Formula 1 cost cap breach

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Fine, but Max isn't responsible for the problem that RBR has....and that is what you are ignoring. It's not going away and most can see that.

There Isn't a problem , because what really matters for Red Bull is that MAX is the double World Champion .
And this season the Red Bull-Honda constructors World Title as well .
Thanks to both Red Bull drivers and the outstanding race strategy from Hannah Schmitz .

All the rest is secondary and Red Bull just pays that FIA fine with pleasure and ease .

So , the problem what you are saying is actually a storm in a glass of water .
No bad for a energy drink maker as the HAM fans are saying ...

On the other hand : This is really bad !
Can the FIA name the female spy who works for them ?
Can they make it public ?
Meanwhile the FIA knows that Wolff paid her to get the protected inside information to screw some other teams ...

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Obvious that we can't be sure it was offered but it's probable that it will be.

All we hear is rumours.
For all we know they're still going through the numbers to see how much the breach is (or if there is any breach at all; I think the only thing that is currently certain, is that they're late with the numbers).
No sense in speculating about something nobody has any clue about except the maybe the FIA and RB, if the accountants have finished their work.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by 3798j

This is getting ridiculous. The first sentence in the PlanetF1 article I linked says: FIA must come down hard on Red Bull, but championship DQ is unfair.
From there people have gone defensive on whether MAX keeps his title or not...with some pretty stupid comments. My belief...he's going to keep it.

That is an opinion article. Nothing more nothing less.

Originally Posted by 3798j

Every additional day that there's silence from the FIA should concern any RBR fan.

To be perfectly honest as someone neutral in all this. I have been a RB hater since it was Vettel/Webber and recently now I equally don't like Lewis. RB fans seem to be more reveling in current season success.

From what I seen online in comment sections is Ham fans still up in arms over 2021, this is just a new version. It is no coincidence Ham fans virtually disappeared from this sites F1 section, until resurfacing now hoping for some kind a penalty to nullify Max's first championship.

Lets be real FIA isn't going to do sh*t to change 2021 championship.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

All we hear is rumours.

It is always all rumors.

Like the click bait BS articles about RB went over by $10 mill. That gets the masses in a frenzy and then they are always let down.

PlanetF1 click bait:
‘Red Bull could have exceeded the budget cap by $10m, a capital offence’

https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bu...pital-offence/

[3798j]

Originally Posted by M3WC

That is an opinion article. Nothing more nothing less.

No Shit.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by 3798j

No Shit.

Don't take it as gospel then. No one here gives a sh*t about that guys opinion but you.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by M3WC

That is an opinion article. Nothing more nothing less.


To be perfectly honest as someone neutral in all this. I have been a RB hater since it was Vettel/Webber and recently now I equally don't like Lewis. RB fans seem to be more reveling in current season success.

From what I seen online in comment sections is Ham fans still up in arms over 2021, this is just a new version. It is no coincidence Ham fans virtually disappeared from this sites F1 section, until resurfacing now hoping for some kind a penalty to nullify Max's first championship.

Lets be real FIA isn't going to do sh*t to change 2021 championship.

I think the Ham fans are more just shocked at the fact that Max is dominating in a way Ham never could until he got the “5 year head start cheat engine”. On top of that Max at such a young age is already setting many records, of which Ham has never accomplished with said MB car (ie season wins, points, etc.). It took Ham until 29 to win his second and by the time Max is 29, he may have 5 or 6. Furthermore, he hasn’t even had the fastest car while doing this which really is a stick in their craw - instead he just has pure talent the sport has not seen in decades.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I think the Ham fans are more just shocked at the fact that Max is dominating in a way Ham never could until he got the “5 year head start cheat engine”. On top of that Max at such a young age is already setting many records, of which Ham has never accomplished with said MB car (ie season wins, points, etc.). It took Ham until 29 to win his second and by the time Max is 29, he may have 5 or 6. Furthermore, he hasn’t even had the fastest car while doing this which really is a stick in their craw - instead he just has pure talent the sport has not seen in decades.

