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      02-10-2023, 12:49 PM   #7437
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
What do the non-sworn contributors to this thread think about law enforcement's involvement in mental health issues or crimes perpetuated by people with mental health issues?
It's a no win situation for LEOs in most instances. Anytime force (deadly or not) has to be used on someone with mental health issues people are going to be upset. But the chances of this being the case on one of these calls I am assuming is more often than not. From my understanding there is different amounts and types of training to help with these situations but I also can see that when you are dealing with people in a mental health crisis there is no reasoning or negotiating with them sometimes. They are not thinking logically and when that is the case what can you do if it involves a threat to themselves, you, or the public? Obviously certain officers/departments handle these situations better than others but I sympathize with anyone who deals with them. There was a case near me in Detroit not too long ago that involved exactly what you bring up.
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      02-10-2023, 01:25 PM   #7438
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I think this is such a difficult one. I worked as a psychiatrist for the VA. If someone tells me they have PTSD then I cannot prove otherwise. So if they read me a textbook definition. They have got it as far as I am concerned. People can even fake symptoms. When I first started out.. things were difficult. Asylums. There was a mentally ill patient who spoke about how mental health should not be used as an excuse to commit felonies. When things got heavy on the ward.. and the nurses could not cope.. they usually ended up calling the police. Eventually guards were employed in-house. So I look at this many ways.. as uncle has said.. the Police can protect the public..

Looking at whether officers should receive training.. again it is a tough one because there is so much to remember.. and no one gets it perfect.. is this person on drugs.. did someone trigger them.. are they acting out.. but I agree with the general views that once Police have removed the person from the situation and taken them to a safer environment.. it is down to mental health services to get involved... there is no way of knowing whether they are being exploited.. someone decided to stitch them up.. they are in an abusive relationship etc.

Yes, force can upset some people.. and they might not know why it has been used or had to be used.. the experts can only try to explain. Body cam footage is a must for these situations as is an oppo.. if you have your partner with you at the scene.. then at least someone can vouch that you were reasonable in force.

Some forces are trialling having a mental health expert at the scene but so far it has not gone well.. because that expert literally needs to make a speedy decision on what the LEO should do.. well I guess it all boils down to who carries the hand grenade of responsibility... in that case it would be the SME that was employed to advise the LEO's.

Having said all that.. and been to court alongside attorneys to give evidence that someone is mentally ill or not ill... history is always taken into consideration i.e., the person was ill and in and out of hospital... recreational use of narcotics.. and isolated incidents are tougher to challenge. A few cases of early psychosis in some teenagers but not much.

So many nuances..
At the end of the day.. the LEO's job is like a soldiers... it is to preserve and protect life. Period. Whether that means restraining someone about to lunge at another with an inanimate object then so be it.
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      02-10-2023, 03:25 PM   #7439
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Originally Posted by Dang3r View Post
Im coming over to Cali this summer for a weak, San Diego area, any significant road law changes for tourists to know?
SAN Sheriff's are pretty laid back and forgiving, Escondido Police, not so much. Watch out for "no turn on red" signs as they are few and can catch you off guard. Stay under 9 over (and don't stand-out) and you should be OK... EXCEPT in school zones and on residential streets. Kids can and WILL come out of nowhere (I hit one once as he blasted out from between two parked cars; fortunately I saw him soon enough, and was going slow enough, that I barely tapped him as I stopped)! Traffic can be a bear, so just be patient. DO NOT have your phone in your hand while talking or text while driving. "Distracted" driving is a real thing here. "California stops" will draw the attention of law enforcement.

Can't think of anything else off the top of my head...
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      02-10-2023, 03:31 PM   #7440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul_Glo View Post
...
At the end of the day.. the LEO's job is like a soldiers... it is to preserve and protect life. Period. ..
Not according to SCOTUS.

https://prospect.org/justice/police-...ct-the-public/

https://www.alternet.org/2022/06/sup...ct-individuals

Quote:
In 2005, in Castle Rock v. Gonzalez, the Supreme Court relied on this precedent when it ruled that police have no duty to protect (or arrest or intervene) even when there is a protective order in place or a law mandating arrest if the abuser violates the order.
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/l...o-protect-you/

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In the 1981 case Warren v. District of Columbia, the D.C. Court of Appeals held that police have a general "public duty," but that "no specific legal duty exists" unless there is a special relationship between an officer and an individual, such as a person in custody.

