Ferguson, MS: Wilson vs Brown

[davis449]

I'm not a huge fan of Fox News, but I love what they did last night in NY. They had a guy in the crowd asking questions of the protestors about the Michael Brown case and the shear disregard for the facts in the case coming from these protesters was just jaw dropping. Their responses when confronted by that interviewer with facts from the GJ findings were just an absolute awesome display of ignorance and mob mentality.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Sara504

***Ive been choked in play fights as a kid with my siblings and its extremely hard to breathe and you feel as if you are going to pass out while being in a choke hold. You can still use whatever energy you have to call out for help but its very limited and time sensitive. The officer was given that warning multiple times yet still continued to use an illegal move resulting in the death of a human. Murder.

Before the officer was even put into the position to put his arms around his neck, wasn't Garner warned multiple times to put his hands behind his back? Not doing so is illegal. Had he done so, he would not have been tackled and would never have been put into that "hold". Garner should have known this... he had been arrested over 30 times prior to this. That's not a typo.

It's also not an *illegal* move. It was banned by the department but is not illegal. His job could be in jeopardy for not following protocol but Garner's actions are the root cause for his death. As I said before, there is no delicate way to arrest a giant man who does not want to be arrested. It's ALWAYS ugly.

Also mentioned in the autopsy report were contributing factors including bronchial asthma, heart disease, obesity, and hypertensive cardiovascular disease.

[m3ray]

Originally Posted by Sara504

I cant believe that. He should have been indicted. The fucking man said he couldnt breathe!! We all know when you cant breathe you will die. I have no sympathy for Michael Brown but I do for Eric Garner.

This is on the cover of every NY newspaper this morning. The only criteria for indictment is probable cause. There is boat loads of probable cause here. The federal justice dept. is now picking up the investigation. My guess is this cop isn't going to skate for this.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Before the officer was even put into the position to put his arms around his neck, wasn't Garner warned multiple times to put his hands behind his back? Not doing so is illegal. Had he done so, he would not have been tackled and would never have been put into that "hold". Garner should have known this... he had been arrested over 30 times prior to this. That's not a typo.

It's also not an *illegal* move. It was banned by the department but is not illegal. His job could be in jeopardy for not following protocol but Garner's actions are the root cause for his death. As I said before, there is no delicate way to arrest a giant man who does not want to be arrested. It's ALWAYS ugly.

Also mentioned in the autopsy report were contributing factors including bronchial asthma, heart disease, obesity, and hypertensive cardiovascular disease.

You can restrain someone WITHOUT fatally limiting their oxygen levels. Garners action were not the cause of his death. Not being able to breathe caused his death. That's just like saying if I dont wear a seat belt that's why I'll die when SOMEONE ELSE crashing their car into mine head on.

[F1Venom]

Originally Posted by michaelthepsycho

Yes, yes it does. Look up all three definitions of the word moot. Neither one of them means pointless. In fact, it means the exact opposite of what most people think it means.

*Barf-in-my-mouth pet peeve of mine. I don't get why educated people use this word in such an egregiously incorrect manner.

Moot as an adjective can also mean "irrelevant."

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Sara504

You can restrain someone WITHOUT fatally limiting their oxygen levels. Garners action were not the cause of his death. Not being able to breathe caused his death. That's just like saying if I dont wear a seat belt that's why I'll die when SOMEONE ELSE crashing their car into mine head on.

Yes, it's exactly the same thing. You would survive wearing a seatbelt in exactly the same way he would have had he just put his hands behind his back. It's called personal responsibility. If someone runs at a cop with a gun in their hand, did the cop kill them or did they kill themselves? I firmly believe it's the latter. You know what the repercussions are of such actions and are therefore personally responsible for the outcome.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by F1Venom

Moot as an adjective can also mean "irrelevant."

Thank you. I thought I was losing my mind. If there's one thing I can't stand more is people correcting other people when they are themselves wrong. Unforgivable.

[Billup]

Originally Posted by F1Venom

Moot as an adjective can also mean "irrelevant."

You make a very moot point.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Billup

You make a very moot point.

Not to me. He restored my sanity..

[Sara]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Yes, it's exactly the same thing. You would survive wearing a seatbelt in exactly the same way he would have had he just put his hands behind his back. It's called personal responsibility. If someone runs at a cop with a gun in their hand, did the cop kill them or did they kill themselves? I firmly believe it's the latter. You know what the repercussions are of such actions and are therefore personally responsible for the outcome.

You tell me, when does his humanitarian right kicks in?

We let people who murder people live because they claim insanity but yet we kill people who say they cant breathe and are not a severe threat to society. Wow. Just wow.

[Myrder]

Broke up a fight or not, he was accused of selling loose cigarettes... I can't imagine why 4 police officers would feel the need to arrest a man for making $2. I've seen cops turn the other way on way worse crimes. Hell I've seen someone run a red in front of a cop, and the cop did nothing. Just last night a cop was doing around 100mph down a residential street with no sirens or lights on.

This man died over individual cigarettes. WTF.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by Myrder

Broke up a fight or not, he was accused of selling loose cigarettes... I can't imagine why 4 police officers would feel the need to arrest a man for making $2. I've seen cops turn the other way on way worse crimes. Hell I've seen someone run a red in front of a cop, and the cop did nothing. Just last night a cop was doing around 100mph down a residential street with no sirens or lights on.

This man died over individual cigarettes. WTF.

Yet murders are alive because they plea insanity. Its bullshit.

[grimlock]

Originally Posted by Sara504

You tell me, when does his humanitarian right kicks in?

