Ferguson, MS: Wilson vs Brown

[ragingclue]

Ok so I need to break this down Barney-style? I can do that.

Your comparison was shit. You obviously never paid attention in eighth grade when they were trying to teach you how important it was that every scientific comparison have as many controlled inputs as possible. Then at some point somebody would have reiterated that in Chem, Phys, Calc, multiple levels of each....

At some point you would have run into somebody who was relatively smart who would have educated you as soon as they saw you struggle over simple concepts like this... right? Or no? Are you from Mars? How the fuck did you miss all this?

I think the cop in Garner's case should have been indicted although I'm not sure what the trial would have led to.... I don't know enough for sure. And you asked the general question before your post tagging everybody crying out for attention.

Get over yourself you fuck. It's not like I've never been in here, I just left when it went to shit.

[Devious21]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

No, and let's call everything straight up as it is, enough of this beating around the bush.

If I say "he was shot to death", most reasonable people will not think, he must be referring to a stun gun. They're going to think a firearm, pistol, shotgun, etc...

Now, since we're all going by the book on all of these cases and cited actual medical records, we have to be consistent and cite that his actual cause of death was due to stun guns.

I have no proof that stun guns killed or nor do I have proof that he was on an extreme drug overdose and was on his way out anyways, it simply doesn't matter.

What I'm getting at is why was this suspect not shot and killed or choked to death for being equal to or 10X more of a threat than the case of Mr. Brown and Mr. Garner? Is it because of his skin color?

Can you answer that?

Only the cop could answer that, all we can do is speculate.

Although, you are taking two entirely different situations and trying to determine the difference of a single factor. That's pretty much the exact opposite of how a scientific experiment is done. There is no control.

Let's speculate that although he was swinging, at no point did the officers fear for their lives and THAT'S why they didn't shoot him. Why did they not fear for their lives? Maybe because they almost had him pinned and arrested once before and they didn't feel any weapons on him before he got up. Maybe because he seemed mentally ill. Maybe him pulling a weapon wasn't a concern to them because of however they assessed the situation. If at any time he stopped swinging and started digging through his pockets, I bet one of those tasers would turn into a gun real quick.

Remember, Brown assaulted the officer in his car, reached for his gun and told him he was going to fucking kill him. These are not comparable situations. People also don't understand all minor things that you perceive in a situation. Body language, surroundings, how things are said - dozens of factors go into how you assess a situation, many of them subconsciously. Many people take all of this for granted and then just focus on skin color because that's what's currently blinding the entire nation.

[Devious21]

I think it's much more likely that police have to do a violent job and deal with violent people on a consistent basis. And I think some officers make poor decisions because they're human. Combine that with the fact that there are racist people out there that look at any white cop and think any action he performs is racist.

When I look at this video below, I don't think "Well he probably hit him because he's black"... I think "there's a cop who lost his fucking shit and did something wrong". But if the cop were white, all we'd hear would be "it was because the suspect was black" even though WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO JUSTIFY THAT CLAIM. You can hate a person for thousands of reasons that have nothing to do with skin color. Maybe he arrests this guy everyday. Maybe he made him run. Maybe he didn't like being disrespected. Maybe he just hated him as a person.

When you claim to know someone is racist, you are claiming to know what's in their mind. We all need to constantly strive to stay objective when evaluating their actions. If the same action could be done by a non-racist then you need more proof.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

So ALL of you guys are going to act like you didn't see this video clip?

Every single argument for not indicting Eric Garner holds no weight.

Here we have:

1. A man that resist arrest
2. Is aggressively attacking police officers with his hands
3. Is unpredictable
4. Could be reaching for cops guns (common argument used)

What the cops did not do:

1. Choke him
2. Shoot him to death

I'm curious if Eric Garner did the exact same things in this video, what would have happened? My guess is an instant unload of clips and a statement from cops saying we feared for our lives

Really? This is supposed to prove your case that no responsibility for Garner's death is on Garner's hands? I believe Garner's method of resisting is far more intimidating and worrisome to police than this idiot's method. On one hand, the suspect is telling cops that "it ends today! don't touch me!" while sounding aggressive in tone and with gestures. The other a guy complies before resisting which likely gave cops a false sense of relief.

Which situation would you rather walk into? (not that you'll answer, seeing as you didn't answer my last question)

1) Get called to an intersection for an unknown person is behaving weirdly. You get there and the suspect seem lucid and begins to obey your commands.....

2) Get called to an intersection for a suspect who is a known repeat offender, 6'3" and 350#s. When you get there, the suspect is acting agitated and telling you enough is enough, and how it all ends today. When you give him commands he begins repeating the same things about how it ends today and you better not touch him.....

