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      09-17-2022, 02:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
So you're implying all car makers are created equal?

If tesla has terrible customer service and/or assume no responsibility to the longevity of their cars, we can assume everyone else will be the same?

Just want to make sure this is what you're implying.
No

Quote:
For a new car with a warranty, you don't even need to worry. Are you buying an EV? Probably not just going by your post so when you do have to, meaning by 2035, battery technology will have greatly improved and by then i'm assuming battery warranty will be 10-12 or even 15 year. So you won't even have to worry about replacing the battery pack in your car until 2050! How cool is that?
My next car is most likely going to be an EV.

Battery warranties on Teslas have been the same for 10 years, by your math it should be double what it currently is. Tesla can't alter the laws of physics.


Quote:
I guess i can use the same response i just posted above.
So you don't know? Or you just plan to throw the car away regardless?


Quote:
You know, and i know, carbon deposits rob an engine of power. Similar to a battery weakening over time. At least that's the argument people make when talking about how EV's are no good.
You can clean an engine with carbon buildup, you can't clean the degraded chemistry in a battery.

Quote:
Fact is, engines don't last nearly as long as they did back in the day.
source?

Quote:
Of all the tesla owners out there, even those who have bought and probably still own the very first ones are probably doing just fine.

The article OP posted is one guy. One guy doesn't represent the entire brand.
And every one of them faces this financial liability. It represents the entire brand, and numerous others.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...id/7935230001/

“A Chevy Volt, with just 70,000 miles, needed a new battery and some coolant,” reads an Aug. 25 post shared more than 600 times. “That'll be $30,000 dollars please!”
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      09-17-2022, 02:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
No
So can you clarify on what you meant then?



Quote:
My next car is most likely going to be an EV.

Battery warranties on Teslas have been the same for 10 years, by your math it should be double what it currently is. Tesla can't alter the laws of physics.
Tesla can't, and neither can anyone else. You're right.

When did tesla launch their first production car available for sale?

Where are they now?

If anything, tesla is still 10 years ahead of everyone else. On a "dead" battery technology. It will only improve from here. The ICE ban is 2035. Not tomorrow. So time will only help EV. But time is also the enemy of ICE.




Quote:
So you don't know? Or you just plan to throw the car away regardless?
I guess i can use the same reply just above.




Quote:
You can clean an engine with carbon buildup, you can't clean the degraded chemistry in a battery.
Is carbon cleanup on a 30k engine still under warranty? Let's say my M3 has 30k miles. Can i schedule a carbon cleanup tomorrow and it'll be covered? If not, how much does that usually run?

You can't clean a degraded battery. You replace it. If battery warranty is 10 year, you have nothing to worry about for 10 whole years.

And as i said earlier. As time moves foward, this technology will improve thus running up the warranty to maybe 12 years or 15. If you buy an EV in 2035 because you want to wait, imagine not having to worry about a battery replacement out of your pocket until 2050?

The average age of a car on the road today is 12 years. Are you keeping your cars longer than 12 years? People lease. People finance for 60 or 72 months. Then trade or sell and get something new.

These habits all fall under a battery warranty if a warranty lasts 10-15 years.



Quote:
source?

lol you really think modern DI engines have a better longevity than engines of the past? I'm not talking about the 70s carb engines.


Quote:
And every one of them faces this financial liability. It represents the entire brand, and numerous others.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...id/7935230001/

“A Chevy Volt, with just 70,000 miles, needed a new battery and some coolant,” reads an Aug. 25 post shared more than 600 times. “That'll be $30,000 dollars please!”

Cool. So a chevy bolt. And a 2013 model s.

Hmmm. 2 cars of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of EV's on the road.

I'll take a chance at keep owning an EV.
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      09-17-2022, 02:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henrylee View Post
I know several Tesla owners that went back ICE/hybrid or plug in
I know several "car people" who went to a tesla and never want to own another ICE car again. In fact, one of them has a model 3 performance which made me buy my model 3.

It works both ways.
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      09-17-2022, 03:52 PM   #26
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Not gonna fuel the flames on either side of the debate, but this is cool!


Last edited by dscabra; 09-17-2022 at 03:59 PM..
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      09-17-2022, 03:56 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O_Doc View Post
The panic and hysteria at the waning of the ICE is the funniest part.
Caused by the panic and hysteria of the same crowd whose falling yet again for the latest doom and gloom scam.

