortunately most of the common issues are well documented at this point and if you have any reasonable mechanical skill they're relatively easy to repair alone, especially with lots of help from this forum.

[David70]

Originally Posted by lowrydr310

This is a e90 forum after all, so here are the additional picky 'e90' maintenance items that are typically not common failures on Japanese brands:

Coils
Oil Filter Housing Gasket
Valve Cover Gasket
Oil Pan Gasket
Water Pump/Thermostat/Radiator
Window Regulators

You could argue that any Japanese car with high mileage will need the same repairs, but these items typically need to be replaced on the e90 much sooner than they would on a Japanese car.

All of these above except the oil pan gasket have been replaced on my car, and I also had a few more of the somewhat specific and seemingly common e90 issues:

Steering Wheel Lock (06 only?)
Windshield Washer Pump screen blockage
Door lock actuator failure
Differential input flange clunk (needs grease)

I don't have a N54, but the list for that would probably include the wastegate rattle, charge pipe failure, HPFP, injectors, and walnut blasting of the intake valves.

These lists sound scary, but fortunately most of the common issues are well documented at this point and if you're have any reasonable mechanical skill they're relatively easy to repair alone, especially with lots of help from this forum.

Your ideas on "maintenance" are very different than mine (which is fine), I don't consider replacing window regulators, radiator, valve cover gasket, and most of the others "maintenance" when to me is is part that just failed (difference in maintenance and repair).

Maintenance is scheduled and because a part wears out as planned. I was on a plane recently that was delayed because of a "maintenance issue". This wasn't maintenance as a decently run system would have maintenance completed at normal intervals as part of other service during downtime, there was a failure that they had to fix but no one wants to hear failure or repair.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Z K

I really do feel like Germans created cars that need constant repair so they can pad their own pockets selling parts, repair services and new cars. Engineered obsolescence.

Duh. After all, they are in business to make money. SUckers will keep buying them so...

[David70]

Originally Posted by Soterios

They're not built for the same market. Toyota builds cars that they assume their buyer will drive for ten years. BMW builds cars that they assume their buyer will drive for three and then pawn off on someone else.

Why build long term reliability in when your average ownership is considerably shorter than the market average?

It's not just BMW. It's most luxury brands.

The reason that Lexus gets away with being fancy and reliable is that they're just hopped up Toyotas. (not that that's a bad thing)

Huge portion of owners lease, two of the main components that determine the lease price are initial price and residual value. They need the high residual value when returned to lower the lease cost. High reliability increases the residual values.

Then to help move some these cars coming off lease BMW puts extended warranties on them (CPO), where they continue to pay for these issues out of their pocket.

[Savageenterprise]

To be honest we'll never know. There are so many idiots that drive like crap and abuse/don't maintain their cars and blame the auto manufacturer for all their problems. I'm not saying there aren't problems with German cars, there have been a few models with repetitive problems but all in all it comes down to the person who owns the vehicle.

As my mother always said, "treat others how you would like to be treated". I firmly believe the same applies for a car. If you maintain it and don't drive like a donkey 80% of the time it will probably last.

Also, new models of almost any manufacturer tend to have more bugs then others because it's the first of its kind with new technology or engine or other things alike. Whenever I've purchased cars, I've tried to get one at least 2-3 years into the life cycle hoping the manufacturer worked out the kinks and I've been blessed so far.

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by David70

Huge portion of owners lease, two of the main components that determine the lease price are initial price and residual value. They need the high residual value when returned to lower the lease cost. High reliability increases the residual values.

Then to help move some these cars coming off lease BMW puts extended warranties on them (CPO), where they continue to pay for these issues out of their pocket.

Reliability certainly helps, but I think the whole perception of brand/quality plays a bigger role in the supply/demand curve of BMW. When the wife and I were looking at X3s for here earlier this year, we looked into leasing. I was actually pretty surprised at the expected post-lease value, honestly.

That said, I still don't think BMW makes their product for people who want to own a car long term. That's not their bread and butter.

[BigNorm4Life]

Originally Posted by Soterios

They're not built for the same market. Toyota builds cars that they assume their buyer will drive for ten years. BMW builds cars that they assume their buyer will drive for three and then pawn off on someone else.

Why build long term reliability in when your average ownership is considerably shorter than the market average?

It's not just BMW. It's most luxury brands.

The reason that Lexus gets away with being fancy and reliable is that they're just hopped up Toyotas. (not that that's a bad thing)

Thats a craptastic excuse for BMW

[Soterios]

Originally Posted by BigNorm4Life

Thats a craptastic excuse for BMW

Hah. Probably. I wasn't attempting to defend their practice. Just perhaps explain it.

I think everyone has this idea that all cars are built for the same thing (living forever) and I think that's a fantasy.

[DieselDiner]

Originally Posted by pheerlx

Who buys cars for their reliability anyway

People who actually buy and not lease for 3 years.

[Ali Shiralian]

I've had several bmws in my time and last year I decided to buy a Lexus. From my experience , companies like lexus MUST have something better to entice people lije me to not get another BMW SUV but rather go the Lexus route and that's their reliability. I've owned the Lexus for the past year and it's our favourite car to take out when we go on a trip, not the BMW not the jag or other cars. It just feels better put together and with more creature comforts that we can ever ask for. For what I get the in the Lexus RX, I needed to pay 20-30 k more to BMW and get an equal car. As far as BMW reliability, yeah I've had some that were built like a tank, 318I which I put 400,000 kilometres on it and I scraped it finally and an X5 diesel which has spent more time in the shop than in my garage so general BMW reliability is debatable.

I'm not advocating Japanese brands here, but they must give something extra to consumers so people won't chose German brands over them. Oh btw I also have a 29 year old Miata with original tranny and engine which I still take out for a spin on the weekends and have spent zero dollars on repairs so far.

Cheers everyone

[9krpmrx8]

My bosses youngest drives a couple of year old RX350, the media setup is a joke, it makes the old BMW idrive seem nice and it has zero sportiness and seems somewhat cheap and drives like a minivan. He owns a few Porsche SUV's and a Mercedes GLE and there really is no comparison but they also cost a lot more. Now, his daily is a 2010 Acura MDX SH AWD and puts the Lexus to shame in every way and it's 8 years old with 140k on it. Having driven the RX350 quite a bit, it really changed my opinion of Lexus and not in a good way.

It's always interesting to see people views on cars.