new csl?

[jworms]

Originally Posted by footie

swamp2,

I know Steved will understand why I am saying what I am said and you have to remember that I am talking about UK roads and not the normal roads you have in the States. The M3 is a much more thrilling car to drive but I know it's limits are more unpredictable than that of the S5 reasons being awd is more approachable in this respect. I know it's hard to understand this but while the S5 is only as quick as a 335i on the track it will totally destroy it on a tight and twistie road in much the same way as the M3 will.

Ask Steved the same question and I reckon he will probably agree with me on this.

you sound like a smart kid, but i tend to think you don't have much track/twisty road experience. if you did you'd know that weight is a huge factor on a tight course which would give the S5 a huge disadvantage over the 335 and M3. go look at scca autox classes and show me where the heavy cars are classed. you'll notice that weight is a huge role in classification.

but since you put all this faith into steved we can wait for his response to your post, i expect steved to agree though.

btw i take offense with your comment about american twisty roads not being as good as european ones. we have our fair share of very nice canyon roads.

[footie]

Originally Posted by jworms

you sound like a smart kid, but i tend to think you don't have much track/twisty road experience. if you did you'd know that weight is a huge factor on a tight course which would give the S5 a huge disadvantage over the 335 and M3. go look at scca autox classes and show me where the heavy cars are classed. you'll notice that weight is a huge role in classification.

but since you put all this faith into steved we can wait for his response to your post, i expect steved to agree though.

btw i take offense with your comment about american twisty roads not being as good as european ones. we have our fair share of very nice canyon roads.

I won't bore you with my driving experience as I don't want to sound like a smart arse.

You think the 335i will be quicker on a twistie road than the S5, that's fine by me, we will agree to disagree on this one.

You talk about the S5 being worse because of it's huge weight disadvantage , I'm a bit confused on that one as the European spec from each manufacturer states that there is only a 30Kgs advantage in favour of the 335i which by my reckoning isn't that huge at all. Secondly you might assume that it's nose heaviness will play a major role in stopping it corner well, yet (I hate to use figures) it's lateral grip is 0.92g compared to an E92 M3 which is only 0.01g better and both I might add are better than the 335i can manage. So it looks like it can go round corner then, now combine this with is great traction out of the corner because of it's quattro system and it's greater torque over a the lower rev range (compared to an M3) and you might start to understand why I am saying that it will be as quick as an M3 on a tight and twistie road.

By the way, at no point did I say which would be having to most fun or which would I prefer to be driving.

P.S.

Unless the guy in the S5 is a complete dick I don't recommend you try it in your 335i if that's what you are driving as I wouldn't want you to look bad in front of your girlfriend/wife/mate.

[jworms]

Originally Posted by footie

I won't bore you with my driving experience as I don't want to sound like a smart arse.

You think the 335i will be quicker on a twistie road than the S5, that's fine by me, we will agree to disagree on this one.

You talk about the S5 being worse because of it's huge weight disadvantage , I'm a bit confused on that one as the European spec from each manufacturer states that there is only a 30Kgs advantage in favour of the 335i which by my reckoning isn't that huge at all. Secondly you might assume that it's nose heaviness will play a major role in stopping it corner well, yet (I hate to use figures) it's lateral grip is 0.92g compared to an E92 M3 which is only 0.01g better and both I might add are better than the 335i can manage. So it looks like it can go round corner then, now combine this with is great traction out of the corner because of it's quattro system and it's greater torque over a the lower rev range (compared to an M3) and you might start to understand why I am saying that it will be as quick as an M3 on a tight and twistie road.

By the way, at no point did I say which would be having to most fun or which would I prefer to be driving.

P.S.

Unless the guy in the S5 is a complete dick I don't recommend you try it in your 335i if that's what you are driving as I wouldn't want you to look bad in front of your girlfriend/wife/mate.

alright let me start this off by saying i was completely off in what i thought the S5 weighed. i just checked it on the audi website and they say 3593lbs for it, though i was pretty certain i read somewhere that it was close to 4000lbs...my mistake. that definitely changes things a bit and my argument is pretty much nullified.

the torque will give the S5 an edge...then again, the m3 might actually have more torque due to gearing multiplication which would render that advantage of the S5's meaningless.

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I am only an uniformed, couch/magazine racer anyway. All the math and logic holds no value whatsoever compared to seat time. I have not driven an S5 so I know this makes my reasoning 100% invalid...