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

There you have it folks, America is fucking screwed.


A Grand Jury Did Indict One Person Involved In Eric Garner's Killing -- The Man Who Filmed It

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/1...n_6264746.html

You think America is screwed up because by coincidence, the man filming another man resisting arrest was indicted by a GJ on completely separate illegal actions? Am i reading that right?

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

I'm really confused now. If I wanted to advance your position, this clip is not what I would use.

The parallels to Eric Garner are numerous, including the outcome to the suspect, and the lack of repercussion for the cops.

Crazy unpredictable suspect chooses to not act in his own best interest and ends up stone cold dead as a result of the police response (guy died later in hospital after being shot with stun gun, and physically restrained by multiple officers).

None of those officers where indicted either. In this case, the expired perp is the same race as the officers, so you cant say that using force to subdue a nutjob who cannot follow simple commands is the exclusive domain of a racist.

Yet another example of video proof that it's a really dumb idea to physically fight the law in that manner, instead of taking them to court later, where you at least have a chance of walking out with a pulse.

You missed one other stark difference between theses cases. The one where the guy was shot with a tasers multiple times didn't make national news. And nobody cares about it because a guy died who was resisting arrest. Maybe if they didn't use tasers, and use a choke hold for 15 seconds people might flip out.

Originally Posted by Billup

What you fail to understand is the situational differences between the two. With your video, I think the cops were WAAYYYY too nice to that guy. They should have gotten him in a choke hold too.

I hardly believe any cop would have "unloaded a clip" into the guy. They would have subdued him in the exact same manner. These cops chose the "TASER" route, and look at how far it got them? Seriously?

Had they gotten him in a hold and took him to the ground, that whole fiasco could have ended sooner, and who knows, a white guy could have been dead.

You're correct with situational differences changing every encounter.

The Phoenix PD has different training, procedures, and policy than NYC cops.
Phoenix PD were called in due to a patron acing "weird".
NYC cops were called in about a guy with 30+ prior arrests and they KNEW he was a huge guy. So they brought friends.
The guy in the restaurant started to comply and thus didn't require a take down.
Phoenix cops relied on technology to subdue the perp rather than physical force, and if failed. Yet the perp died anyway.
_________________________________________

The general public would have a much nicer time in life if they stopped applying absolutes to every situation in life. There is no 1 way to subdue an arrest resisting suspect safely. In contrast, just about every detail in an given situation can drastically change an officers approach. Weather, lighting, footing, bystanders, property, clothing, location, time of day, available back up, size, weight, height, tools available, prior police interactions, prior record, level of aggression when resisting, etc... Any one of those items could change a PO's method of subduing a suspect.

[Devious21]

Originally Posted by Devious21

People also don't understand all minor things that you perceive in a situation. Body language, surroundings, how things are said - dozens of factors go into how you assess a situation, many of them subconsciously. Many people take all of this for granted and then just focus on skin color because that's what's currently blinding the entire nation.

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

In contrast, just about every detail in an given situation can drastically change an officers approach. Weather, lighting, footing, bystanders, property, clothing, location, time of day, available back up, size, weight, height, tools available, prior police interactions, prior record, level of aggression when resisting, etc... Any one of those items could change a PO's method of subduing a suspect.

+1'd for explaining this better than I did

[Uber V8]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

The suggestion that his death at the hospital a short time later was unrelated to the actions of the officers is absurd. C'mon man... really?

He was "showing signs of medical distress" at the scene, just like Garner did. I suppose the sudden-onset medical distress was unrelated to the cops actions too ?

Bottom line is that both suspects acted foolishly, both ended up dead as a result of the actions the cops were forced to make, and cops were not indicted in either case.

And I'd bet (but you probably not agree) that in both cases, the officers did not want to see the suspect dead. They used up their limited deployment of taser "zaps" (which cannot be discharged dozens of times in a row like a regular gun, you cant retract the cord, slap in a new battery and shoot again like swapping magazines of bullets)

So, with no other non-lethal force available, they waited until other cops arrived, and dog-piled on the guy to physically subdue him, just like the NYPD did. If the NYPD didnt have the sheer manpower advantage they did, the incident may have dragged out longer, and while the result would still be the same (Garner dead), it may not have appeared as though they were putting up with as much resistance as the Phoenix cops did.

But, I guess if you are determined to see race in something, you'll see it, whether it's there or not.

My focus is not what was the actual cause of his death (the white guy) in this case and I stated that earlier.

