[ZenDriver]

I find it interesting that there are two very long threads on this Board discussing BMW 3-Series cars vs. the little Lexus. The cars aren't direct competitors except for the rough dimensions and the price point. BMW's threat from Japan is from Infinity and DB's threat is from Lexus. What say we talk about something more relevant?

What on earth are you talking about? Lexus has repeatedly stated that the new IS is aimed directly at BMW's 3 series stronghold. As enthusiasts, we recognize a finer grained demarcation of the market, but 95% of the people who buy these cars are not enthusiasts.

It took me a long time to wrap my head around this, but what I am about to say is true- most people buying a 3 series are schmucks with $30k or so in their pockets who need a new car. They know little about cars, care little about cars beyond wanting to look nice in one and have everybody Ohhh and Ahhh whenthey tell the folks around the watercooler they just bought a new BMW/Audi/Mercedes/Lexus/Infiniti. They refer to acceleration as "Pickup," good handling is implied by somewhat weighty steering and they actually care about that crash rating nonsense. Most of these people don't even like driving.

This is what Lexus figured out LONG ago and it is why they have done so well. While BMW and Mercedes blather on about DTC/EPS/ABS v28/Valvetronic/Steptronic/SMG... most car buyers really want to hear that the dealership isn't gonna try to fuck them in the ass, that the car is going to be reliable and that it isn't gonna blow up or kill them somehow. Lexus knows this and they make very nice, very precise, soulless cars for the blathering masses of folks who really honestly don't like cars very much.

Honestly, this is why I like the new IS. Hopefully it will siphon off some of the flock of morons who have been snatching up 3 series cars for no other reason then the single copy of Motor Trend they picked up when car shopping said it was so good.

[wolke9]

After recently seeing and sitting in the new IS 250/350, I know for certain that the new 3 series is the vehicle for me--beyond any shadow of a doubt. I ended up talking to a BMW sales rep about the new IS just the other night and we both concluded that the BMW is the "luxurious" side of sport while the Lexus is trying to be the "sporty" side of luxury in an automobile. Unfortunately for Lexus, it takes more than a dose of HP/Torque and improved handling to be a true drivers car. BMW does a much better job of providing a much more balanced vehicle to drive while adding some bells and whistles for the techno-geek in all of us. Those who favor driving and road feel will most likely go for the BMW while those who put an emphasis on luxury appointments and bling will go w/ the Lexus. (Just my opinion of course).

On an unrelated note. . .The salesperson also told me that he could negotiate off of ED price. . SWEET!! Now all I have to do is save up the $$. This is going to be a painful year for me while I save. The E90 board will have to do until then, I guess.

Thank goodness i have this outlet, though. . .Cheers to all!

[wolke9]

Originally Posted by ZenDriver

What on earth are you talking about? Lexus has repeatedly stated that the new IS is aimed directly at BMW's 3 series stronghold. As enthusiasts, we recognize a finer grained demarcation of the market, but 95% of the people who buy these cars are not enthusiasts.

It took me a long time to wrap my head around this, but what I am about to say is true- most people buying a 3 series are schmucks with $30k or so in their pockets who need a new car. They know little about cars, care little about cars beyond wanting to look nice in one and have everybody Ohhh and Ahhh whenthey tell the folks around the watercooler they just bought a new BMW/Audi/Mercedes/Lexus/Infiniti. They refer to acceleration as "Pickup," good handling is implied by somewhat weighty steering and they actually care about that crash rating nonsense. Most of these people don't even like driving.

This is what Lexus figured out LONG ago and it is why they have done so well. While BMW and Mercedes blather on about DTC/EPS/ABS v28/Valvetronic/Steptronic/SMG... most car buyers really want to hear that the dealership isn't gonna try to fuck them in the ass, that the car is going to be reliable and that it isn't gonna blow up or kill them somehow. Lexus knows this and they make very nice, very precise, soulless cars for the blathering masses of folks who really honestly don't like cars very much.

Honestly, this is why I like the new IS. Hopefully it will siphon off some of the flock of morons who have been snatching up 3 series cars for no other reason then the single copy of Motor Trend they picked up when car shopping said it was so good.

Hopefully we'll gain another 2% on top of the 5% once some the buyers realize what a fantastic car the 3 is to DRIVE. . . .

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by NaTuReB0Y

Who sells the most luxury cars in America?
I guess the award goes to the people's choice.....

While this may be true in the US, it certainly isn't in many other markets. Without wanting to offend US people on this post - who are the exceptions to this I believe - the US isn't generally regarded as a driver's market, hence the plethora of SUVs and average cars.

In other markets where driving is of a higher priority like Australia or Europe, the Lexus does not rate well in the sales stakes in the Luxury market.

Buy a Lexus - I would rather strap heroin to my body and greet the sniffer dogs at the Thailand airport!

[NaTuReB0Y]

No more comment.....gotta get back to my poker game!

[JVFan]

I just can't take a PowerRanger fan seriously. It feels like a debate with a 7 year old.