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      09-17-2022, 04:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
So you're implying all car makers are created equal?

If tesla has terrible customer service and/or assume no responsibility to the longevity of their cars, we can assume everyone else will be the same?

Just want to make sure this is what you're implying.
No

Quote:
For a new car with a warranty, you don't even need to worry. Are you buying an EV? Probably not just going by your post so when you do have to, meaning by 2035, battery technology will have greatly improved and by then i'm assuming battery warranty will be 10-12 or even 15 year. So you won't even have to worry about replacing the battery pack in your car until 2050! How cool is that?
My next car is most likely going to be an EV.

Battery warranties on Teslas have been the same for 10 years, by your math it should be double what it currently is. Tesla can't alter the laws of physics.


Quote:
I guess i can use the same response i just posted above.
So you don't know? Or you just plan to throw the car away regardless?


Quote:
You know, and i know, carbon deposits rob an engine of power. Similar to a battery weakening over time. At least that's the argument people make when talking about how EV's are no good.
You can clean an engine with carbon buildup, you can't clean the degraded chemistry in a battery.

Quote:
Fact is, engines don't last nearly as long as they did back in the day.
source?

Quote:
Of all the tesla owners out there, even those who have bought and probably still own the very first ones are probably doing just fine.

The article OP posted is one guy. One guy doesn't represent the entire brand.
And every one of them faces this financial liability. It represents the entire brand, and numerous others.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...id/7935230001/

“A Chevy Volt, with just 70,000 miles, needed a new battery and some coolant,” reads an Aug. 25 post shared more than 600 times. “That'll be $30,000 dollars please!”
Lol. Just run as fast as you can and slam your head into a brick wall. This dude knows everything. If you fell 30 feet and lived, he fell 40 and lived. He will call you a clown at some point. It's his go to move. Somehow a Corvette will be mentioned also. It is entertaining reading for sure. I'll give him that. Kinda like the old Star newspapers.😂🤣
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      09-17-2022, 05:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
replacing a head gasket or dropping in a fresh short block is something many can and do choose to do themselves, at a nominal cost relative to the replacement cost of the car in many cases.

Who here can R&R an EV battery pack?

I've ground-up rebuilt multiple cars and have no problems diving in with both hands. I also have a degree in electrical engineering and have worked in the electrical industry for 29 years so I'm well qualified in both areas, I'll probably never rebuild a battery pack. It's just not how those work or are built.

With regards to the cost of batteries, we are moving towards a model where repairs of battery packs will exceed the value of the cars in need. These cars will become disposable as a result. These cars and batteries have been in the market for over a decade, and the batteries haven't gotten cheaper, so spare the comments about that.
Actually, lithium batteries cost per kWh is down by 90% since 2010 and hopefully more car manufacturers will make it easier to swap out batteries, especially in labor costs. Battery swaps in lieu of charging has already been adopted in China and is spreading. With recycling getting raise in the future, the cost effectiveness of EV batteries will
only increase.


Also, less moving parts means less overall maintenance for an EV. So while you might know how to drop in a new had gasket every 120k miles, EVs simply don't have head gaskets. Rough idling, sluggish old clunkers will be largely a thing of the past, not to mention oil stains in the driveway.
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      09-17-2022, 05:47 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O_Doc View Post
The panic and hysteria at the waning of the ICE is the funniest part.
M2 Coupe
C7 Corvette

Not many emissions savings there....
2019 with 3k miles. Small footprint.
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      09-17-2022, 05:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Actually, lithium batteries cost per kWh is down by 90% since 2010 and hopefully more car manufacturers will make it easier to swap out batteries, especially in labor costs. Battery swaps in lieu of charging has already been adopted in China and is spreading. With recycling getting raise in the future, the cost effectiveness of EV batteries will
only increase.


Also, less moving parts means less overall maintenance for an EV. So while you might know how to drop in a new had gasket every 120k miles, EVs simply don't have head gaskets. Rough idling, sluggish old clunkers will be largely a thing of the past, not to mention oil stains in the driveway.

Exactly.

But watch out, we're not supposed to like EV's even though we still have ICE toys lol.

My next 2 cars that are arriving in 2023 are ICE but i'm supposed to hate EV.

My model 3 has been one of the best car buys i ever done in over 2 decades. And THE BEST daily i ever had.

