330I or MazdaSpeed 6

[scottz5]

If money is a factor get the mazda

[ska///235i]

WTF....delete this topic please!

[Sho]

It's all depends on what you want. If you are looking for a fun cheaper car, I think Mazdaspeed 6 will make you happier. The turbo charged engine can gain a lot of power by changing the ECU. And the 6 came with a rear limited slip diff, which BMW should had offered it to us.

[JazzEKline]

I think people are getting the Mazda 6 and the Mazdaspeed6 mixed up.

[Bimmerista]

The MazdaSpeed 6 will have a turbo 4 cylinder engine. The boost is very high.

As for ALL Japanese cars, nothing happens until you hit approx 4 k rpm. Then your skidd control will kick-in, even with all wheel drive, because the car is essentially a front wheel drive with a haldex type all wheel drive system.

The raw performance of the car appears to be very good (i.e. when driven at the limit), except that in everyday driving this car will get on your nerves just like the STi, WRX, Evos etc. Quality of Mzdas is not great at all. I agree with a previous post-want cheaper than 330, get a TL Dymamic package.

The MS-6 is simply not in same league, more of a racer car with factory mods than the sophisticated sports sedan that is the 330.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by Bimmerista

The MazdaSpeed 6 will have a turbo 4 cylinder engine. The boost is very high.

As for ALL Japanese cars, nothing happens until you hit approx 4 k rpm. Then your skidd control will kick-in, even with all wheel drive, because the car is essentially a front wheel drive with a haldex type all wheel drive system.

I really wouldn't consider 15.6psi @ 2500rpm(boost peak, so it will die down @ higher rpms) as "boosting high". I would consider 20psi or more to be boosted pretty high. Factory turbo pushing 15psi is not bad at all. We'll see how this factory F/I vehicle will perform overtime. I am sure they prepared the engine with extra strong internals to keep the durability level of the engine up.

And don't generalize and say "all japanese cars", many japanese cars don't even come with skid control system. and can you eleborate that skid control kicking in @ 4000rpm?

I am very familiar with japanese vehicle tuning, and I never heard any statement like that. If the vehicle does come equipped with skid/traction control, it does engage alot in wet/snow condition, but thats for all the damn FWDs, not just japanese vehicles. :mad:

[blueStreak]

Originally Posted by TB

I would normally never compare a Mazda to a BMW, however looking at the MazdaSpeed it offers great luxury, AWD, and performance.

Mazda and "great luxury" are mutually exclusive. AWD is moot because it can be had on either vehicle. The performance difference is something you'll have to determine for yourself.

Usually I sympathize with crazy comparisons of vehicle X vs vehicle Y but this one is pretty far out there.

[Bimmerista]

Originally Posted by lux.sh

I really wouldn't consider 15.6psi @ 2500rpm(boost peak, so it will die down @ higher rpms) as "boosting high". I would consider 20psi or more to be boosted pretty high. Factory turbo pushing 15psi is not bad at all. We'll see how this factory F/I vehicle will perform overtime. I am sure they prepared the engine with extra strong internals to keep the durability level of the engine up.

And don't generalize and say "all japanese cars", many japanese cars don't even come with skid control system. and can you eleborate that skid control kicking in @ 4000rpm?

I am very familiar with japanese vehicle tuning, and I never heard any statement like that. If the vehicle does come equipped with skid/traction control, it does engage alot in wet/snow condition, but thats for all the damn FWDs, not just japanese vehicles. :mad:

Fair enough, I have not driven all Japanese cars, but those that I do have experience with, Acuras, Toyotas, have the same issue, no low end torque, not until you push the engine into higher rpms (around 4 k). Combined with turbo, and I am going to guess that those tires are going to chirp when accelerating hard.

The MazdaSpeed will, from what I have read come with an all-wheel drive system symilar to that of Volvo - if true, then it will be a Haldex system and Haldex systems have as a distinct diadvantage the fact that they are based upon hydrawlic power to tranfer the power, resulting in a lag between slip detection by the system and reaction. Therefore the car experiences a moment of loss of grip which only the anti-skid mechanism can control.

I am therefore sceptical of the MadaSpeeds real life effectiveness as a sports car - it is after all getting the all-wheel drive because the front wheels alone simply cannot handle all that power/torque alone.

[blueStreak]

Originally Posted by Bimmerista

The MazdaSpeed will, from what I have read come with an all-wheel drive system symilar to that of Volvo - if true, then it will be a Haldex system and Haldex systems have as a distinct diadvantage the fact that they are based upon hydrawlic power to tranfer the power, resulting in a lag between slip detection by the system and reaction. Therefore the car experiences a moment of loss of grip which only the anti-skid mechanism can control.

You sure about that? The haldex in Audis use a clutch and it reacts in something like 1/6 or 1/8th of a wheel turn, IIRC.

[epiphone3]

German horses pull harder than Japanese ponies... enough said!