The U.S. Supreme Court has also ruled that police have no specific obligation to protect. In its 1989 decision in DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, the justices ruled that a social services department had no duty to protect a young boy from his abusive father. In 2005'sCastle Rock v. Gonzales, a woman sued the police for failing to protect her from her husband after he violated a restraining order and abducted and killed their three children. Justices said the police had no such duty.

Most recently, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit upheld a lower court ruling that police could not be held liable for failing to protect students in the 2018 shooting that claimed 17 lives at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida.
There's more.
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      02-10-2023, 03:34 PM   #7441
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Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc View Post
There's more.
We need better laws.
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      02-10-2023, 03:37 PM   #7442
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Originally Posted by Soul_Glo View Post
We need better laws.
Making someone else responsible for one's safety is a very dangerous, slippery slope.
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      02-10-2023, 03:47 PM   #7443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezaircon4jc View Post
Making someone else responsible for one's safety is a very dangerous, slippery slope.
By enforcing law an officer is protecting others by default. Even if itís not referred to as that. Like in contract law. There are express terms and implied terms. A duty of care can be defined in many ways. Officers should not be hung, strung, and quartered, for failing to exercise protection. It really is about the hand granade of responsibility. Certainly not right to penalize an officer who was unable to disarm a perp etc.

Of course the courts donít want to be inundated with cases of how the officer didnít discharge duty properly. It would be the stuff of kangaroo courts and millions in compensation. So itís easier to not reference the reality directly of how they do serve and protect. Some lawyer somewhere will find a loophole and so the game continues.
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      02-10-2023, 07:54 PM   #7444
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
So what would you have us do when a call for service is placed regarding a family member who is being aggressive or violent.....and that family member has diagnosed or undiagnosed mental health issues? I ask this question to stimulate a little bit of conversation about the topic because despite the fact I agree with you about us not being psychologists (..although we do receive some training), we are tasked with dealing with these people multiple times a day. We don't have the liberty of just refusing to show up or showing up and doing nothing.
I feel for officers when they respond to domestic or mental break calls. Nothing fun about that. As someone who was subjected to severe pain and meds for an extended time in a hospital and had a psychotic break I get it how hard it is to handle this stuff. I am not a bad person but at the time I was convinced they were trying to kill me.

I am only a normal size and over 60 and yet had I resisted with the strength of that mental break the hospital orderlies would have had to use serious force to control me. Luckily deep inside I guess there was still a part of me that knew the people around me weren't really trying to kill me and roast me. So I never forced hands on restraint.

I got no answer to your question. I think police have a role in responding to mentally ill violent people. Who else? Restraints are obviously the answer. And sadly if someone is in that state AND armed (even "just" a knife) you may have to use deadly force. Not a happy outcome but better than 3 dead civilians and one cop hesitant to use their firearm when a lunatic approaches inside the safe distance of a person with a knife.

I think there is no perfect answer unless we want to invest in lots of special units trained and equipped to handle specifically mentally ill people.
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      02-10-2023, 11:10 PM   #7445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesinaz View Post
I feel for officers when they respond to domestic or mental break calls. Nothing fun about that. As someone who was subjected to severe pain and meds for an extended time in a hospital and had a psychotic break I get it how hard it is to handle this stuff. I am not a bad person but at the time I was convinced they were trying to kill me.

I am only a normal size and over 60 and yet had I resisted with the strength of that mental break the hospital orderlies would have had to use serious force to control me. Luckily deep inside I guess there was still a part of me that knew the people around me weren't really trying to kill me and roast me. So I never forced hands on restraint.

I got no answer to your question. I think police have a role in responding to mentally ill violent people. Who else? Restraints are obviously the answer. And sadly if someone is in that state AND armed (even "just" a knife) you may have to use deadly force. Not a happy outcome but better than 3 dead civilians and one cop hesitant to use their firearm when a lunatic approaches inside the safe distance of a person with a knife.

I think there is no perfect answer unless we want to invest in lots of special units trained and equipped to handle specifically mentally ill people.
Thank you for this post and for sharing some of your personal experiences and struggles. I feel like we learned something significant about you that helps us fully understand your perspective. Much appreciated......and I'm glad that things are seemingly much better for you now than they were for you then.

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      02-10-2023, 11:36 PM   #7446
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Thank you for this post and for sharing some of your personal experiences and struggles. I feel like we learned something significant about you that helps us fully understand your perspective. Much appreciated......and I'm glad that things are seemingly much better for you now than they were for you then.

Thanks. After 3 months in hospital the doctor told my wife I'd be OK to come home in a day or two. She looked at him like "he's fucking nuts dude". They sent me to a physical rehab place since I was too weak to walk after 3 months on my back without eating. The mental issues cleared after one night away from the hospital with a closed door and no beeping or interruptions. No drugs and real sleep cured me.