[lux.sh]

Last I checked, he is a man with a family of his own. (i think)
JVFan, no need for that.

[NaTuReB0Y]

Hey....I was just Phoking with guys....

I love my E90.....JVFan....you figured it out!

[lux.sh]

ah i want some pho now.

[RyBMW]

The new IS350 is directly aimed at the 330i in Lexus' opinion, but in the enthusiasts's opinion it's not. The only reason being the lack of a manual.
Maybe in a year they will offer it.

The only true competitor, IMHO, is the Infiniti G35. The next gen G35 will be something to look forward to.

There's no need to bash other car makers. If it wasn't for competition, do you think your E90 would be what it is today? True car enthusiasts loves all cars, not just one brand.
Buy what you like, what you need, what you desire. Don't ever buy a car based on the name. If you're not open minded, you will never know what you missed.

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by JVFan

I just can't take a PowerRanger fan seriously. It feels like a debate with a 7 year old.

Hey JV a personal comment like that isn't good. His children love PowerRangers and in my book, if I had children, then anything that made them happy (within reason) I would be a fan of too. I know from my nephews, nothing warms the heart more than the smile of a happy child.

I did note in one of his posts that he drew a line at Barbie or whatever it was his daughter loves.

[MB330]

ZENDRIVER - You are right on 100% and more (if this possible).
Many moons back some smart guy told my - Mercedes - is a car for passengers. They Enjoy ride in this car. BMW - is a car for a driver. Hi is the one who enjoy when driving this car.

[RyBMW]

Originally Posted by JamieA

Hey JV a personal comment like that isn't good. His children love PowerRangers and in my book, if I had children, then anything that made them happy (within reason) I would be a fan of too. I know from my nephews, nothing warms the heart more than the smile of a happy child.

I did note in one of his posts that he drew a line at Barbie or whatever it was his daughter loves.

Well said.

[MB330]

Originally Posted by wolke9

After recently seeing and sitting in the new IS 250/350, I know for certain that the new 3 series is the vehicle for me--beyond any shadow of a doubt. I ended up talking to a BMW sales rep about the new IS just the other night and we both concluded that the BMW is the "luxurious" side of sport while the Lexus is trying to be the "sporty" side of luxury in an automobile. Unfortunately for Lexus, it takes more than a dose of HP/Torque and improved handling to be a true drivers car. BMW does a much better job of providing a much more balanced vehicle to drive while adding some bells and whistles for the techno-geek in all of us. Those who favor driving and road feel will most likely go for the BMW while those who put an emphasis on luxury appointments and bling will go w/ the Lexus. (Just my opinion of course).

I got the same filling. After I have a hard time get in on back seat of I350 (even if I never seat there after I buy this car) - I drive to near BMW dealer - test drive 325 and 330 - at this moment I knew what will be my next car. This happen after 3 years of dreaming about Acura TL parking in my garage.

[Ioman]

Originally Posted by RyBMW

The new IS350 is directly aimed at the 330i in Lexus' opinion, but in the enthusiasts's opinion it's not. The only reason being the lack of a manual.
Maybe in a year they will offer it.

The only true competitor, IMHO, is the Infiniti G35. The next gen G35 will be something to look forward to.

There's no need to bash other car makers. If it wasn't for competition, do you think your E90 would be what it is today? True car enthusiasts loves all cars, not just one brand.
Buy what you like, what you need, what you desire. Don't ever buy a car based on the name. If you're not open minded, you will never know what you missed.

Agreed. I have been arguing this point in the other forums about the lack of a manual in the IS350. Driving enthusiasts really prefer a manual, it took Infiniti a while to catch on. I love my E90 and the way it drives. I wish it had a short-throw shifter though. My previous car, an RX8 was not the fastest on the road, but man was it fun to drive. There is more to a car than straight line performance.

[phantom701]

Originally Posted by JamieA

The US isn't generally regarded as a driver's market.

Hmm.... how did you come up with that??

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by phantom701

Hmm.... how did you come up with that??

Hmmm.... How can I put this??

I look at what you produce domestically for your own consumption - GM and Ford cars. American cars are not known the world over as being dynamic, they are known as better suited to highway cruising on smooth roads, because Americans are known to prefer softer more floaty suspension settings, and it is a fact that many brands put softer suspensions on their cars exported to the US to suit local tastes, unless like BMW they are targeting a different and specific market segment.

Of course there are exceptions, that is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is the average car purchased by the average consumer. What part of SUV market dominance speaks to a driving population preferring high levels of driving dynamics?

Europeans value dynamic capability. So do Australians on the whole, because the vehicles that succeed in this market generally have European biased suspension settings over US biased ones. Almost without exception, every car that has come here with softer US suspension settings has not done well in our market because they don't handle well enough for Australian road conditions.