My focus, once again is the methods used based on the severity or level of threat imposed on police officers from the suspect. Why is it that in three different cases involving black men as the suspect, they are shot (by a gun) or choked to death within seconds, but in this case with the white man, he is allowed to punch and kick and resist arrest with no immediate shots fired or any at all?


Let me put it to you like this:

Are you more likely to die by:

A. a real gun
B. a stun gun

[Uber V8]

Originally Posted by ragingclue

Ok so I need to break this down Barney-style? I can do that.

Your comparison was shit. You obviously never paid attention in eighth grade when they were trying to teach you how important it was that every scientific comparison have as many controlled inputs as possible. Then at some point somebody would have reiterated that in Chem, Phys, Calc, multiple levels of each....

At some point you would have run into somebody who was relatively smart who would have educated you as soon as they saw you struggle over simple concepts like this... right? Or no? Are you from Mars? How the fuck did you miss all this?

I think the cop in Garner's case should have been indicted although I'm not sure what the trial would have led to.... I don't know enough for sure. And you asked the general question before your post tagging everybody crying out for attention.

Get over yourself you fuck. It's not like I've never been in here, I just left when it went to shit.

Once again, you're spending more time taking jabs at me than breaking it down "Barney style". I'm honestly looking to see your answer to my question when I was crying for attention from the clip now that you've joined in.

I can at least agree with you last statement about Garner's case, but man enough with the insults.

At least the foundation of your argument has moved on from you calling yourself a dick.

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

Really? This is supposed to prove your case that no responsibility for Garner's death is on Garner's hands? I believe Garner's method of resisting is far more intimidating and worrisome to police than this idiot's method. On one hand, the suspect is telling cops that "it ends today! don't touch me!" while sounding aggressive in tone and with gestures. The other a guy complies before resisting which likely gave cops a false sense of relief.

Which situation would you rather walk into? (not that you'll answer, seeing as you didn't answer my last question)

Holy shit. I'm going to have to end on that note. Saying don't touch me with your hands up is far more intimidating and worrisome than a man that is attacking the police? Come. The. Fuck. On.

That's all I needed to hear. Thanks

I must have missed your last question because I'm the only one addressing all of you so my apologies. I'll look it up tomorrow when I'm back at work. I'm off work in 10 mins, so your other question about traffic lights or something was a very bad example and isn't worthy of an answer because of the statement from you that I highlighted earlier.

[Devious21]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

My focus is not what was the actual cause of his death (the white guy) in this case and I stated that earlier.

My focus, once again is the methods used based on the severity or level of threat imposed on police officers from the suspect. Why is it that in three different cases involving black men as the suspect, they are shot (by a gun) or choked to death within seconds, but in this case with the white man, he is allowed to punch and kick and resist arrest with no immediate shots fired or any at all?


Let me put it to you like this:

Are you more likely to die by:

A. a real gun
B. a stun gun

You're clearly reaching for a reason related to race when in reality, these are a small sampling of incidents that we choose to focus on.

There are plenty of incidents of white criminals dying to police and police brutality against white people. The difference is we (as a society) aren't looking for that. Either we don't care or the media thinks we don't care.

Too many people have race as a shortcut to emotion so it's the fastest path to sell tabloid.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

My focus is not what was the actual cause of his death (the white guy) in this case and I stated that earlier.

My focus, once again is the methods used based on the severity or level of threat imposed on police officers from the suspect. Why is it that in three different cases involving black men as the suspect, they are shot (by a gun) or choked to death within seconds, but in this case with the white man, he is allowed to punch and kick and resist arrest with no immediate shots fired or any at all?


Let me put it to you like this:

Are you more likely to die by:

A. a real gun
B. a stun gun

Dude. I like you a lot, I think you're a smart man with good morals, but come on. It doesn't matter that this case was caught with white cops on a black male! I've had ten cops on me when I did nothing wrong! I've been pinned to the ground without resisting. The only reason this is portrayed is because it was a white officer with a black male with an unfortunate occurance!

For fucks sake man, watch an episode of Cops. This isn't new shit going down. People are unpredictable no matter what race or gender for that matter. I've seen a white crack head chick stab a cop after being tazed. Didn't make the news. She was white and he was white. Why not? Where's the riot?

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

My focus is not what was the actual cause of his death (the white guy) in this case and I stated that earlier.

My focus, once again is the methods used based on the severity or level of threat imposed on police officers from the suspect. Why is it that in three different cases involving black men as the suspect, they are shot (by a gun) or choked to death within seconds, but in this case with the white man, he is allowed to punch and kick and resist arrest with no immediate shots fired or any at all?