[ward]

doesn't the mazda get it's ass handed to it by the cheaper subaru???????????

not sure, if it's japanese it's crap to me but I thought that mazdaspeed 6 wasn't even that fast

[noflash]

Originally Posted by ward

doesn't the mazda get it's ass handed to it by the cheaper subaru???????????

not sure, if it's japanese it's crap to me but I thought that mazdaspeed 6 wasn't even that fast

It's not officially out or tested yet. I say it'll be faster than a WRX, but not an STI -- ~270 awd hp should be under six seconds, but it's a midsize sedan so it's hard to say. Looks nice besides the altezza.

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by Bimmerista

Fair enough, I have not driven all Japanese cars, but those that I do have experience with, Acuras, Toyotas, have the same issue, no low end torque, not until you push the engine into higher rpms (around 4 k). Combined with turbo, and I am going to guess that those tires are going to chirp when accelerating hard.

The MazdaSpeed will, from what I have read come with an all-wheel drive system symilar to that of Volvo - if true, then it will be a Haldex system and Haldex systems have as a distinct diadvantage the fact that they are based upon hydrawlic power to tranfer the power, resulting in a lag between slip detection by the system and reaction. Therefore the car experiences a moment of loss of grip which only the anti-skid mechanism can control.

I am therefore sceptical of the MadaSpeeds real life effectiveness as a sports car - it is after all getting the all-wheel drive because the front wheels alone simply cannot handle all that power/torque alone.

I agree. However, like I said. Not just japanese vehicles, any vehicle with relatively lightweight and lots of weight will suffer from "tire chirp". Many japanese vehicles do suffer from low-end torque, because those cars are mainly designed for economy scale(civics, celicas, etc). While they lack low-end torque, they make that back up and take advantage of revving very high. I never heard honda/toyotas 'chirping' tires after 4k rpms though. They aren't that powerful. At least in stock form they aren't. When those high-revving 4cyl engines found in honda/toyotas, equipped with FWD and most them without LSD or any sorts of traction control are mated with forced induction, thats when trouble begins. Tires/control ability will suffer. But in general, this applies to any high-powered(or I should say over-powered) FWD cars. FWD generally sucks in terms of putting power down to the ground. Torque steer is one of the major issues. This can always happen to BMW, mercedes, or whatever in similar form.

As far as Mazda's AWD system, I am not so familar how its related to Volvo's system as thats not my criteria. I do know by reading a review however, that the Mazdaspeed 6 is equipped with computer automated Active Torque Split AWD, which is capable of delievering up to 50% of the engine's power to the rear wheels. As it is computer automated, torque split is most likely dependent on data collected(wheelspin, yaw, and steering angle). It is also equipped with limited slip in the front and "electric clutch" in the rear.

I would guess with such system like that, "tire chirp" will be minimized. The handling though, its another question. I heard it doesn't handle as nimble as Evo or even STi.

Afterall, funniest thing is,

"We aimed for the linearity and controllability of the BMW 330i,"
-Mazdaspeed 6 program manager, Seiichi Ohmoto

[lux.sh]

Originally Posted by ward

not sure, if it's japanese it's crap to me

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by blueStreak

You sure about that? The haldex in Audis use a clutch and it reacts in something like 1/6 or 1/8th of a wheel turn, IIRC.

The proper Audi quattro system - which has been refined continuously over the last 25 years uses a torsen system.

Haldex is only used on VW derived vehicles - the A3 and TT - both of Golf DNA.

Haldex is for transverse engine applications. Torsen for longitudinal.

Haldex is vastly inferior to Torsen, ie VW syncro or 4 motion or whatever they call it these days is nothing like the real quattro system.

[JamieA]

As for BMW vs Mazda

Test drive them, and go with what your heart loves, unless your heart loves something you can't afford, then stop torturing yourself and us and get the Mazda.

As for Mazda reliability - I have had many of the real Mazdas and they were reliable, great cars for what they were. However Ford came along and ripped the guts out of them, and now they are just Ford parts-bin creations.

The telling factor is that when Mazda were teetering on the brink of going belly up and Ford bought them, they asked Mazda top brass to do a strategy presentation to them. They outlined plans for new models based on their then current organic design themes, expensive interiors, etc etc. They said Mazda stood for beauty and emotion. Apparently Ford's President (Jac Nassar I think at the time) stopped them and said "No you don't - you stand for value, get it!" he upped and walked out. Then came the dark days of hideous cars, and Mazda made money, now they are improving their designs once again...

But at a cost it seems - my boss had a Mazda Tribute SUV and it kept stopping and not restarting for no reason and he had to get it towed, bits fell off from the engine onto the road, the brakes failed twice due to software errors, and it was in the shop more than on the road. He couldn't let his wife drive it unless it crashed and injured her and the kids, so he ditched it. Everyone I know who has a new generation Mazda says they aren't what they were and the quality is now really low. Remember Auto mags just go on what they see superficially when they comment on quality - they don't generally live with the car day in and day out for a long time like you will. So they miss all the fatal flaws that get you in the long run. Instead they usually talk about fit and finish, panel gaps, grain matching of plastics, colour matching, and perceived materials quality.