This very well could turn into RB dominating the ground effect era.

Hoping Ferrari can build on what they achieved this season and charles can bring the fight.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I think the Ham fans are more just shocked at the fact that Max is dominating in a way Ham never could until he got the “5 year head start cheat engine”. On top of that Max at such a young age is already setting many records, of which Ham has never accomplished with said MB car (ie season wins, points, etc.). It took Ham until 29 to win his second and by the time Max is 29, he may have 5 or 6. Furthermore, he hasn’t even had the fastest car while doing this which really is a stick in their craw - instead he just has pure talent the sport has not seen in decades.

Well said mate !

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I think the Ham fans are more just shocked at the fact that Max is dominating in a way Ham never could until he got the “5 year head start cheat engine”. On top of that Max at such a young age is already setting many records, of which Ham has never accomplished with said MB car (ie season wins, points, etc.). It took Ham until 29 to win his second and by the time Max is 29, he may have 5 or 6. Furthermore, he hasn’t even had the fastest car while doing this which really is a stick in their craw - instead he just has pure talent the sport has not seen in decades.

See it’s there again, this boundless cheating claim. This is from a supporter of a team that currently has actually been found to have cheated affecting the 21/22 season. No I know for Max it can’t can’t be the car it always has to be him and he is good, but a great, it’s early.

But Merc didn’t cheat, they out engineered and out competed the entire field for 7 years. I guess that has to hurt fans of other teams I guess, but cheating. No.

RBR as it stands now, well they have cheated, funny hey.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

See it’s there again, this boundless cheating claim. This is from a supporter of a team that currently has actually been found to have cheated affecting the 21/22 season. No I know for Max it can’t can’t be the car it always has to be him and he is good, but a great, it’s early.

But Merc didn’t cheat, they out engineered and out competed the entire field for 7 years. I guess that has to hurt fans of other teams I guess, but cheating. No.

RBR as it stands now, well they have cheated, funny hey.

I mean, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that MB just happened to start on the exact same engineering well before any team knew it was going to be the next engine configuration. To me that, along with their secret tire tests, etc all sound like cheating.

What doesn’t sound like cheating is going over a soft budget limit. If they didn’t want teams to have the ability to go over the 145MM cap as a minor thing, then they should not have signed off on it.
I think Toto is just sad he can’t spend 30-40MM more to try to outdo RB because it’s quite obvious that they’re extra years of dev and unlimited funds gave them the advantage. Now they have a cap that they can’t really build a great car without 450-500MM per season.

[E86Z4MC]

On the one hand people are referring to exceeding the budget cap as no big deal, when specifically Ross Brawn has stated at the outset the severity of consequences that can come from exceeding these limits.

https://www.marca.com/en/f1/2022/10/...40a8b456b.html

Especially given how tight the title fight was, the end of last year's season, and the ill attempts to justify Max's results last year (including "Spa as a race win, and discounting the gift at the end of the season), to justify a result.

Max is no doubt talented. Even if folks argue that" it was the car "during Mercedes' stretch of domination, the cost cap was explicitly implemented to level playing field. Red Bull has run afoul of this. The intent was never for this to be a luxury tax.

Ultimately the outcome is up to the FIA, but if the penalty isn't severe to ensure the reward (2x wdc and constructors) didn't outweigh the risk, it will just start another development war (which then cuts into F1s overall amount of profitability).

Also, Max's accomplishments by age don't really matter in these comparisons to Lewis. Given how difficult Hamilton had to work to even get into F1, do people really doubt that he could've performed at a younger age if given the opportunity? He faced a reigning world champ as a teammate in his rookie season and outraced him. Any other teammate, he would've handily beat and been world champion. Alonso was (and still is) an amazing driver. Certainly not everyone could be successful at such a young age, but to use that as some kind of one-up to Lewis Hamilton only highlights the uphill battle Lewis has had to endure to get his opportunities.