We let people who murder people live because they claim insanity but yet we kill people who say they cant breathe and are not a severe threat to society. Wow. Just wow.

His rights always existed.
He was only "killed" accidently as a result of the proceedures of society.. the officer who did it probably wasn't a nice guy and he might have harbored sadistic/prejudiced tendencies but according to the law it was not "illegal"... that's just the way it is

Racism, is a different discussion, which alot of people are just conflating the two.. like everytime something bad happens to a black person at hands of a white person it is automatical perceived as due to race. This is not to deny underlying, persistent prejudice, but that is a matter of the individual.. as it pertains to the individuals in societal operation - that's what is hard to separate the flesh and blood individual from his job in accordance to law.
(assumption of the individual's right to harbor prejudices, opinions, and preferences - ie. you cannot police a person's thoughts, whether they like or dislike another individual or groups)

[KingOfJericho]

His death was a tragic accident from every angle, however I do think that he holds more responsibility for not initially complying which is what led to a series of unfortunate events that culminated in his accidental death.

The cops I saw in the video were trying to arrest a huge guy who had no intention of going peacefully. I don't see a guy trying to kill another guy. I just don't see it.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Myrder

Broke up a fight or not, he was accused of selling loose cigarettes... I can't imagine why 4 police officers would feel the need to arrest a man for making $2. I've seen cops turn the other way on way worse crimes. Hell I've seen someone run a red in front of a cop, and the cop did nothing. Just last night a cop was doing around 100mph down a residential street with no sirens or lights on.

This man died over individual cigarettes. WTF.

He died because he did not comply with the orders of a police officer, putting them in a position where they had to forcibly take him into custody.

[P1]

Originally Posted by Myrder

Broke up a fight or not, he was accused of selling loose cigarettes... I can't imagine why 4 police officers would feel the need to arrest a man for making $2. I've seen cops turn the other way on way worse crimes. Hell I've seen someone run a red in front of a cop, and the cop did nothing. Just last night a cop was doing around 100mph down a residential street with no sirens or lights on.

This man died over individual cigarettes. WTF.

NYC passed stronger penalties back in January for the illegal selling of untaxed cigarettes, and the Chief of Department had been calling for crackdowns on loosie sales. That's why the cops could not turn a blind eye and had to arrest him.

[Myrder]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

His death was a tragic accident from every angle, however I do think that he holds more responsibility for not initially complying which is what led to a series of unfortunate events that culminated in his accidental death.

The cops I saw in the video were trying to arrest a huge guy who had no intention of going peacefully. I don't see a guy trying to kill another guy. I just don't see it.

They carry tasers for a reason, fuck that punk bitch jumping on his back to do a choke-hold like that.


Quote from NYPD guidelines : "Depending upon the circumstances, both federal and state laws provide for criminal sanctions and civil liability against uniformed members of the service, when force is deemed excessive, wrongful or improperly applied."

The NYPD guidelines state, very clearly: "Members of the New York City Police Department will NOT use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air."

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Myrder

They carry tasers for a reason, fuck that punk bitch jumping on his back to do a choke-hold like that.


Quote from NYPD guidelines : "Depending upon the circumstances, both federal and state laws provide for criminal sanctions and civil liability against uniformed members of the service, when force is deemed excessive, wrongful or improperly applied."

The NYPD guidelines state, very clearly: "Members of the New York City Police Department will NOT use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air."

They don't ALL carry tasers...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/23/ny...sers.html?_r=0

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Myrder

They carry tasers for a reason, fuck that punk bitch jumping on his back to do a choke-hold like that.


Quote from NYPD guidelines : "Depending upon the circumstances, both federal and state laws provide for criminal sanctions and civil liability against uniformed members of the service, when force is deemed excessive, wrongful or improperly applied."

The NYPD guidelines state, very clearly: "Members of the New York City Police Department will NOT use chokeholds. A chokehold shall include, but is not limited to, any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air."

Are you aware that hundreds of people have died over the last decade from being tasered? Wouldn't you be in here saying "couldn't they just tackle him???" if he died after being tasered? It's never pretty when the police have to forcibly take in a perp, especially a very large one.

He did not follow protocol and could certainly be fired for that.

[Sara]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

He died because he did not comply with the orders of a police officer, putting them in a position where they had to forcibly take him into custody.

He died because he couldnt breathe!!

[Sara]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Are you aware that hundreds of people have died over the last decade from being tasered? Wouldn't you be in here saying "couldn't they just tackle him???" if he died after being tasered? It's never pretty when the police have to forcibly take in a perp, especially a very large one.

He did not follow protocol and could certainly be fired for that.

It would have to take an awful lot to die from a taser. I survived being electrocuted by volts meant to restrain something more than 12 times my body weight. Sure I passed out, but I survived.

[ASAP]

So here is my take-

Guy was selling cigs and died... no matter what ensued in the midst of that, that is the story. On the Brown / Martin case, I sided with the 5-0... in this case absolutely not.

The US cops do indeed have a terrible overpowerment mentality, nowhere else in this world does this exist. The punishment for certain low rent crimes such as selling cigarettes, talking back to a cop or getting pulled over for speedind is and could be far too high. In other nations, the punishments we have for those types of crimes would be considerd laughable. In this case, my first paragraph sums the story up... the other 2 commited a real crime, this guy did not... and it is things of this nature that give the US an extremely poor name worldwide. Sure the guy resisted but for what sort of crime... and that IMHO is the major issue. Thats all I will say on this.