I can never go back to an ICE daily.
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      09-17-2022, 09:37 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Actually, lithium batteries cost per kWh is down by 90% since 2010 and hopefully more car manufacturers will make it easier to swap out batteries, especially in labor costs. Battery swaps in lieu of charging has already been adopted in China and is spreading. With recycling getting raise in the future, the cost effectiveness of EV batteries will
only increase.


Also, less moving parts means less overall maintenance for an EV. So while you might know how to drop in a new had gasket every 120k miles, EVs simply don't have head gaskets. Rough idling, sluggish old clunkers will be largely a thing of the past, not to mention oil stains in the driveway.
Every 120,000... lol.
Sorry, former Subaru driver here.
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      09-17-2022, 10:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
So can you clarify on what you meant then?
Cars are going to be made with non-serviceable parts that cost more than $20K just for parts, rendering these cars as mechanically totaled at a rather young age/mileage.



Quote:
Tesla can't, and neither can anyone else. You're right.

When did tesla launch their first production car available for sale?

Where are they now?

8 years battery warranty. Same warranty they had 10 years ago. The chemistry of the batteries is unchanged. You are waiting for an as-yet uninvited solution to get to the nirvana you have promised, and betting big on it too. There is a reason the warranty hasn't changed :

Tesla can't, and neither can anyone else. You're right.


Quote:
If anything, tesla is still 10 years ahead of everyone else. On a "dead" battery technology. It will only improve from here.
Untill the "unobtanium" battery is invented, you are still stuck with what we have now. I just looked at Tesla EV's sold today, still the same battery technology. If I buy one today, were will I be in 8 years?


Quote:
Is carbon cleanup on a 30k engine still under warranty? Let's say my M3 has 30k miles. Can i schedule a carbon cleanup tomorrow and it'll be covered? If not, how much does that usually run?
Does it need it?

Quote:
You can't clean a degraded battery. You replace it. If battery warranty is 10 year, you have nothing to worry about for 10 whole years.
And then it costs $20-30K

Quote:
And as i said earlier. As time moves foward, this technology will improve thus running up the warranty to maybe 12 years or 15. If you buy an EV in 2035 because you want to wait, imagine not having to worry about a battery replacement out of your pocket until 2050?
Still betting on unobtanium?

Quote:
The average age of a car on the road today is 12 years. Are you keeping your cars longer than 12 years? People lease. People finance for 60 or 72 months. Then trade or sell and get something new.
And at this rate it will fall to 8 it seems, and no one will see a problem with that. Because why not just throw it away and buy another. That's Super green.

Quote:
These habits all fall under a battery warranty if a warranty lasts 10-15 years.
Is there such a thing?


Quote:
Cool. So a chevy bolt. And a 2013 model s.
Hmmm. 2 cars of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of EV's on the road.
Any model S, 3, X, and model Y are all in the same general range, as are a lot of other brands. This isn't any secret, nor limited in scope.

Quote:
I'll take a chance at keep owning an EV.
Start saving now and I'm sure you can be ready for it.
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      09-17-2022, 10:33 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Actually, lithium batteries cost per kWh is down by 90% since 2010 and hopefully more car manufacturers will make it easier to swap out batteries, especially in labor costs. Battery swaps in lieu of charging has already been adopted in China and is spreading. With recycling getting raise in the future, the cost effectiveness of EV batteries will
only increase.
The cost has risen for some batteries, not fallen. The chevy volt is a perfect example and this is cited/detailed in the link I provided. Antiquated parts = more expensive. I deal with this in my line of work a lot, antiquated replacements to keep an asset running often cost more than starting over = disposable society.

Quote:
Also, less moving parts means less overall maintenance for an EV. So while you might know how to drop in a new had gasket every 120k miles, EVs simply don't have head gaskets. Rough idling, sluggish old clunkers will be largely a thing of the past, not to mention oil stains in the driveway.
Until the battery reaper comes a calling, then it's going to be ~$25,000. Sure, you saved on oil changes and timing chains... It may even be a wash on some platforms, but you don't need a 2nd mortgage to change your oil.
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      09-17-2022, 11:23 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Actually, lithium batteries cost per kWh is down by 90% since 2010 and hopefully more car manufacturers will make it easier to swap out batteries, especially in labor costs. Battery swaps in lieu of charging has already been adopted in China and is spreading. With recycling getting raise in the future, the cost effectiveness of EV batteries will
only increase.
The cost has risen for some batteries, not fallen. The chevy volt is a perfect example and this is cited/detailed in the link I provided. Antiquated parts = more expensive. I deal with this in my line of work a lot, antiquated replacements to keep an asset running often cost more than starting over = disposable society.

