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      08-07-2019, 05:53 PM   #23
percychow
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Subaru LOST my loyalty after my BRZ (stock) popped it's head gasket and the dealer refused to acknowledge the issue. And then I learned almost ALL of them will pop a head gasket. Glad to be back in a BMW.

Subaru has "loyalty" because it's trendy right now.
Remember when *EVERYONE* owned a Honda?
Eventually Subaru's quality will begin to unravel (like Honda) and people move on.
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      08-07-2019, 06:15 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
First I had to giggle at that first line. That's just marketing hype. SAWD is just a term Subaru made up for their own cars.
Not quite as subaru states that the engine lies symetrical on the same axes as the driveline.
With bmw this is not 100% the case, for at least their 4 and 6cyl engines.
Both those engines are slant engines at bmw and thus lean to 1 side to reduce overall height.
Also with bmw's x drive the front cv shafts are of different lenght (differs pretty much), and with subaru I think they're of equal length.
If any, subaru's sawd is mostly comparable to audi's quattro, with also having the engine completely in front of the front axle.
Only with subary thats a very low gravety engine (because 4cyl boxer) and a very short engine (because 4cyl boxer).
For audi that's never the case (can you imagine, a straight up standing inline 5 compared to the low slung short 4cyl boxer), thats why the subaru implementation is imho way better than audi's implementation and that for this kind of setup only 2 engines really are suited: a 4 cyl boxer and a wankel engine. The Wankel of course you'd have to be a die hard fan of to accept all of its............issues :+

Of course in the end there's more to it like what kind of diffs they use and how it all functions, but on those matters both companies use lots of variations.

BTW the above is written by someone who neither has subaru loyalty (never owned one) nor audi loyalty (never owned one) nor bmw loyalty (only owned one that I still have).
I just like to analyze technical implementations of car manufacturers
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      08-07-2019, 06:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ShocknAwe View Post

Transmissions are garbage. Awd bias is fwd. Engines are fragile and underspecced. And don't get me started on how big and heavy they are now. want.
The transmissions (auto any way) are bullet proof and have been since at least 2004.
Manuals have a bad rep..probably deserved.

Engines: The old EJ N/A engine was a dud no question. But if you got the HG's fixed they were bullet proof also. My granddaughter has my 2008 with 205K miles and no sign of failing. The EJ turbo engine is and always was a good engine. 310HP out of a 2.5L.

The FA engine introduced in 2012 has been voted to the top 10 in Wards Enges imported into the U.S. 3 times in 7 years. It stands head to head with Nissan's VQ six cylinder acknowledged my many as the best 6 cylinder engine ever produced. The Newer FB series 2.0 and 2.5 meh..average at best.
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      08-08-2019, 07:23 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
First I had to giggle at that first line. That's just marketing hype. SAWD is just a term Subaru made up for their own cars. .
Its not marketing.

To have symetrical AWD you must mount a boxer engine inline. Sure you could mount a straight engine inline but it wouldnt make sense.to long/too high. If you cut the drive train in half each side is a mirror copy of the other side. Its a beautiful engineering concept....expensive to make..no one else does it. That's why all vehicles compare their AWD against Subaru. They have been doing SAWD for 47 years. And the boxer engine for 53 years.

And I am not saying Subaru is the very best..the Quatro might be better. But its not Symetrical.

Last edited by adc100; 08-08-2019 at 08:28 PM..
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      08-08-2019, 09:48 PM   #27
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I think the only symmetrical-ness that anyone cares about is lateral and fore-aft. What would be the point to “vertical” symmetry? It would do nothing for power delivery/AWD-ness. Don’t tell me handling. You don’t put the engine in front of the front axle and then claim “handling”.

I’m a Subaru fan, but they are also immensely stubborn and are often the last to improve something or use the better JDM setup. The AWD on my wrx was not bad, the handling was severely handicapped by the front mounted engine. The Mercedes C series AWD I had was better for actual snow/ice, but the Subie was no slouch at it.

Hybrids and electrics will make this all moot, you’ll have your engine(if equipped) in a good location and then a couple electric motors to help out at the other two wheels. I predict this will be the predominant “AWD” setup soon.
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      08-08-2019, 10:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
I think the only symmetrical-ness that anyone cares about is lateral and fore-aft. What would be the point to “vertical” symmetry? It would do nothing for power delivery/AWD-ness. Don’t tell me handling. You don’t put the engine in front of the front axle and then claim “handling”.
^This.

It's marketing hype. I get that it's an 'actual' thing. I just doesn't mean much. Just like Dodge "Hemi" motors. Yes. They are Hemis, but so were 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipses.
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      08-09-2019, 05:15 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soterios View Post
^This.