Have you been reading along with the plethora of M3 tests that absolutely rave about how easy the car is to drive fast? Similar comments exist about its amazing ability to get montrous traction in all conditions. In one test vs. the RS4 the reviewer commented that the M3 hooked up better coming out of tight corners than the RS4, despite the Quattro AWD. The M was found to almost magically find the traction. The M settings for the DSC really makes folks look and drive like a hero in this car as well. All of this yet the car is still said to be challenging, rewarding and responds more and more the harder it is pushed. There is sort of a fine line between easy to drive and trivial to drive. Seems like the M3 and GT-R as well are going for the "easy", could Audi be going for the "trivial".

Either way my opinion stands. Any twisty road, US or UK and the M3 is going to punish the S5.

Don't worry Swamp I have driven the S5 and there is zero doubt that the M3 will pull away from it in the twisties despite Footie's claims. It's still a great car, but in terms of raw performance, even in the hands of a crappy driver like myself the M3 will still be faster.

-Adam

[footie]

Originally Posted by jworms

alright let me start this off by saying i was completely off in what i thought the S5 weighed. i just checked it on the audi website and they say 3593lbs for it, though i was pretty certain i read somewhere that it was close to 4000lbs...my mistake. that definitely changes things a bit and my argument is pretty much nullified.

the torque will give the S5 an edge...then again, the m3 might actually have more torque due to gearing multiplication which would render that advantage of the S5's meaningless.

Now we understand ourselves and you now see that the S5 isn't the heavy beast you thought it was we can carry the debate on a little and I can try and sway you into my way of thinking.

Do you agree that the Quattro system gives the S5 a slight advantage out of the corners, if so then we can go forward with the next reason why I reckon the S5 will keep up with the M3.

I have driven most forms of drive systems, be it fwd, rwd and awd and without exception awd cars are by much the easiest to drive close to and at the limits, because of this in most occasions with normal drivers involved the S5 will be easier for such a driver to use most of it's abilities, unlike the M3 driver who though his car has higher limits won't be able to use them as easily and will be no faster than the S5.

The same thing applies to the GTR and the Zonda, the Zonda might be quicker but it's harder to drive nearer it's limits unlike the GTR and because of this the GTR will be all over it on a tight twistie road.

That's the bare facts of the thing.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Let's not bring the 335i into this. The only reason I mentioned it was to show how close the performance was with the S5 having 54 more horses against it.

The M3 has about the same power advantage over the S5 as the S5 has over the 335i and the S5 only beats the 335i by tenths of a second. You seriously think it will pull on an M3. Oh please.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by footie

Do you agree that the Quattro system gives the S5 a slight advantage out of the corners, if so then we can go forward with the next reason why I reckon the S5 will keep up with the M3.

Now you are changing what you said earlier. Keeping up and pulling away is 2 totally different things.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by jworms

alright let me start this off by saying i was completely off in what i thought the S5 weighed. i just checked it on the audi website and they say 3593lbs for it, though i was pretty certain i read somewhere that it was close to 4000lbs...my mistake.

You are NOT wrong. The Audi weights are not to the same standard as BMW. This comes up time and time again.

Audi are quoting UNLADEN weights, whereas BMW quote EU1 DIN standard, which includes 75% fuel and driver as well.

The 335i weighs 1,615kg (including driver and 75% fuel)
The S5 weighs 1,630kg UNLADEN.

If you compared it on a level playing field with the 335i it would weigh over 1,700kg!

The S5 is both LONGER, and significantly WIDER than the 335i, and it has
4WD. It is visually bigger too, and the design only emphasises it's size. It looks like it's based on the A6 chasis, and not a shared platform with the new A4.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

Don't worry Swamp I have driven the S5 and there is zero doubt that the M3 will pull away from it in the twisties despite Footie's claims. It's still a great car, but in terms of raw performance, even in the hands of a crappy driver like myself the M3 will still be faster.

-Adam

This applies to both swamp2 and Smoltz,

I know the M3 is an amazingly good car and agree that it's easier to drive fast than almost all other rwd cars but from experience no car is as easy to drive quickly as an Audi (which is part of it's problem) and I know how quick it can cover ground. I don't doubt in the hands of an experienced driver the M3 will when the battle quite easily but as most people aren't skilled drivers the facts still stand that on most occasions the S5 will match the M3 on these types of roads.

I suppose I knew this type of statement would be received with such comments and to most here I would sound stupid, but I know what I know and I stand by what I said.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by footie

Now we understand ourselves and you now see that the S5 isn't the heavy beast you thought it was we can carry the debate on a little and I can try and sway you into my way of thinking.

I'm afraid it is a heavy beast. See my post above.

[footie]

Originally Posted by K3N R3D

Now you are changing what you said earlier. Keeping up and pulling away is 2 totally different things.