I would suggest to anyone with a loved in on the hospital that reports seeing things to take it seriously. it is very real to them. I believe it is common for people whose kidney is an issue (and all my organs had shut down including the kidney which took the longest to come back online).
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      02-13-2023, 04:48 AM   #7447
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
When you hit SoCal, let’s try to coordinate a lunch get-together with the other Bimmerpost members in the area.

Yeah, that'll be great, lets get in touch to this when the time will coming closer.
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      02-13-2023, 01:54 PM   #7448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
When you hit SoCal, letís try to coordinate a lunch get-together with the other Bimmerpost members in the area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dang3r View Post
Yeah, that'll be great, lets get in touch to this when the time will coming closer.
I'm in!! As long as it's not a Sunday...
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      02-15-2023, 05:49 AM   #7449
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Have yíall dealt with many domestic violence cases?

What would be your advice for someone trapped who has been threatened? For example, the partner said: ďIf you leave me then I will kill myself.Ē

Helping a friend build an escape plan from his abusive partner. He has been financially controlled, isolated from his family, and attacked a few times by her.

This has gone on for many years and he opened up about his unhappiness for the first time the other day.

At the moment I have told him to keep the car tank full and facing the exit of his driveway. Also to try and remove important documents from the home.
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      02-15-2023, 03:47 PM   #7450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul_Glo View Post
Have y’all dealt with many domestic violence cases?
Domestic violence cases are an every day occurrence in the field. On average, we probably respond to AT LEAST five domestic violence calls a day between romantic partners, and I’m not even including the domestic cases involving family members.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul_Glo View Post
What would be your advice for someone trapped who has been threatened? For example, the partner said: “If you leave me then I will kill myself.”
That is a manipulative approach and it’s all about controlling the other person regardless of whether or not there’s true intent behind the threat. At some point he’s going to have to make the hard decision to leave for his own mental and emotional health.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul_Glo View Post
Helping a friend build an escape plan from his abusive partner. He has been financially controlled, isolated from his family, and attacked a few times by her.
There is no “escape plan”…..and there’s no easy way out. It will be a “rip off the band-aid” moment. It will get worse before it gets better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul_Glo View Post
This has gone on for many years and he opened up about his unhappiness for the first time the other day.
See my above responses. It will remain cyclical until he’s ready to make a hard decision. I don’t mean this to sound callous, but her mental health is not his concern at this point (…if he values his own quality of life).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul_Glo View Post
At the moment I have told him to keep the car tank full and facing the exit of his driveway. Also to try and remove important documents from the home.
The document suggestion was smart advice, but he needs to be thinking about the financial ramifications, etc. as well. They are married, so it isn’t as simple as two unmarried people separating. He needs to start building a safety net.

P.S. He needs to get to a place where he can manage the potential guilt he might experience should she make good on her threats when/if he leaves. Like I said, this will get worse before it gets better................unfortunately.

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 02-15-2023 at 06:33 PM..
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      02-15-2023, 08:10 PM   #7451
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Speaking of domestic violence calls/cases between romantic partners, hereís the third call in the last two hours:
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      02-18-2023, 09:19 AM   #7452
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Sorry officer, could not help you.

I stopped at the very front, on the red light.
There were cars on the left and the right side of me.
The police car with siren came behind my car.

I am sorry officer, unless one of you came out from your car and stopped all the cars from other directions, I could not help you out.
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      02-18-2023, 06:01 PM   #7453
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Originally Posted by tom2021 View Post
I stopped at the very front, on the red light.
There were cars on the left and the right side of me.
The police car with siren came behind my car.

I am sorry officer, unless one of you came out from your car and stopped all the cars from other directions, I could not help you out.
Is this a question or scenario you want a response to?!?!?
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      02-22-2023, 04:14 PM   #7454
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^ yes
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      02-22-2023, 05:34 PM   #7455
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^ yes
We would go around. I donít think any officer/deputy expects a car to pull into traffic. Imagine the lawsuit should that person get involved in a collision and get injured/killed.
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      02-23-2023, 01:56 PM   #7456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
Is this a question or scenario you want a response to?!?!?
I was saying yes to your first question, not answering what this person should do. Sorry for messing up your valuable thread
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      02-23-2023, 06:59 PM   #7457
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I was saying yes to your first question, not answering what this person should do. Sorry for messing up your valuable thread
Don't be silly Wedeman. You're all good!
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      02-23-2023, 07:00 PM   #7458
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