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      09-10-2021, 12:37 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by ntg44 View Post
That's a hard pill to swallow if true. I was hoping mid 50s with a fully loaded car at like... 62k. 61K start is too close to M3 money.
That's 2000s (20 years ago) BMW twin-turbo-6 prices you are thinking about at 50K. 335/340s are effectively right up there with the Lexus.

M3 territory? Start at about 80K realistically for a decently equipped non-awd/non-comp model.

These are real 2021 prices.
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      09-10-2021, 12:46 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
That's 2000s (20 years ago) BMW twin-turbo-6 prices you are thinking about at 50K. 335/340s are effectively right up there with the Lexus.

M3 territory? Start at about 80K realistically for a decently equipped non-awd/non-comp model.

These are real 2021 prices.
I understand what you're saying, but it's still beyond what I'm comfortable paying. 4 years ago I got my 2017 M3 for 62k before taxes brand new. I'm sure as hell not going to pay the same or more for the IS500. 4 years is not that long ago.
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      09-10-2021, 12:54 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by jmack View Post
That's a pretty hard sell over a M340i at that price. You're trading off a lot of tech and dynamics just for V8 sound.
Not necessarily just the V8 sound. Business case for the IS500:
  • Rock solid Lexus reliability
  • Superior Lexus service dealership experience
  • Not a track car but more than sufficient power (472hp) for spirited driving on public roads
  • Luxurious smooth ride for comfort cruising & daily driver
  • Normally aspirated V8 car will hold its value vs. the sea of turbo engine competitors

Lexus has specified the competitors are the likes of M340, C43, S4, etc., (i.e., not the M3) and in this crowd, the IS500 has its niche and business case.
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      09-10-2021, 01:26 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by ntg44 View Post
I understand what you're saying, but it's still beyond what I'm comfortable paying. 4 years ago I got my 2017 M3 for 62k before taxes brand new. I'm sure as hell not going to pay the same or more for the IS500. 4 years is not that long ago.
The US MSRP for the base 2017 F80 was $64K and $71K for the Competition model. Unlike the Germans, the IS historically came pretty well loaded, so add a few options or packages and you're easily over $70K for the base and pushing $80K or above for the Competition. Assuming you don't have a base model with no options, you must have gotten a good discount at $62K for your 2017 M3.

I understand you have a budget, but if the 2022 IS500 with base price of $56K is too much, then I guess so are its competitors like the 2022 M340 is out of range too, and you have to go down market.
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      09-10-2021, 01:45 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post
The US MSRP for the base 2017 F80 was $64K and $71K for the Competition model. Unlike the Germans, the IS historically came pretty well loaded, so add a few options or packages and you're easily over $70K for the base and pushing $80K or above for the Competition. Assuming you don't have a base model with no options, you must have gotten a good discount at $62K for your 2017 M3.

I understand you have a budget, but if the 2022 IS500 with base price of $56K is too much, then I guess so are its competitors like the 2022 M340 is out of range too, and you have to go down market.
I'm okay with 56k to start. The discussion was about a 61k MSRP, which I'm less okay with. Of course if it actually is 56k, my whole chain of posts is irrelevant and we can just disregard my last few posts

My 2017 M3 came with dual zone climate control, navigation, heated seats, upgraded HK speakers, and Bluetooth streaming. Which was plenty for me. Not that I use many tech features to begin with. But it was enough to justify a base M3 versus a fully loaded 340i at the time at 59k. I was actually about to get a 340 until my salesman convinced to jump to the M3. I felt it had everything I needed to enjoy the car, and I did. The F80 was a performance bargain in stripper spec.
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      09-10-2021, 01:59 PM   #270
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62k isn't all that bad if its loaded.

I mean yeah you can get a G80 for 60s... but thats basically a poverty spec car with nothing. Even my F80 with the LED lighting, executive pack, hk sound, adaptive suspension, and 19s was 72k. Thats about as bare bones as i'd want an f80... that kinda stuff should be standard.

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      09-10-2021, 04:05 PM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmack View Post
That's a pretty hard sell over a M340i at that price. You're trading off a lot of tech and dynamics just for V8 sound.
Just curious what tech is the IS500 missing that is in the M340i, C43, and S4?