In a round about way I am saying if you can't afford the BMW, get an Acura they are better made.

[davinet78]

you can never compare a mazda to a bmw
the quality , the feel the handling of a bmw is just incredible and the mazda would never be able to match it

[shuzmaker]

If you are looking for a 4WD, please compare or test drive a new STi, EVO, or even a used BMW Xi before comparing a new BMW to a Mazda.

Thanks.

[cntlaw]

Originally Posted by TB

I would normally never compare a Mazda to a BMW, however looking at the MazdaSpeed it offers great luxury, AWD, and performance. Reliability has been great on the Mazda 6, however I'm not sure how reliable the turbo would be?
The MazdaSpeed offers keyless access, 18inch wheels, sport suspension, all at $38 Cdn. I agree that BMW is in a different league, especially tech wise. I will test drive the MazdaSpeed tomorrow, and I think that will help with my decision.
On the other hand I've always owned japanese cars, and I really want to own a BMW, especially after test driving the 330i SP. I will decide after tomorrow's test drive.
Thanks for your replies.

TB

NO NO NO ! It is absolutely disgraceful. You don't go to test drive a Mazda after test driven a BMW. At least , it is the other way round.
I am curious as based on what elements you said you have already decided on the 330i?

Let's all help TB from falling back to hell, he is only one step to be in heaven ( a brand new 2006 E90 ! )

[blueStreak]

Originally Posted by JamieA

The proper Audi quattro system - which has been refined continuously over the last 25 years uses a torsen system.

Haldex is only used on VW derived vehicles - the A3 and TT - both of Golf DNA.

Haldex is for transverse engine applications. Torsen for longitudinal.

Haldex is vastly inferior to Torsen, ie VW syncro or 4 motion or whatever they call it these days is nothing like the real quattro system.

Quattro is Audi's moniker for AWD and 4motion is VW's moniker. Quattro is still Quattro whether it is in a TT with a Haldex system or an A4 with a Torsen system. Likewise, 4motion is still 4motion whether it is in a golf with Haldex or in a Passat with Quattro. As you said, it all depends on the mounting of the engine.

True, Haldex is nothing like Quattro, but I would hardly call it vastly inferior. But at this point I guess we are getting

My original post was to inquire if the Haldex Bimmerista posted about being used in the Mazda was the same as the one in the Mazda. Reason being is he said Mazda's Haldex is based on hydraulic power to transfer power which is not the way the Haldex system in VAG cars works.

[FNV]

Thanks for all your input, I was very curious on what people thought about the MazdaSpeed 6, even though I thought a lot of you may have confused it with the regular Mazda 6.

As I said before I was going to test drive it at the dealership, however the salesman informed me that the manager took it out for a spin and broke the shift linkage on it.....so now they have to wait for a new part from Japan.

Anyway I guess that speaks a lot for the quality of the vehicle, or the driving skills of the manager.

In comparing the two vehicles more closely, I found the MazdaSpeed6 to be nicely built, however it felt like every other Japanese car.."No soul". For some reason when I drove the 330I everything about it felt like it was built for drivers. I failed to mention that I drove the 330I a number of times, because a few months ago I almost bought a G35 coupe, however I'm glad I didn't..

The only reason I looked at the MazdaSpeed 6 was because it seem to have every feature that I wanted in a BMW, except for "identity"...and I don't want to drive a car that needs explaining.

Due to this incident I have decided to go with the 330I Sport Package, SG colour.

Thanks for everyone's input!

[Bimmerista]

Originally Posted by blueStreak

Quattro is Audi's moniker for AWD and 4motion is VW's moniker. Quattro is still Quattro whether it is in a TT with a Haldex system or an A4 with a Torsen system. Likewise, 4motion is still 4motion whether it is in a golf with Haldex or in a Passat with Quattro. As you said, it all depends on the mounting of the engine.

True, Haldex is nothing like Quattro, but I would hardly call it vastly inferior. But at this point I guess we are getting

My original post was to inquire if the Haldex Bimmerista posted about being used in the Mazda was the same as the one in the Mazda. Reason being is he said Mazda's Haldex is based on hydraulic power to transfer power which is not the way the Haldex system in VAG cars works.

Hello guys,

Sorry but it has been a busy day at work - it interferes with my postings;

I do not know which system the Mazda will use (all wheel drive) , if it is electronic, then it can be reasonably fast. The Haldex system is hydaulic - Volvo uses it. VW/Audi (tt only) uses a moded haldex system using an electronic clutch (I think that the hydraulic one is called wet).

I did not mean to imply that I know which system mazda will use, I only said that if it is the same as Volvo (syster company), it will be a hydraulic system - remember, Mazda has developed the small-car and medium car platform fro the Mazda 6, mazda 3, Volvo v40 and v70 and therefore it is possible that other technologies and system, such as drive train components, be shared between them.

But it is only speculation on my part.