[M3WC]

If FIA are going to keep the 5% minor overspend rule. The only way to keep peoples panties from bunching up would be to transfer over overages from year to year. Team A overspends by 1mill, then next season their budget is $144mill + 5%. They overspend by another 1mill following season, the next years budget is $143mill + 5%. If they don't creep into 5%, budget gets reset to $145mill + 5%. Simple solution.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

There Isn't a problem , because what really matters for Red Bull is that MAX is the double World Champion .
And this season the Red Bull-Honda constructors World Title as well .
Thanks to both Red Bull drivers and the outstanding race strategy from Hannah Schmitz .

All the rest is secondary and Red Bull just pays that FIA fine with pleasure and ease .

This comment is highly ironic. This is the same stance Mercedes fans were taking when Red Bull fans were complaining. All the accusations towards Mercedes of cheating/bending the rules is all noise while Mercedes was laughing and curb stomping the grid to 8 straight constructors and 7 straight drivers championships.

"There isn't a problem, because what really matters for Mercedes-AMG Petronas is that HAM is 7-time world champion and Mercedes is 8-time constructors title holders as well. All the rest is secondary and Mercedes just pays any fines with pleasure and ease"

Everyone doesn't care about anything when their team is winning but anything is everything when their team is losing.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by M3WC

If FIA are going to keep the 5% minor overspend rule. The only way to keep peoples panties from bunching up would be to transfer over overages from year to year. Team A overspends by 1mill, then next season their budget is $144mill + 5%. They overspend by another 1mill following season, the next years budget is $143mill + 5%. If they don't creep into 5%, budget gets reset to $145mill + 5%. Simple solution.

This doesn't work because Red Bull, Ferrari & Mercedes will gladly exploit that and smile while doing so. One issue with this is it's not effective in trying to maintain some sort of parity because most of the car gets carried over to the following season so if a team "over-develops" this year and gets a reduced budget the following season, there's no real penalty.

The only way to keep everyone honest is to remove this over-spend buffer and have a hard cap. It makes absolutely no sense to say "we will penalize you hard if you breach the cap. Oh by the way, don't worry too much if you don't breach the cap by more than 5%".

[MontyB1]

The challenge I have with this spending limit when you look in the cold light of day is really how bad it is especially if you do push to cheat the limit.

So RBR have managed to spend more than any team that benefits last year and this years cars. But the punishment if it’s cash will only effect next years car but that is probably already in development so maybe the year after.

Regardless of anything else that seems, well, a bit wrong to me when people talk about punishments should only be in development and costs for the future years. Surely the punishment should point to where the gains were made, this year and last year even if it’s constructors and no driver, maybe.

The cost cap is meant to bring the teams closer and it might, but if any team does get an advantage it’s harder to catch up, so any spend last year is of huge future benefit. Maybe they should allow teams at the back to be able to spend more if they have it to develop themselves to the front. That seems a more sensible approach and limit the top fastest teams from trying to extend a lead regardless of who it is.

For any team that does cheat the cost cap, the pain should be in the years that the cheating was done at the very least or super severe in the later years; otherwise what is the point and where are the teeth.

[lens]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

The challenge I have with this spending limit when you look in the cold light of day is really how bad it is especially if you do push to cheat the limit.

So RBR have managed to spend more than any team that benefits last year and this years cars. But the punishment if it’s cash will only effect next years car but that is probably already in development so maybe the year after.

Regardless of anything else that seems, well, a bit wrong to me when people talk about punishments should only be in development and costs for the future years. Surely the punishment should point to where the gains were made, this year and last year even if it’s constructors and no driver, maybe.

The cost cap is meant to bring the teams closer and it might, but if any team does get an advantage it’s harder to catch up, so any spend last year is of huge future benefit. Maybe they should allow teams at the back to be able to spend more if they have it to develop themselves to the front. That seems a more sensible approach and limit the top fastest teams from trying to extend a lead regardless of who it is.

For any team that does cheat the cost cap, the pain should be in the years that the cheating was done at the very least or super severe in the later years; otherwise what is the point and where are the teeth.