It's marketing hype. I get that it's an 'actual' thing. I just doesn't mean much. Just like Dodge "Hemi" motors. Yes. They are Hemis, but so were 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipses.
And 1980's Ford Escorts...
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      08-09-2019, 07:57 AM   #30
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The OP is a good example of why Subaru has a big following in North America. The owners just assume it's AWD system it the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's a very basic design that works well but in reality there's probably 0.5% of the time it would ever have any advantage over say a Haldex style AWD system. There are much more sophisticated AWD systems out there are that superior when it comes to overall performance. Hell the old EVO X S-AWC system was far superior than any system Subaru has created as they have never made a true (using the brakes doesn't count) torque vectoring AWD system.

Also Subaru can't build a good engine. Whether it's ringland issues, bearing issues, oil consumption issues, they have simply never made a bulletproof engine that you could count on to last without issue. Their lineup is largely generic and generally don't age well especially on the inside as the interiors are always a generation behind everyone else. I've owned a GV STI and my wife is currently driving an Outback so I'm not talking out of my ass as I have been a longtime NASIOC member and know the brand very, very well. Subaru makes very average vehicles that come standard with AWD. They are generally good but never great and generally that's good enough for the masses as most consumers don't aspire for greatness out of their automobiles as if they did Toyota would go out of business. It also has to be noted that Subaru is only a player in Canada, USA, and Australia. They aren't competitive in Europe at all because Europeans have generally higher standards when it comes to automobiles and don't feel that AWD is a necessity like people in North America have been brainwashed to believe that you have to have AWD to drive in snow.
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      08-09-2019, 01:45 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
The OP is a good example of why Subaru has a big following in North America. The owners just assume it's AWD system it the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's a very basic design that works well but in reality there's probably 0.5% of the time it would ever have any advantage over say a Haldex style AWD system. There are much more sophisticated AWD systems out there are that superior when it comes to overall performance. Hell the old EVO X S-AWC system was far superior than any system Subaru has created as they have never made a true (using the brakes doesn't count) torque vectoring AWD system.

Also Subaru can't build a good engine. Whether it's ringland issues, bearing issues, oil consumption issues, they have simply never made a bulletproof engine that you could count on to last without issue. Their lineup is largely generic and generally don't age well especially on the inside as the interiors are always a generation behind everyone else. I've owned a GV STI and my wife is currently driving an Outback so I'm not talking out of my ass as I have been a longtime NASIOC member and know the brand very, very well. Subaru makes very average vehicles that come standard with AWD. They are generally good but never great and generally that's good enough for the masses as most consumers don't aspire for greatness out of their automobiles as if they did Toyota would go out of business. It also has to be noted that Subaru is only a player in Canada, USA, and Australia. They aren't competitive in Europe at all because Europeans have generally higher standards when it comes to automobiles and don't feel that AWD is a necessity like people in North America have been brainwashed to believe that you have to have AWD to drive in snow.
I can't prove your Haldex style AWD system is any better than Subaru's system. And neither can you Doesn't matter how you control the torqu. .. I know how good my xt is in the snow. I can. drive all day in 10 inch snow. Thats good enough for me.

As far as not being able to build a quality engine..As I have said the FA engine has won the best import engine 3 times in seven years. No one (including BMW has done that. The FB had an oil usage problem the first year it was out. It was a problem. Again I don't know what the Quality of the FB series is. The EJ turbo is as good an engine as anyone has ever built...that's not bs..its fact.

The EJ engine was an open deck engine that chewed up head gaskets. Subaru was criminal for allowing that to continue. Its right up there with the GM 2.4/2.6 Intake gasket leak. Subaru deserves all the critism for that engine. But once they went to MLS gaskets the problem went away. But even I can not defend that engine.
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      08-10-2019, 12:28 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
I can't prove your Haldex style AWD system is any better than Subaru's system. And neither can you Doesn't matter how you control the torqu. .. I know how good my xt is in the snow. I can. drive all day in 10 inch snow. Thats good enough for me.

As far as not being able to build a quality engine..As I have said the FA engine has won the best import engine 3 times in seven years. No one (including BMW has done that. The FB had an oil usage problem the first year it was out. It was a problem. Again I don't know what the Quality of the FB series is. The EJ turbo is as good an engine as anyone has ever built...that's not bs..its fact.

The EJ engine was an open deck engine that chewed up head gaskets. Subaru was criminal for allowing that to continue. Its right up there with the GM 2.4/2.6 Intake gasket leak. Subaru deserves all the critism for that engine. But once they went to MLS gaskets the problem went away. But even I can not defend that engine.
It was ridiculous that they were using the 4EAT for so long, especially putting it in the WRX and FXT.

It is ridiculous that they will not bring twin spool turbos or other technology into the WRX/STI to prevent them from being old-school rev-to-3K-before-power turbos.