Let me put it to you like this:

Are you more likely to die by:

A. a real gun
B. a stun gun

When you keep saying this, most everything else you are saying is discounted. The man was in a choke hold for 15 seconds. Then release, hand cuffed. He was lucid and coherent the whole time. How does a man who was choked to death remain alive for several minutes after he was in a choke hold for 15 seconds.

We get that you're emotional about these things, but when you use generalizations and exaggerations your argument loses credibility. He was NOT choked to death, certainly not in seconds.

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

Holy shit. I'm going to have to end on that note. Saying don't touch me with your hands up is far more intimidating and worrisome than a man that is attacking the police? Come. The. Fuck. On.

That's all I needed to hear. Thanks

I must have missed your last question because I'm the only one addressing all of you so my apologies. I'll look it up tomorrow when I'm back at work. I'm off work in 10 mins, so your other question about traffic lights or something was a very bad example and isn't worthy of an answer because of the statement from you that I highlighted earlier.

He didn't say don't touch me with his hands up, he appeared agitated with his hand gestures, he seems absolute with his statement that it ends today, he's known for prior arrests, and he's 350.

The man attacking the police first complied with officer commands. Then began resisting and was immediacy tased. He was in-between the 2 cops (which is another reason no guns were drawn) and hitting like a girl. He wasn't even using closed fists. But while one officer was defending girlish blows, he could see his partner whipping out anther taser round and assumed it was a matter of milliseconds before the suspect dropped like a dead fish.

The way you're analyzing these situations is from a very basic perspective. As if every portion of each incident were identical save for one factor. It's not as black and white as that, despite the fact that some people are hell bent on making it out to be.

I don't recall stating anything or asking any questions about stop lights....

This is what i was referring to. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=338

[UncleWede]

I'm diabetic and white. At the time I was well muscled and youthful. My blood sugar crashed so hard my dad was trying to do chest compressions while I was bouncing on the bed. Fire and PD arrived about the same time. As they put me on a gurney it hurt my lower back. All I wanted to do was roll over. 4 firemen each took hold of an arm/leg while the 2 PD tried to cuff me to the gurney SURE I was on PCP

The next day in the hospital the Dr looks at my blood tests and says "Damn you put up a fight". From the blood test results

Tasters didn't exist at the time and if my dad wasn't there to threaten a law suit, I might not be typing this today

I was totally out of control and non-compliant. I would not have blamed officers if they either choked me out or shot me

[Myrder]

Excited delirium is a condition that manifests as a combination of delirium, psychomotor agitation, anxiety, hallucinations, speech disturbances, disorientation, violent and bizarre behavior, insensitivity to pain, elevated body temperature, and superhuman strength.[1][2] Excited delirium is sometimes called excited delirium syndrome if it results in sudden death (usually via cardiac or respiratory arrest), an outcome that is sometimes associated with the use of physical control measures, including police restraint.[1][2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excited_delirium

If you watch the video the Phx guy was clearly having a lot of issues prior to attacking the police.
I see @FwdFtl point of view. He is clearly talking about the escalation of violence in each of the cases.

I think most are upset it was decided the officer in the Garner case should not even go to trial, that's all that happened, they decided this wasn't worth a trial, even after video evidence. Now it brings the question up, will having cops record their days with vest cams even matter? Because those will offer a more limited view than having a 3rd person angle of the entire situation.

[UncleWede]

There is no doubt in my mind this officer should not have a badge any longer

Even Gardners own mother said she doesn't think it was racially motivated. How much more tension can we rightfully avoid?

Now her over dramatization "they left my boy to die on that hot pavement" drives me freaking crazy. He was tackled on a sidewalk. Once restrained he was put on a gurney and into an ambulance. They didn't leave him anywhere.

[Uber V8]

I've taken my stance on these issues (albeit an unpopular one) and we've all shared our ideas about it. I can debate this and refute everything you guys say for endless hours, but I have to ask myself what is the point.

I have viewed these issues from as many perspectives as possible, but I still have to hold my ground.

I hope I didn't offend any of you during this discussion because anytime you talk about stuff like this, I know it can get personal. Regardless of our difference of beliefs, I still have love for you guys and I'll see you in the next discussion.

*drops mic*


EDIT: I see quite a few comments deleted, hmmm...

[F1Venom]

I just watched the Garner video again and I'm still fuming that the cop is not going to be punished. And the worst are the knee jerk conservatives who are siding with the law again, when clearly it should not be the case right now.
This is a case of excessive force, and there should have been a manslaughter charge against the cop. The cops escalated it and the big guy begging for his life is heartbreaking.


Keep in mind I'm a die hard conservative who always supported Officer Wilson because his was a self-defense case, but this garner incident is sickening.