Again.

FIA confirmed that noone overspent on car development.

RBR has not benefitted from overspending on car development or anything of the sort, they made a car that was good the first time, while most other teams did not.


This is an argument about catering and staff wages (3 highest earners)


Man people really do not read the information given, all they see is "minor budget breach" and instantly think RBR spent it on the car and they have an advantage.

The whole point of the budget cap was to nerf Ferrari and Mercedes from throwing money the at the car to win championships.


This year, Ferrari had the better car, but TD and strategy wise screwed them.

RBR only caught up after the summer break. They didn't have an advantage making the car from last year, everyone spent the same money, and of course teams are going to complain when they fucked up, hell even AMR brought in a brand new car design halfway through the season.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

This comment is highly ironic. This is the same stance Mercedes fans were taking when Red Bull fans were complaining. All the accusations towards Mercedes of cheating/bending the rules is all noise while Mercedes was laughing and curb stomping the grid to 8 straight constructors and 7 straight drivers championships.

"There isn't a problem, because what really matters for Mercedes-AMG Petronas is that HAM is 7-time world champion and Mercedes is 8-time constructors title holders as well. All the rest is secondary and Mercedes just pays any fines with pleasure and ease"

Everyone doesn't care about anything when their team is winning but anything is everything when their team is losing.

The latest
According to Helmut Marko :The FIA confirmed that Red Bull didn't overspend on car development.

I read that Red Bull overspend for +/- 1000 free tasty meals/day at the factory .
As you know , food I'snt cheap either. But a well-filled stomach will always perform better !
That's why the RB18 is such a well performing car ...
OC . The free meals are sponsored by Red Bull as well ...

Enjoy your daily tasty free Red Bull meal !

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

But Merc didn’t cheat*, they out engineered and out competed the entire field for 7 years. I guess that has to hurt fans of other teams I guess, but cheating. No.

* as far as you know

Seriously, this is F1. I'm not condoning 'cheating', but if you're an F1 team and you're not bending the rules to the absolute limit (and sometimes stepping over, shhhhh don't tell anybody) you're at the back of the grid.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by Chihuahua

[COLOR="red"]*[/COLOR] [COLOR="Black"]as far as you know[/COLOR]

Seriously, this is F1. I'm not condoning 'cheating', but if you're an F1 team and you're not bending the rules to the absolute limit (and sometimes stepping over, shhhhh don't tell anybody) you're at the back of the grid.

Oh really? That's how it is? Could've fooled me with all the back/forth between RB/Mercedes fans.

You don't think limits were pushed and rules bent when Vettel was winning with Red Bull?

This is and will always be the case. It comes down to did your team do it better than the others. The answer is no for the last 8 years which is why some people are more salty than others.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by chaungo

Again.

FIA confirmed that noone overspent on car development.

RBR has not benefitted from overspending on car development or anything of the sort, they made a car that was good the first time, while most other teams did not. .

You have mentioned this before and I’ve read the FIA press release and all other F1 release since and they have said nothing of the sort. RBR are current being investigated for both procedural and cost breach, nothing more nothing less.

We have all read conjecture in the media but it’s not fact. Plus, when a business has a budget it’s a total. IT chooses where to spend the money, so if they decide to spend some of the money on free food that’s fine but it doesn’t come from fresh air it needs to be paid for.

The regs are clear on what is in or out even how much engine producers are allowed to spend. If you aren’t clear, you ask or in RBR case, put your head in the sand, spend then ask for forgiveness.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The latest
According to Helmut Marko :The FIA confirmed that Red Bull didn't overspend on car development.

I read that Red Bull overspend for +/- 1000 free tasty meals/day at the factory .
As you know , food I'snt cheap either. But a well-filled stomach will always perform better !
That's why the RB18 is such a well performing car ...
OC . The free meals are sponsored by Red Bull as well ...

Enjoy your daily tasty free Red Bull meal !

Not shot this is true.

If it is...lol.