I think the starting price at $56,500 is just right for this segment. Yes at first glance the interior may seem dated but it comes equipped competitively. Large touchscreen with Carplay compatibility, heated and vented memory seats, differential, adaptive suspension, etc. Only significant thing I don’t see available is a HUD. But honestly my last 2 cars had HUD and it’s not a make it or break it deal.
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      09-10-2021, 04:48 PM   #272
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2022 LEXUS IS 500: A NEW BREED OF F SPORT PERFORMANCE

https://pressroom.lexus.com/2022-lex...t-performance/
  • 5.0L V8 delivers 472 hp and 395 lb.-ft. of torque
  • 0-to-60 mph time of 4.4 seconds according to AMCI testing
  • Features include raised front hood, dark chrome window trim and quad exhaust system
  • Exclusive 19-inch Enkei wheels and unique black F SPORT Performance badging
  • First Lexus model in the F SPORT Performance line
  • Starting MSRP of $56,500

PLANO, Texas (September 10, 2021) –The 2021 Lexus IS launched with a slew of design and handling enhancements, making it the best IS to date. It was also designed with the Lexus Driving Signature philosophy under rigorous testing and evaluation at Toyota Technical Center Shimoyama. For many, the front-engine rear-wheel-drive compact sports sedan struck the perfect balance between sportiness and sophistication. However, there is a subset of Lexus guests that represent our most passionate driving enthusiasts, and we heard their message loud and clear: More Power.

Enter the first-ever Lexus IS 500 F SPORT Performance, which dials up the sports sedan formula to 11 with the addition of a powerful 472-horsepower naturally aspirated V8 engine and ferocious quad exhaust system. It expands the IS family and ushers in a new era of F SPORT Performance models that will appeal to passionate driving enthusiasts that crave higher levels of performance over the standard F SPORT Design and Handling models.

The 2022 IS 500 will have a starting MSRP of $56,500, making it highly competitive within the mid-performance segment. The starting price of the of the IS 500 Premium is $61,000, offering customers the same high-output powertrain, with the addition of convenience features like Mark Levinson 17-speaker Premium Surround Sound Audio System, navigation system, panoramic view monitor, triple beam LED headlights and power rear sunshade. The IS 500 Launch Edition will be limited to just 500 units in North America and will have an MSRP of $67,400. The new 2022 IS 500 is expected to arrive in dealerships later this fall.

A Rare Breed: Lexus F SPORT Performance Line

As the first model in the new Lexus F SPORT Performance line, the IS 500 engine provides a boost in displacement and performance over the IS 350’s 3.5-liter V6. With a push of the engine start button, its naturally aspirated 5.0-liter V8 engine roars to life, providing a not-so-subtle reminder that something special lies beneath its raised hood. The IS 500 has a maximum output of 472 horsepower at 7,100 rpm and 395 lb.-ft. of peak torque at 4,800 rpm. Despite the drastically more powerful engine, the vehicle tips the scales at 3,891 pounds, gaining only 143 pounds of additional curb weight over the standard IS 350 F SPORT. The IS 500 delivers a 0-to-60 mph time of 4.4 seconds according to AMCI testing and has an EPA-estimated 25 mpg highway rating. Other IS 500 performance enhancements include a throaty quad exhaust system with dual stacked tail pipes that perfectly amplify the new V8 engine. This exhaust not only sounds ferocious, but is inspired by F models, like the RC F.

IS 500 uses the same eight-speed Sport Direct Shift automatic transmission with lockup torque converter found in the RC F. It also features drive mode select Sport S and Sport S+ found in the IS 350 F SPORT, which provides advanced engine and transmission mapping to enhance performance. In addition, Sport S+ adjusts the amount of EPS steering assist and damping force to deliver sportier handling to match the updated powertrain settings. Custom Mode is also available, offering multiple combinations for powertrain (Normal/Eco/Power), chassis (Normal/Sport) and air conditioner (Normal/Eco).

Starting with the 2022 IS 500, Lexus F SPORT Performance models will come adorned with unique black badging on the sides to distinguish it from F SPORT models.

Building on Lexus Driving Signature

The 2021 IS launched an era of vehicles developed at Toyota Technical Center Shimoyama with a uniform Lexus Driving Signature. Since Lexus launched, the tactile feel, behavior and execution for each model has been driven by the vision and efforts of the Chief Engineer (CE).

Lexus Driving Signature is a key pillar of Next Chapter and represents a fundamental shift in our product development process and culture. Moving forward, the efforts of the CE will be focused on elevating the vehicles to a new standard of performance and handling as developed by Lexus International President and Chief Branding Officer Koji Sato and Master Driver and Brand Holder Akio Toyoda. The ultimate goal is to deliver a new generation of Lexus vehicles that are designed with a shared brand identity that includes responsive and linear control; exceptional handling, grip and confidence; and refined ride quality and quietness. These elements will be realized through rigorous testing and evaluation at the Toyota Technical Center Shimoyama.