It was ridiculous that they wouldn't put a 6-speed in the WRX for so long, so you'd have to be buzzing along at 60mph and 3200 rpm.

It was ridiculous that they put 205 section tires on the WRX for so many years.

It is ridiculous that the STI is still only 305hp.

It is ridiculous that the "hottest" legacy is 256hp or whatever.

Then there was the classic Subaru propaganda that their dealers pushed: "Don't look at HP, look at 0-60 times!". But of course a 5K clutch drop in an AWD turbo car would produce a good 0-60...until the transmission breaks.

Subaru is often the last to do anything cool, but they are a niche market with all models being AWD. This keeps them being a big seller in certain places and they have positioned themselves nicely for the geriatric crowd, with their safety devices. They've done some cool stuff, but they are far from an innovator and largely boring these days.
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      08-10-2019, 09:14 AM   #33
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It is ridiculous that the STI is still only 305hp..
Simple question. Why doesn't BMW build a boxer engine that would sit lower. Ferrari does it.
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      08-10-2019, 09:36 AM   #34
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Simple question. Why doesn't BMW build a boxer engine that would sit lower. Ferrari does it.
Well they do actually. But for BMW automobiles, they have engine production lines set to manufacture in-line engine blocks and V engine blocks, so building an assembly line to manufacture a flat engine for automotive applications would be cost prohibitive. Not sure what the lowest priced Ferrari is, but I know it's not near a $35K 1-series.

Honda was the only manufacturer that did build a flat motorcycle engine on the same production line as their V6 for the Accord, but that was 20+ years ago. The economics of automotive manufacturing has drastically changed since then.
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      08-10-2019, 09:41 AM   #35
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I owned a '78 GL wagon, a 2008, Forester and currently have a '18 Forester XT, and a a '19 Crosstrek. I am on the BMW board bc a friend was looking for a "High End" SUV. She drove them all. She would discuss them with me. And we both agreed the X3 was the one for her. In the proces I got on this forum.

Anyway on the Forester Board someone asked why Subaru had a high brand loyalty. Now I know Subaru has a great track record bc of safety and the symetrical AWD system is one of the best and can only be obtained by having a flat engine.

But that does not explain brand loyalty and It seems to me that BMW and Subaru have a large brand loyalty..Why is that?
I've owned a 76 GL, and currently own a 2018 Outback, and my 135. I really don't have brand loyalty to either. That being said, I would love to buy my younger twins a forester each for college, as I love the reliability of Subaru's, and the built in functionaliy and 4 wheel drive.
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      08-10-2019, 09:45 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
It was ridiculous that they were using the 4EAT for so long, especially putting it in the WRX and FXT.

It is ridiculous that they will not bring twin spool turbos or other technology into the WRX/STI to prevent them from being old-school rev-to-3K-before-power turbos.

It was ridiculous that they wouldn't put a 6-speed in the WRX for so long, so you'd have to be buzzing along at 60mph and 3200 rpm.

It was ridiculous that they put 205 section tires on the WRX for so many years.

It is ridiculous that the STI is still only 305hp.

It is ridiculous that the "hottest" legacy is 256hp or whatever.

Then there was the classic Subaru propaganda that their dealers pushed: "Don't look at HP, look at 0-60 times!". But of course a 5K clutch drop in an AWD turbo car would produce a good 0-60...until the transmission breaks.

Subaru is often the last to do anything cool, but they are a niche market with all models being AWD. This keeps them being a big seller in certain places and they have positioned themselves nicely for the geriatric crowd, with their safety devices. They've done some cool stuff, but they are far from an innovator and largely boring these days.
OMG! That was me as a senior in HS (but not in a Subaru). The shop said they had never seen a clutch abused like that. It was actually glowing red when I popped the hood to see why my car wouldn't "go".
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      08-10-2019, 09:48 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Simple question. Why doesn't BMW build a boxer engine that would sit lower. Ferrari does it.
What boxer engine does Ferrari build?

BMW most likely doesn't use this because the packaging limits putting it between the wheels, it's wider so it needs to be in front of the axle, which gives you the huge polar moment of inertia from a front-mounted engine. It's also prohibitive against using more than 4 cyl, since more would make the front engine stick out even more. Places where flat engines work is mid-engine, rear-engine and front-engine, because of the wheel-well limitations.
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      08-10-2019, 10:55 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
Now I know Subaru has a great track record bc of safety and the symetrical AWD system is one of the best and can only be obtained by having a flat engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
I can't prove your Haldex style AWD system is any better than Subaru's system. And neither can you Doesn't matter how you control the torqu. .. I know how good my xt is in the snow. I can. drive all day in 10 inch snow. Thats good enough for me.