Quote:
Also, less moving parts means less overall maintenance for an EV. So while you might know how to drop in a new had gasket every 120k miles, EVs simply don't have head gaskets. Rough idling, sluggish old clunkers will be largely a thing of the past, not to mention oil stains in the driveway.

Until the battery reaper comes a calling, then it's going to be ~$25,000. Sure, you saved on oil changes and timing chains... It may even be a wash on some platforms, but you don't need a 2nd mortgage to change your oil.
Unfortunately early adapters will suffer high costs due to ever changing technology and old components like you mentioned, which is why I always advocated leasing current EV's until technology makes them cheaper to own long term.

I think eventually a new battery will be $10k and last 10 years for newer cars. Take into account $3k timing belt change, $2500 head gasket, and $120x10=$1200 in oil changes and it's not too bad considering the car will run like new.
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      09-17-2022, 11:32 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad86tsi View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP View Post
So can you clarify on what you meant then?
Cars are going to be made with non-serviceable parts that cost more than $20K just for parts, rendering these cars as mechanically totaled at a rather young age/mileage.



Quote:
Tesla can't, and neither can anyone else. You're right.

When did tesla launch their first production car available for sale?

Where are they now?

8 years battery warranty. Same warranty they had 10 years ago. The chemistry of the batteries is unchanged. You are waiting for an as-yet uninvited solution to get to the nirvana you have promised, and betting big on it too. There is a reason the warranty hasn't changed :

Tesla can't, and neither can anyone else. You're right.


Quote:
If anything, tesla is still 10 years ahead of everyone else. On a "dead" battery technology. It will only improve from here.
Untill the "unobtanium" battery is invented, you are still stuck with what we have now. I just looked at Tesla EV's sold today, still the same battery technology. If I buy one today, were will I be in 8 years?


Quote:
Is carbon cleanup on a 30k engine still under warranty? Let's say my M3 has 30k miles. Can i schedule a carbon cleanup tomorrow and it'll be covered? If not, how much does that usually run?
Does it need it?

Quote:
You can't clean a degraded battery. You replace it. If battery warranty is 10 year, you have nothing to worry about for 10 whole years.
And then it costs $20-30K

Quote:
And as i said earlier. As time moves foward, this technology will improve thus running up the warranty to maybe 12 years or 15. If you buy an EV in 2035 because you want to wait, imagine not having to worry about a battery replacement out of your pocket until 2050?
Still betting on unobtanium?

Quote:
The average age of a car on the road today is 12 years. Are you keeping your cars longer than 12 years? People lease. People finance for 60 or 72 months. Then trade or sell and get something new.
And at this rate it will fall to 8 it seems, and no one will see a problem with that. Because why not just throw it away and buy another. That's Super green.

Quote:
These habits all fall under a battery warranty if a warranty lasts 10-15 years.
Is there such a thing?


Quote:
Cool. So a chevy bolt. And a 2013 model s.
Hmmm. 2 cars of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of EV's on the road.
Any model S, 3, X, and model Y are all in the same general range, as are a lot of other brands. This isn't any secret, nor limited in scope.

Quote:
I'll take a chance at keep owning an EV.
Start saving now and I'm sure you can be ready for it.
Batteries have evolved the past ten years. Same chemistry, sure, but the complements are evolving resulting in cheaper, higher capacity batteries.

https://www.hotcars.com/heres-how-ev...ver-the-years/

Solid state batteries seem to be the next evolution:

https://electrek.co/2022/07/19/how-s...s-by-up-to-39/
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      09-18-2022, 05:29 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Batteries have evolved the past ten years. Same chemistry, sure, but the complements are evolving resulting in cheaper, higher capacity batteries.

https://www.hotcars.com/heres-how-ev...ver-the-years/

Solid state batteries seem to be the next evolution:

https://electrek.co/2022/07/19/how-s...s-by-up-to-39/

Exactly.

Some people really don't get it.