The all-new IS 500 builds on the improvements made to the 2021 IS with a focus on delivering confidence and a linear connection between driver and vehicle. The IS 500 will come standard with the IS RWD F SPORT’s Dynamic Handling Package (DHP), which includes Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) and a Torsen® Limited Slip Differential (LSD) that improves handling and performance thanks to enhanced traction when cornering or exiting turns. The LSD helps maintain straight-line stability as well. Engineers have also improved the IS chassis performance with the addition of a Yamaha® Rear Performance Damper. This damper reduces dynamic structural distortion, delivering increased comfort at low speeds, and additional stability and agility at high speeds. Brake cooling enhancements have also been made over the standard IS 350 F SPORT with additional aerodynamic cooling and larger 14.0-inch two-piece aluminum front rotors and 12.7-inch rear rotors.

The Devil’s in the Details

The IS 500 features subtle exterior enhancements to help set it apart from the standard IS 350 F SPORT. The hood has been raised nearly 2 inches and receives sculpted center character lines, while the front bumper and fenders have been lengthened to help accommodate the vehicle’s naturally aspirated V8 muscle. The IS 500 will come standard with exclusive 19-inch split-10-spoke Enkei alloy wheels. Not only are they beautiful and intricate, the wheels are approximately 1 pound lighter per wheel in front and 2 pounds lighter per wheel in the rear, compared to the standard 19-inch F SPORT wheel. Other exterior updates include a revised lower rear diffuser accent that accentuates the quad exhaust system, as well as dark chrome window trim. Tying these visual and performance cues together is the black IS F SPORT rear lip spoiler.

Inside, drivers are greeted with black F SPORT Performance badging on the heated leather-wrapped steering wheel and door sill scuff plates. It also comes standard with the IS F SPORT accelerator pedal, brake pedal and footrest, but the combination instrumentation meter receives an updated startup animation that is exclusive to IS 500.

Enhanced Lexus Safety System+

The IS 500 inherits the updated Lexus Safety System+ 2.5 recently launched on the 2021 IS. A number of key features that are part of the Lexus Safety System+ have been enhanced, along with the addition of a few new features.

For starters, the Pre-Collision System (PCS), which include Frontal Collision Warning (FCW), Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB), Pedestrian Detection and Bicyclist Detection, features an enhancement to the lens camera and millimeter-wave radar elements to expand the response range. By enhancing the radar and camera capabilities, it is now possible for the system to help detect not only the vehicle ahead but also a preceding bicyclist in daytime and even a preceding pedestrian in daytime and low-light conditions. At intersections, the system has the capability under certain conditions to recognize an oncoming vehicle when performing a left-hand turn, or a pedestrian when performing left and right-hand turns, and is designed to activate typical PCS functions if needed. Additional PCS functions include Emergency Steering Assist (ESA), which is designed to assist steering within the vehicle’s lane as cued by the driver.

All-Speed Dynamic Radar Cruise Control (DRCC) can be activated above 30 mph and is designed to perform vehicle-to-vehicle distance controls down to 0 mph and can resume from a stop. DRCC also includes a new feature that allows for smooth overtaking of slower vehicles. If traveling behind a vehicle going slower than the preset speed, once the driver engages the turn signal, the system will provide an initial increase in acceleration in preparation for changing lanes; and, after the driver changes lanes, the vehicle will continue acceleration until it reaches the original preset driving speed.

Lane Departure Alert with Steering Assist (LDA w/ SA) is designed to help notify the driver if it senses an inadvertent lane departure at speeds above 32 miles per hour via steering wheel vibrations or audible alert. It can also take slight corrective measures to help keep the driver within the visibly marked lane. When DRCC is set and engaged, Lane Tracing Assist (LTA) is designed to provide slight steering force to help steer to the center of the lane to assist the driver with staying in the lane using visible lane markers or a preceding vehicle. LTA alerts the driver with a visual warning and either an audible alert or steering wheel vibration. In the new IS, the lane recognition performance, which makes LTA possible, has been improved with enhanced recognition of line and road edge, lateral G performance and enhanced control and stability after lane change.

Additional Lexus Safety System+ 2.5 features include Intelligent High Beams, which detects preceding or oncoming vehicles and automatically switches between high beam and low beam headlights. Road Sign Assist (RSA) is designed to acquire certain road sign information using a camera and navigation maps when data is available and displays them on the multi-information display (MID).