Case in point - Honda Accord - we get two, one known as the Accord Euro which is a driver oriented car, and one which has been nicknamed in the motoring press as the Accord Seppo which is a floaty boulevard cruiser made and designed by Honda for the US market. Guess which one Honda has trouble shifting (the US one) and guess which one sells faster than they can get their hands on - the Euro. Now what is interesting is that the Accord Euro is sold as an Acura in the US and guess which car seems to be popular with people from the E90 forum - confirming what I said at the outset - no one from this forum belongs to the "average" group I was referring to - if you were you would have an MB right?

Want to know dynamic benchmark Australians prefer - the Pontiac GTO aka Holden Monaro uses essentially the same set up as the Holden Commodore donor car which is the best selling family car in Australia.

My original comment wasn't and shouldn't be taken as a slight on the US, merely an observation of mine and nearly eveyone I know who has driven in the US vs Europe or Australia about what the average US consumer likes and what suits the road conditions in the US. This includes the two eminent motoring journals in Australia, Wheels, and Motor Magazine.

Others in the forum (from the US) have made the same observation in relation to explaining Lexus' success in the US - just a car to get from A to B. And this is what my original point was about - Americans prefer comfortable cars over ones that drive dynamically well, hence Lexus sells more than BMW in the US market, but not in others that have a majority preference for dynamic capability.

I hope this answers your question.

[JBOO]

Excellent oberservation Jamie. I completely agree. Well done!

[phantom701]

Originally Posted by JamieA

I hope this answers your question.

I appreciate your explanation. I was trying to understand your definition about "driver's market". If you only look from the suspesion perspective, then you might be right.

I was thinking more from the actual market size (in $$$) and how people use their cars here. In the USA, cars are absolutely the main or the only mode of transportation in this country. A vast systems of roads and freeways span across the country. People go to work, vacation, etc all on their cars.

BTW, FYI, SUVs are popular, but they are by no mean market dominance.

I'm sure our Japanese friends would take offense when it comes to your calling their vehicles "soft". The Infiniti, Lexus are making vehicles that do not fall into your generalization. The reasons why Japanese cars are doing extremely well here is because of the superior build and quality. Camrys, Accords sell very well here not because of suspension appreciation.

And why are Audis, which many on this board considered a sissy car, would sell better than the BMWs in EU? Is it because Europeans also enjoy the softer side of things?

[JamieA]

Originally Posted by phantom701

I appreciate your explanation. I was trying to understand your definition about "driver's market". If you only look from the suspesion perspective, then you might be right.

I was thinking more from the actual market size (in $$$) and how people use their cars here. In the USA, cars are absolutely the main or the only mode of transportation in this country. A vast systems of roads and freeways span across the country. People go to work, vacation, etc all on their cars.

BTW, FYI, SUVs are popular, but they are by no mean market dominance.

I'm sure our Japanese friends would take offense when it comes to your calling their vehicles "soft". The Infiniti, Lexus are making vehicles that do not fall into your generalization. The reasons there are different Accords, Camrys, etc is not the simplistic reasons you spelled out.

And why are Audis, which many on this board considered a sissy car, would sell better than the BMWs in EU? Is it because Europeans also enjoy the softer side of things?

I agree with you that the US is a car dependent market, much like the Australian market is with vast distancs to cover. You are right though I was talking about "drivers' market" in terms of a market which values dynamic capability. It seems that we were at cross purposes there.

The Japanese cars you refer to are made for the US market, and US tastes. As I said they put different suspension settings in them when they are sold in other markets. The reasons there are different cars and configurations you are quite correct isn't just suspension tune but a vast array of items relating to the tastes of specific markets, and the economic realities of global manufacture in this day and age. This actually underscores my point, that cars are in fact configured differently for the US (as they are for a number of markets) and one of these changes is usually setting the suspension tune to more "comfortable" settings.

As for Audis they are far from soft. In fact their suspensions are unusually hard to try and compensate for their dynamic deficiencies, so hard in fact that they can loosen teeth over rough roads, as the UK (and Australian) press never tires of telling people. This produces good dynamics on smooth roads, but very poor ride quality on roads outside Germany. Audi it seems, haven't learned BMW's trick of a taught yet compliant suspension yet. Hence I switched brands. Having said that, the average Audi still handles better than your average GM or Ford I would suspect.

[db17k]

I wouldn't say one manufacturer is better than the other, I would say that the two companys are slightly geared in different directions. That being Lexus is more luxury oriented with fairly competitive performance numbers and BMW is more performance oriented and slightly less luxury focused. It's easy to knock Lexus because essentially it's a high end toyota, but if you've driven ES300 you'd never know it was a toyota.

[cntlaw]

Originally Posted by brad4221x

I bought an E90 but before doing so I test drove a IS250. The lexus had no soul.

Thanks ! That 's What I want to hear , 'actual experience'.
Anyway, I thought about IS250 might be something new to try; but it never came here . And I tested A3 Sportback - nice too, but after I tested 325i E90 - whoa ! This is the car for the man !
I can't tell whether a IS250 is as good or not , as I dont have chance to test drive ; but based on the look , IS always look "kids cars".
The best Toyota is MR-2 and MR-S.