As far as not being able to build a quality engine..As I have said the FA engine has won the best import engine 3 times in seven years. No one (including BMW has done that. The FB had an oil usage problem the first year it was out. It was a problem. Again I don't know what the Quality of the FB series is. The EJ turbo is as good an engine as anyone has ever built...that's not bs..its fact.

The EJ engine was an open deck engine that chewed up head gaskets. Subaru was criminal for allowing that to continue. Its right up there with the GM 2.4/2.6 Intake gasket leak. Subaru deserves all the critism for that engine. But once they went to MLS gaskets the problem went away. But even I can not defend that engine.
On one hand you are saying Subaru's AWD system is one of the best and on the other you are saying that nobody can prove a Haldex system is better. If you are saying we can't prove anything then what's the point of saying Subaru's system is amongst the best when you can't prove it? It matters a lot how an AWD system can distribute torque BTW.

The FA engine is nothing special at all lol and it has a well known issue with failing connecting rods when you tune the engine above stock levels. It's nowhere near as good an engine as the Honda K20C1 that even in lower power levels for the Accord provides considerable power. It's clear you are far too biased and cannot be reasoned with so I'm out of this thread.
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      08-10-2019, 11:00 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
What boxer engine does Ferrari build?

BMW most likely doesn't use this because the packaging limits putting it between the wheels, it's wider so it needs to be in front of the axle, which gives you the huge polar moment of inertia from a front-mounted engine.
100% true. Cars that have boxers in the front (like subaru) have them in front of the front axle/suspension components.
A 4cyl boxer is one of the best engines if you're going to put an engine there because its short and low, but if you want a 6 cyl, you're already stretching up that lenght. (and bmw of course love their sixes)


Putting a boxer inbetween the suspension is virtually impossible. Even alfa romeo, who went as small as 1,2L for their boxers, had to put them in front of the suspension struts.

Ferrari build some boxers in the past, like in the 512BB (Berlinetta Boxer). Of course they're all mid mounted, something BMW virtually doesn't do.

As for Haldex vs the more traditional 4wd: I think whats better, or better said good enough for what the vehicle is meant to do, also greatly depends on what type of differentials you use, and in modern days, how your software is programmed. For instance in scandinavia, where winters are of course also extremely hard, loads of 4wd volvo's drive around (all haldex since 15 years or so) and they seem to manage. Remember driving on public road is not like driving a wrc ralley stage. If you do that it might be different (although I think that nowadays every winner of a WRC ralley championship for the last 15 years drove a haldex equipped car so thats also something to think about)
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      08-10-2019, 11:00 AM   #40
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One more thing. Enjoy your Subaru now because when cars go electric Subaru will lose everything that separates them from other manufactures and they will be forced to sell vehicles on merit only not catchy slogans like "symmetrical AWD" which won't fly when they are using the same electric motors for the front and back as everyone else. They had a really good run this last decade but it's the golden age for Subaru.
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      08-11-2019, 08:58 PM   #41
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Well dont hold your breath of ev's. I am 73 and I'll enjoy my '18XT and '19 XV for my driving career.

One good thing for the rest of vehicles (including BMW) it will be easier for them to make an electric motor that sits low enough and is symettrical so you won't have torque steer as is in almost every american vehicle and most foreign brands. Does BMW have unequal fron't axle lengths? I honestly don't know.

I assume you know thats why all FWD (except subaru) suck at handling. They can't justify having a boxer mounted inline/lower with equal axle lengths. Much cheaper to mount an inline engine transverse and then they can have a FWD and add AWD which is good enough for American JoeSixpacks who wouldnt know good handling if it ran over them. . I am sure if BMW decided to make a boxer and do it right like subaru you'd sing its praises.

Last edited by adc100; 08-12-2019 at 07:00 AM..
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      08-12-2019, 07:43 AM   #42
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I assume you know thats why all FWD (except subaru) suck at handling.
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      08-12-2019, 09:22 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
One more thing. Enjoy your Subaru now because when cars go electric Subaru will lose everything that separates them from other manufactures and they will be forced to sell vehicles on merit only not catchy slogans like "symmetrical AWD" which won't fly when they are using the same electric motors for the front and back as everyone else. They had a really good run this last decade but it's the golden age for Subaru.
That's a bit naive, Subaru is investing in automatic driving technology and safety features. I think their secondary niche or the one just as powerful as their "AWD" is the general "safety features". They tend to do very well with crash tests and I tend to think of them as a "lower-cost" Volvo. As long as they keep the development and progress in this area, they'll have a niche and market most likely. Something like a Forester is kind of the new old-person car, where they would have bought an old land-yacht 20 years ago, now they can be more upright, see more, have some of the auto-driving features, etc.
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      08-12-2019, 09:32 AM   #44
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Engineer what you want, but even an STI with the silly torque dial set all the way to the back still understeers more than my GTI. Sloppy handling cars, but I suppose they're symmetrically sloppy.
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