I was saying 'keeping up' with the M3 and 'pulling away' from the 335i.

Not changing what I was saying at all, please re-read my comments.

[Smoltz]

Originally Posted by footie

This applies to both swamp2 and Smoltz,

I know the M3 is an amazingly good car and agree that it's easier to drive fast than almost all other rwd cars but from experience no car is as easy to drive quickly as an Audi (which is part of it's problem) and I know how quick it can cover ground. I don't doubt in the hands of an experienced driver the M3 will when the battle quite easily but as most people aren't skilled drivers the facts still stand that on most occasions the S5 will match the M3 on these types of roads.

I suppose I knew this type of statement would be received with such comments and to most here I would sound stupid, but I know what I know and I stand by what I said.

If the horsepower were the same I might be inclined to not argue despite the fact that my personal findings (having owned an R32, B6 S4, and an M3) lead me to believe that the M3 is faster (compared with a B6 S4) under nearly all circumstances even with a poor driver like myself.

Unfortunatley, the horsepower is not the same, and the S5 weighs more and not only does it weigh more, but the US one weighs more than the euro spec one due to standard equipment.

I have also driven the S5 and the E46 back to back, and there is ZERO doubt in my mind that the E46 can keep up with the S5 (I am being conservative here), and despite some of the negativity surrounding the E92, no one claims its slower than the outgoing car.

-Adam

[footie]

Originally Posted by mofomat

I'm afraid it is a heavy beast. See my post above.

There is much debate on other sites as to whether you statement is correct about Audi's figures. Some well informed people believe/know there are indeed the same as BMW's.

But even if they are not, at most that puts the S5 85kgs more which is still only 5% more. Not that huge when you consider it has an extra 16% more power to counter that.

[phoenixbmwlife]

I'd like to correct my post above about the S5 beating the 335i. I know Fifth Gear is mostly for entertainment, but in this video it was the other way around. The 335i beat the S5 on the track and all through the course they were neck and neck. Now you can argue about good drivers vs normal drivers all you want. With any car a better driver can beat you with less power than yours. But on a level playing field, there is no way the S5 will pull on an M3. That's just rediculous to even think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHj0zbhjLZI

[footie]

Originally Posted by Smoltz

If the horsepower were the same I might be inclined to not argue despite the fact that my personal findings (having owned an R32, B6 S4, and an M3) lead me to believe that the M3 is faster under nearly all circumstances even with a poor driver like myself.

Unfortunatley, the horsepower is not the same, and the S5 weighs more and not only does it weigh more, but the US one weighs more than the euro spec one due to standard equipment.

I have also driven the S5 and the E46 back to back, and there is ZERO doubt in my mind that the E46 can keep up with the S5 (I am being conservative here), and despite some of the negativity surrounding the E92, no one claims its slower than the outgoing car.

-Adam

Oh well, clearly I stand corrected. Sorry for all of my ranting, will go and hide under a stone again.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by footie

There is much debate on other sites as to whether you statement is correct about Audi's figures. Some well informed people believe/know there are indeed the same as BMW's.

But even if they are not, at most that puts the S5 85kgs more which is still only 5% more. Not that huge when you consider it has an extra 16% more power to counter that.

First of all, whoever is debating the Audi figures are seriously misguided. Audi quote UNLADEN weights. Simple as that! Look at the RS4. According to Audi the RS4 is 1650kg. EVO tested it and found it to weigh nearly as much as the BMW M6, which according to BMW's official figures weighs 1785kg.


And no, it doesn't put the S5 at 85kg more. That would just about cover the weight of the driver. What about the 75% full fuel tank?

By no means am I entering the debate about whether the S5 would be faster than an M3 point to point. I'm merely saying that if you think the S5 and 335i weigh roughly the same then you are living in the home for the terminally bewildered.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by footie

I was saying 'keeping up' with the M3 and 'pulling away' from the 335i.

Not changing what I was saying at all, please re-read my comments.

No you said pull away from the M3 here then changed it to keeping up with it. Go back and read your own post. I'm not trying to give you a hard time but you can't change your argument after realizing your mistakes. Just own up to it. Here is your original post (SEE BOLD AND UNDERLINED TEXT BELOW)

Originally Posted by footie

As a fellow Quattro driver you will know that weight and awd are two things which kill brakes and melt tyres. Though I am surprised considering the brand and size of brakes involved that fade ever became an issue.

Even though this might have been a development mule, the fact that Nissan let him loose in it leads me to believe that the car was all but the finished article.

P.S.