Sporty Color Palette

The 2022 IS 500 will be offered in eight daring exterior colors options, including Ultra White*, Atomic Silver, Cloudburst Gray*, Iridium*, Caviar, Infrared**, Grecian Water and Ultrasonic Blue Mica 2.0**. Inside, owners will be greeted with race-inspired interior featuring a choice Black or White NuLuxe®with Black Geometric trim accents. Select IS 500 exterior colors are also available with a bold Circuit Red NuLuxe®-trimmed interior.

IS 500 Launch Edition: F SPORT Performance with Touch of Distinction

Standing apart from the standard IS 500, the 2022 IS 500 Launch Edition interior builds upon Takumi craftsmanship with elevated interior materials, including sporty two-tone Black/Gray Ultrasuede®-trimmed front and rear seats, door accents and center console. Additionally, the heated leather-wrapped steering wheel receives unique Silver Ash wood treatment with black F SPORT Performance badging, and the interior will be appointed with a serialized Launch Edition badge to further highlight the vehicle’s exclusivity. Moreover, the F SPORT combination instrumentation meter has been updated with an exclusive Launch Edition startup animation to further set this model apart from the standard IS 500.

Outside, the IS 500 Launch Edition is sure to turn heads with standard 19-inch split-seven-spoke forged alloy Matte Black BBS® wheels from the IS F SPORT Dynamic Handling Package. Not only are they impressive looking, the 19-inch BBS® wheels are approximately 4 pounds lighter per wheel compared to the standard 19-inch IS F SPORT wheel. The vehicle will be sold exclusively in Incognito, an all-new color for the Lexus lineup.

2022 Pricing

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      09-11-2021, 09:34 AM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damnitBobby View Post
Just curious what tech is the IS500 missing that is in the M340i, C43, and S4?

I think the starting price at $56,500 is just right for this segment. Yes at first glance the interior may seem dated but it comes equipped competitively. Large touchscreen with Carplay compatibility, heated and vented memory seats, differential, adaptive suspension, etc. Only significant thing I don’t see available is a HUD. But honestly my last 2 cars had HUD and it’s not a make it or break it deal.
I don't think it's the overall lack of tech (besides the HUD), I think it's that everything just feels so old and dated, not in a good way. Like, the NA V8 is a VERY good old and dated thing, but the rest of the car is old and dated in all the wrong ways.

Things missing:
HUD
Ambient Lighting
Leather

I'm sure there's others, but the general feel is that everything is very poorly integrated and old. The infotainment is awful, Lexus' driving and parking assists are very basic whereas BMW's are quite advanced. And the overall controls are poorly placed (i.e. the temperature adjustment in the Lexus is this weird sliding bar). The cupholders are placed in a weird location. And the quality of materials haven't really been updated since 2013.

Imagine if BMW kept the same interior and materials quality since the first year of the F30, while its competitors had all come out with brand new designs.
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      09-11-2021, 09:47 AM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
I don't think it's the overall lack of tech (besides the HUD), I think it's that everything just feels so old and dated, not in a good way. Like, the NA V8 is a VERY good old and dated thing, but the rest of the car is old and dated in all the wrong ways.

Things missing:
HUD
Ambient Lighting
Leather

I'm sure there's others, but the general feel is that everything is very poorly integrated and old. The infotainment is awful, Lexus' driving and parking assists are very basic whereas BMW's are quite advanced. And the overall controls are poorly placed (i.e. the temperature adjustment in the Lexus is this weird sliding bar). The cupholders are placed in a weird location. And the quality of materials haven't really been updated since 2013.

Imagine if BMW kept the same interior and materials quality since the first year of the F30, while its competitors had all come out with brand new designs.
The only thing I personally disagree with you on is leather. Yes it would be nice to have a nappa option, but it's not available in the G20 (in the US) either. I'd happily take NuLuxe over vernasca.
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      09-11-2021, 09:58 AM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burrcold View Post
The only thing I personally disagree with you on is leather. Yes it would be nice to have a nappa option, but it's not available in the G20 (in the US) either. I'd happily take NuLuxe over vernasca.
Yeah I was just listing off things the Lexus doesn't offer. I do agree the Lexus seats are among the comfiest in the class, and I'm not very happy with the seats in my G20. If I end up with a G80 next I'm very much looking forward to the merino leather among other things

My comment about old/dated materials I guess was more to do with the rest of the interior, the dash, controls, etc.
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      09-11-2021, 10:32 AM   #276
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$56k is really good to be honest, right in line with the M340i
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      09-11-2021, 11:35 AM   #277
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I'm pretty sure the CT4-V Blackwing falls in this pricing territory as well, doesn't it?