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by Myrder

I think most are upset it was decided the officer in the Garner case should not even go to trial, that's all that happened, they decided this wasn't worth a trial, even after video evidence. Now it brings the question up, will having cops record their days with vest cams even matter? Because those will offer a more limited view than having a 3rd person angle of the entire situation.

I think the body cams will matter, definitely. There was no video provided with the Wilson/Brown situation but a body cam sure would have cleared some things up, right? I think only good can come of it. At the very least it would allow us to have something substantial to look at for all these times where all the 3rd party cellphones magically didn't record any video.

I would have expected a trial in the Garner case although I wonder how damaging it is that the coroner listed other factors in his death. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure I know enough to say one way or another. One thing I am sure of though is that a lot of people seem to be losing their minds just to lose their minds. I saw a few interviews from people in Chicago protesting last night and some people really have their heads on straight. The opportunists and ignorant are just out there screaming the same old shit full of misinformation.

I really wish CNN would get checked for how they're deliberately throwing gas on a race fire in a case where race was irrelevant (although the issue of profiling/discrimination separately is a very valid one, and some of the interviewed protestors made that clear, those are the good ones). Anybody who argues things would have been different in the Garner case had he been a giant and belligerent white guy resisting with 30 priors loses me right then and there. I don't need to hear anything else. This was a case of brutality or excessive force, I wish people would just leave the race card at the door when talking about what happened to Garner.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by F1Venom

I just watched the Garner video again and I'm still fuming that the cop is not going to be punished. And the worst are the knee jerk conservatives who are siding with the law again, when clearly it should not be the case right now.
This is a case of excessive force, and there should have been a manslaughter charge against the cop. The cops escalated it and the big guy begging for his life is heartbreaking.


Keep in mind I'm a die hard conservative who always supported Officer Wilson because his was a self-defense case, but this garner incident is sickening.

THANK YOU!!!

[pgviper]

Originally Posted by F1Venom

I just watched the Garner video again and I'm still fuming that the cop is not going to be punished. And the worst are the knee jerk conservatives who are siding with the law again, when clearly it should not be the case right now.
This is a case of excessive force, and there should have been a manslaughter charge against the cop. The cops escalated it and the big guy begging for his life is heartbreaking.


Keep in mind I'm a die hard conservative who always supported Officer Wilson because his was a self-defense case, but this garner incident is sickening.

I agree with everything you said.

I think some people in this thread have gotten caught up upon the "why" factor of the situation. Why did it happen... why was Garner approached... why was Garner on the street corner... That's all fine but really has nothing to do with his death. The excessive use of force is what we should all be debating. I've wrestled with friends and put them into choke holds but I know that as soon as they tap I need to let go because it only takes a couple seconds, no matter how big a person is, to cause a problem with their breathing when you have a tight grip around someones neck. Once Garner was on the ground, there was no need for the choke hold to continue like it did. There was also no need for the officer to roll with Garner while maintaining the choke hold. To me, the real question is...

Is it the NYPD's fault for having a poorly trained and hot headed officer on the street or is it the officers fault for not following his training and protocol?

[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Is it the NYPD's fault for having a poorly trained and hot headed officer on the street or is it the officers fault for not following his training and protocol?

Well it can't all be pinned on NYPD considering he was kinda using a variation of a technique that they were trained specifically not to use.... I'd say he should have known better.

[F1Venom]

Please keep in mind that this case wasn't about race. Of course Sharpton, Obama and the other race baiters will make it out to be black vs white, but don't fall for it.

[F1Venom]

The scary thing is that in America, can you now be killed for the prettiest crime or breaking of the law? Imagine the cops show up to your house late at night because of an overdue library book. They demand $25, you say that's ridiculous, then they throw you on the ground and put you in a chokehold that kills you. Gestapo, anyone?

[nagisak31]

Originally Posted by pgviper

I agree with everything you said.

I think some people in this thread have gotten caught up upon the "why" factor of the situation. Why did it happen... why was Garner approached... why was Garner on the street corner... That's all fine but really has nothing to do with his death. The excessive use of force is what we should all be debating. I've wrestled with friends and put them into choke holds but I know that as soon as they tap I need to let go because it only takes a couple seconds, no matter how big a person is, to cause a problem with their breathing when you have a tight grip around someones neck. Once Garner was on the ground, there was no need for the choke hold to continue like it did. There was also no need for the officer to roll with Garner while maintaining the choke hold. To me, the real question is...

Is it the NYPD's fault for having a poorly trained and hot headed officer on the street or is it the officers fault for not following his training and protocol?

Woah wait up... According to some of the tough guys here, they are way too badass to be knocked out or inadvertently killed in a chokehold...