You comments on the S5 compared to the RS4 is something I would agree with but would have been brave enough to say on this on this site especially as I reckon I would have been laughed at. The thing I noticed about the two (s5 and RS4) is that they both seem to corner as quick as each other, though I felt more confident in the RS4 to lean on it in the corners. As a car the S5 is a really quick car which I doubt even the M3 will pull awayfrom on back roads such is it's easiness to drive fast and the way it's limits are so easy to approach and control.

Some after such a statement might think why change to the M3 but as you will already know about the S5 is that it's so efficient that going quickly isn't much different than driving to the shops, where as the M3 on every journey will be an adventure.

[jworms]

Originally Posted by mofomat

First of all, whoever is debating the Audi figures are seriously misguided. Audi quote UNLADEN weights. Simple as that! Look at the RS4. According to Audi the RS4 is 1650kg. EVO tested it and found it to weigh nearly as much as the BMW M6, which according to BMW's official figures weighs 1785kg.


And no, it doesn't put the S5 at 85kg more. That would just about cover the weight of the driver. What about the 75% full fuel tank?

By no means am I entering the debate about whether the S5 would be faster than an M3 point to point. I'm merely saying that if you think the S5 and 335i weigh roughly the same then you are living in the home for the terminally bewildered.

ahhh ok, i was thinking that was way too light for an audi

taking into account my recent enlightenment on the S5's weight i stand by my previous argument. btw, i too have driven fwd, rwd, and awd cars.

[footie]

Originally Posted by K3N R3D

I'd like to correct my post above about the S5 beating the 335i. I know Fifth Gear is mostly for entertainment, but in this video it was the other way around. The 335i beat the S5 on the track and all through the course they were neck and neck. Now you can argue about good drivers vs normal drivers all you want. With any car a better driver can beat you with less power than yours. But on a level playing field, there is no way the S5 will pull on an M3. That's just rediculous to even think so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHj0zbhjLZI

You really do need to read my posts more closely mate.

Originally Posted by footie

I know it's hard to understand this but while the S5 is only as quick as a 335i on the track it will totally destroy it on a tight and twistie road in much the same way as the M3 will.

Originally Posted by footie

As a car the S5 is a really quick car which I doubt even the M3 will pull away from on back roads

If someone mistakes this statement as I meant the S5 will pull away from the M3 then I reckon English lesson are required.

Now as to prove what I say is indeed correct in that the S5 is in a different class on the road to the 335i I present some comments from a roadtest back to back of the S5 vs 335i.

Originally Posted by Autocar

But on the tight, Alpine passes north of Verona, the S5 comprehensively blitzes the 335i on A-to-B pace. We’re talking of a difference that would equate to several seconds a stage mile here.

The BMW has all the dynamic nudges and winks you’d expect to find. There’s nicely weighted steering, decent amounts of grip and an exploitable, neutral handling balance that allows the throttle pedal a reasonable influence on cornering line. But try to keep up with the S5 and it’s clear the BMW’s delicacy of touch isn’t winning you anything more than a growing gap.

The Audi feels nimble and more agile than the 3-series, turning into corners with far more enthusiasm and delivering near-perfect traction out of slower corners. Not that raw pace is everything, of course, and when it comes to finesse the Audi’s case wanes.

As for the difference between unladed and DIN, it is well known that the actual difference is 75kgs total and this is the case for every car. The figure of driver plus fuel is only a figure of speech, nothing more.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Ok you're right I took what you said the wrong way. I mean it basically means the same thing but as you stated it it doesn't mean you said the S5 will pull away from the M3, but anyway forget that.

Let me ask you this. How can you really doubt the M3 can pull away from an S5??? Especially after knowing how close the performance is to a 335i.

[footie]

It's only close on the track where the limits of each car is easier to approach in safety, on the road where hedges, walls, trees etc are ever present then I know that the car which makes you more comfortable to approach these limits will mean it will be quick in these occasions as the S5 will be compared to the 335i and I reckon will be closer to that of the M3.

Like I said it what I personally think, i have no hard evidence to prove it will be the case other than my experience of driving lots of different cars on numerous occasions.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by footie

It's only close on the track where the limits of each car is easier to approach in safety, on the road where hedges, walls, trees etc are ever present then I know that the car which makes you more comfortable to approach these limits will mean it will be quick in these occasions as the S5 will be compared to the 335i and I reckon will be closer to that of the M3.

Like I said it what I personally think, i have no hard evidence to prove it will be the case other than my experience of driving lots of different cars on numerous occasions.

Well in norman conditions or track conditions, I still don't see the M3 having a hard time pulling on an S5 in any gear equal to the S5. We'll just have to agree to disagree.