It would be the one to look for if you're interested in a manual at least. It also isn't going to be as "soft" as the IS.

Edit: Right, I forgot the CT5 is the V8... Carry on, nothing to see here.

Last edited by freakystyly; 09-11-2021 at 11:59 AM..
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      09-11-2021, 11:46 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by freakystyly View Post
I'm pretty sure the CT4-V Blackwing falls in this pricing territory as well, doesn't it?

It would be the one to look for if you're interested in a manual at least. It also isn't going to be as "soft" as the IS.
It does line up in price. You're still not getting the V8 though (and that's what the IS500 is really all about...like it not).
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      09-11-2021, 02:29 PM   #279
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It does line up in price. You're still not getting the V8 though (and that's what the IS500 is really all about...like it not).
…but the Caddy does have a manual option.
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      09-11-2021, 07:07 PM   #280
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…but the Caddy does have a manual option.
Yup. Give some, you take some. I'd never own a Cadillac though.
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      09-11-2021, 08:53 PM   #281
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm impressed. The V8 alone is worth the price of admission....
How so exactly? It's a Lexus for starts which means relatively gutless. And, it's slower than every X3 or X5 M car. Which means it's V8 and 400+ horsepower is worthless.
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      09-11-2021, 09:14 PM   #282
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How so exactly? It's a Lexus for starts which means relatively gutless. And, it's slower than every X3 or X5 M car. Which means it's V8 and 400+ horsepower is worthless.
Your opinion is worth about as much to me as mine is to you, so move along you brave little toaster, and pick a fight somewhere else.
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      09-11-2021, 09:19 PM   #283
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How so exactly? It's a Lexus for starts which means relatively gutless. And, it's slower than every X3 or X5 M car. Which means it's V8 and 400+ horsepower is worthless.
X3m (70k starting) and X5m ($105k starting) are definitely not competitors to an IS500.

The main competitor is the m340i. The general consensus is that while the m340i is quicker, the IS500's NA V8 offers more character. It's not all about spreadsheet numbers.
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      09-11-2021, 09:31 PM   #284
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[QUOTE=wtwo3;28024208]....The main competitor is the m340i. The general consensus is that while the m340i is quicker, the IS500's NA V8 offers more character. .../QUOTE]

Character? That's crap. Car performance is ALL about a) numbers and b) enjoyment. Character is subjective and - irrelevant when you don't know who thinks it has more "character". A two-door sports coupe, producing 472 horses - should perform a LOT better. Again, it's a Lexus so I don't expect more. It can't even compete with a M40i at $60K.

Last edited by DenverSteve; 09-11-2021 at 09:39 PM..
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      09-11-2021, 10:02 PM   #285
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[QUOTE=DenverSteve;28024237]
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
....The main competitor is the m340i. The general consensus is that while the m340i is quicker, the IS500's NA V8 offers more character. .../QUOTE]

Character? That's crap. Car performance is ALL about a) numbers and b) enjoyment. Character is subjective and - irrelevant when you don't know who thinks it has more "character". A two-door sports coupe, producing 472 horses - should perform a LOT better. Again, it's a Lexus so I don't expect more. It can't even compete with a M40i at $60K.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Automakers are chasing performance numbers at the EXPENSE of fun and enjoyment. If you really want performance numbers go get an EV. What creates "character" is the drama that comes from the delivery of power and how the car makes you feel. Simply chasing performance numbers starts to become a clinical exercise over what makes cars fun - which is the mechanical connection.

In that regards it's no secret that NA motors typically offer a lot more character. And Lexus' V8 is renowned. Watch any review of the LC500 and people practically have orgasms when they hear that 5L V8 sing. Those smiles and giggles are derived from character. An LC500 is a very mediocre performer, but I don't think a single review exists where it doesn't put a smile on the reviewer's face. And I'm not armchair critiquing here, I've driven it myself numerous times and yes, that Lexus NA V8 has a ton more character than a turbo charged motor is capable of giving.
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      09-11-2021, 10:08 PM   #286
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If this were a Lexus forum, I might be right there with you. However, after sampling every luxury car over the past decade and owning many of the best...I'll let you enjoy your Lexus whenever you get one (that's what one does when one believes in the marque) and I'll stick with what I believe is the better option - BMW all day.
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