Can't believe people have this of a tough time accepting what's to come.
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      09-18-2022, 05:32 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Unfortunately early adapters will suffer high costs due to ever changing technology and old components like you mentioned, which is why I always advocated leasing current EV's until technology makes them cheaper to own long term.

I think eventually a new battery will be $10k and last 10 years for newer cars. Take into account $3k timing belt change, $2500 head gasket, and $120x10=$1200 in oil changes and it's not too bad considering the car will run like new.
Right.

People are using their assumption based off past rare scenarios that were the cause of old tech.

You wouldn't want to go into the apple store and try to buy an iphone 8 today right? No, you would want the latest one, or at least the most previous model. And a new iphone comes around every 6-8 months or so anyway.

As time moves foward, battery technology will improve. I think i said this about 100 times.

People are making assumptions based off the past and using it as if that's the future. It is not. Automotive evolution doesn't work that way.

EV is inevitably the evolution of the car world.
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      09-18-2022, 06:03 AM   #39
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People dissing EVs are like horse folk dissing automobiles a century ago. Even the Amish today only use horse and buggy for nostalgia.
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      09-18-2022, 12:19 PM   #40
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Best thing about Tesla model 3 is no SMOG
So in like 10+ yrs when this toaster is FUBAR, you can get one for cheap and customer fab an LT4 in it
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      09-18-2022, 12:33 PM   #41
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There is no point arguing with the EV nutswingers, especially when some of them are so over-the-top they seem paid to just simply troll their message. I don't think anyone would argue true progress, but EV's in their current iteration are not "progress." It's just swapping one problem for another, hidden behind the guise being socially and environmentally "responsible," exploiting an entire generation whose sole purpose is moral exhibitionism, while enriching those that have manufactured the entire movement.
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      09-18-2022, 04:02 PM   #42
GoneIn4Secs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Actually, lithium batteries cost per kWh is down by 90% since 2010 and hopefully more car manufacturers will make it easier to swap out batteries, especially in labor costs. Battery swaps in lieu of charging has already been adopted in China and is spreading. With recycling getting raise in the future, the cost effectiveness of EV batteries will
only increase.


Also, less moving parts means less overall maintenance for an EV. So while you might know how to drop in a new had gasket every 120k miles, EVs simply don't have head gaskets. Rough idling, sluggish old clunkers will be largely a thing of the past, not to mention oil stains in the driveway.
And dont forget to mention those EVs, they all weigh 5000 lbs++

reading some of these posts, you guys remind of limousine liberals as they clink their champagne glasses 5 mins before the titanic is going to fall off the edge of the earth

it seems almost 'biblical'
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      09-18-2022, 04:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs View Post
And dont forget to mention those EVs, they all weigh 5000 lbs++
What are you trying to say about weight? Maybe some worn bushings and tire wear adds to maintenance, but it's not like every EV is a pig. Here's some EVs under 5000 lbs:

Audi Q4 e-tron
VW ID4
Volvo XC40
Ford Mach E
BMW iX3
Tesla Model X
Polestar 2
Mercedes EQA
BWM i3
Lexus US 300e
Nissan Leaf
Tesla Model 3
VW ID3
Hyundai Kona
Mazda MX-30
VW e-Golf
Hyundai Ioniq
Kia e-Niro
Kia e-Soul
Mini Cooper SE
Fiat 500e

Hardley "all" like you mentioned. Speaking of more misinformation:


Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs View Post
reading some of these posts, you guys remind of limousine liberals as they clink their champagne glasses 5 mins before the titanic is going to fall off the edge of the earth

it seems almost 'biblical'
Ironically, it's the climate change deniers that think the Titanic isn't sinking. Your metaphor is backwards.
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      09-18-2022, 04:49 PM   #44
GoneIn4Secs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nerdogray View Post
There is no point arguing with the EV nutswingers, especially when some of them are so over-the-top they seem paid to just simply troll their message. I don't think anyone would argue true progress, but EV's in their current iteration are not "progress." It's just swapping one problem for another, hidden behind the guise being socially and environmentally "responsible," exploiting an entire generation whose sole purpose is moral exhibitionism, while enriching those that have manufactured the entire movement.
and giving the govt and regulators a kill switch over your mode of transportation,

yea that should work out well for people, wonder what could do wrong with being dependant on electricity for everything?

Last edited by GoneIn4Secs; 09-18-2022 at 04:56 PM..
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